Men want "macho songs" in church

[Sarabande]

Hello everyone,
I have just read scottywolf’s reply to this post, never mind the survey, why drag sex into a discussion about songs?. As an englishman I can assure you I or no one I know, and I know a lot of people of various social standing, have ever said “good show old dear after having sex”. I think he and a lot more americans have been watching too many 1930’s movies where all the leading actors were upper class , Eton and Harrow public school educated. Newsreels at that time and well into the 60’s were all narrated by well educated and articulate people,mostly men.
In England there are many regional accents,some even us natives have a hard time understanding, but I can assure you we do NOT all talk in the manner scottywolf 777 seems to think!
God Bless,
Mick.

Hi English Guy! Don’t worry. As an American, I can also assure you that there are many people here who do not think in that stereotype. I love England and was fortunate enough to have met many different and wonderful “Engish Guys and Gals” of various backgrounds while studying there for a semester, and have been back a few times since - including our honeymoon I loved it so much. (It also made my husband a lover of the UK ) God Bless YOU!!!

 

[english_guy]

Hello again,
Many thanks for your kind replies, Sarabande, what a lovely reply!!, I am so glad you and your husband like the u.k… I have visited Florida four times and found people to be very nice and polite, I have not been to a church there so I cannot comment on any macho songs i’m afraid, but hopefully one day I will. Thank you for making my day!!.
God Bless,
Mick.

 

[Jacafamala]

I have six brothers. And if it’s a choice between a hymn like Be Thou My Vision, with lines like:

“Be Thou my breastplate, my sword for the fight,
Be Thou my armor and be Thou my might,”

and a song like Hosea, with lines like:

“Come back to me with all your heart, don’t let fear keep us apart,”

do I even have to say which one they would prefer?

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

At least the stereotypes those few Americans have about the UK came from Dickens novels or 1930’s movies rather than from awful 1990’s TV shows like “Absolutely Fabulous.” It is similar to the way many British people don’t seem to be able to discuss Germany or Germans without some reference to WWII.

Scottywolf, you’re thinking of “What is this Place?,” written by the expelled Dutch Jesuit priest and current Netherlands Socialist party leader Huub Oosterhuis, set to the delightful tune Kömt nu met Zang. A lovely melody with truly awful lyrics:
What is this place where we are meeting?
Only a house, the earth its floor,
Walls and a roof sheltering people,
Windows for light, an open door.
Yet it becomes a body that lives
When we are gathered here, And know our God is near.
Words from afar, stars that are falling,
Sparks that are sown in us like seed.
Names for our God, dreams, signs and wonders
Sent from the past are all we need.
We in this place remember and speak
Again what we have heard: God’s free redeeming word.
And we accept bread at his table,
Broken and shared, a living sign.
Here in this world, dying and living,
We are each other’s bread and wine.
This is the place where we can receive
What we need to increase: Our* justice and God’s peace.

*recently changed to “God’s”

 

[Jenny_Z]

I’m a girl, and I wouldn’t mind less of the “touchy feely feel good” music.

 

[Guitar]

This is not the first time I heard of this. Actually, it was less than a year ago, when the subject came up in a discussion and how a couple of the priests we knew talked about the what they called “feminine” hymns and other actions, how it may drive males away. These priests (young-ish priests in their late 30s/early 40s) thought that male Catholics had been neglected and that too much of the newer hymns were too “feminine” and “feel-good”.

I didn’t really think much about it then, as I personally don’t like most of the newer hymns either, and I’m a woman.

I tend to object to this attitude that “I’m a man and I don’t wanna sing this” = “this music is feminised”.

 

[Sarabande]

I tend to object to this attitude that “I’m a man and I don’t wanna sing this” = “this music is feminised”.

I wonder why those priests and other men think of it in that sense. Any of the men out there can give their personal views on it - speaking as a man? Even though my father and other men I know prefer the hymns with a more direct and strong rhythm and tend to bellow out better with the traditional hymns and do sing more sweetly with the newer hymns - they still sing both kinds, unless the hymn is just so bad.

As I think about this more, it may have more to do with an attitude towards singing in general. It seems, and this is not scientific - just an observation, that more men do not sing compared to women in church. Doesn’t matter whether or not it is a “traditional” hymn or a “new” hymn. There are parishes that mix both kinds and I’ve stood next to plenty of men and boys who don’t sing either, nor the responses or anything else that has to do with singing. There might be a subconcious belief that singing is “girl-y” and “dorky”. I think about when I directed children’s choir and taught music in classroom. The younger you went, the more equal the children of both sexes were apt to sing. As the boys got older, it took more work to get them to feel comfortable opening their mouths, while the girls continued on with the singing. They didn’t want to look “dorky” or “uncool” to the other boys. I saw this start around my 5th graders. The boys from pre-K to 4th grade were still good singers.

When I was in grade school back in the 80s and 90s I remember the same thing. My brother and I were both in choir, but as we got older, he eventually dropped out since none of the other boys in his grade were doing it. I remember once in a while other boys saying that singing in the choir was “gay”. And now, I wonder how much of that attitude and belief spills over into adulthood for men. (Edit… one particular hymn which was really popular when I was in school was this hymn - can’t remember the title - but the words were “Come dance in the forest, come play in the fields. And sing, sing to the glory of the Lord.” It was a very “prancy” type of melody and I remember some of my classmates, especially from 5th-8th grade thinking that the hymn was really, what they called “gay”. BTW - I hate using that term. I’m just repeating what those boys would say.)

In college and in secular choirs, it was always harder to get males to join choir. Well, not so much in the college choirs, since everyone was a music major and you always had the voice majors and then the required choral classes. The straight men who tended to join these choirs were more of sensitive types who were in touch with both their male and female sides. They were very much typical men, but had no problem showing their sensitivity and emotion. My husband, for instance, was a wonderful choral singer and loves music very much. He is very much in touch with his sensitive side.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m a girl, and I wouldn’t mind less of the “touchy feely feel good” music.

I’m a girl and I don’t like this kind of music either. I believe that the music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should have a strong element of the sacred in it. It should be dignified, solemn, sublime, beautiful and be doctrinally, liturgically and theologically correct.

I love Duran Duran, David Bowie and Pat Benator. But, I certainly do not want to hear that genre during the Mass. We should not have to conform our liturgies to the cultural whims of the day. The Church is in the world, but, she is not of the world.

 

[scottywolf777]

At least the stereotypes those few Americans have about the UK came from Dickens novels or 1930’s movies rather than from awful 1990’s TV shows like “Absolutely Fabulous.” It is similar to the way many British people don’t seem to be able to discuss Germany or Germans without some reference to WWII.

Scottywolf, you’re thinking of “What is this Place?,” written by the expelled Dutch Jesuit priest and current Netherlands Socialist party leader Huub Oosterhuis, set to the delightful tune Kömt nu met Zang. A lovely melody with truly awful lyrics:
What is this place where we are meeting?
Only a house, the earth its floor,
Walls and a roof sheltering people,
Windows for light, an open door.
Yet it becomes a body that lives
When we are gathered here, And know our God is near.
Words from afar, stars that are falling,
Sparks that are sown in us like seed.
Names for our God, dreams, signs and wonders
Sent from the past are all we need.
We in this place remember and speak
Again what we have heard: God’s free redeeming word.
And we accept bread at his table,
Broken and shared, a living sign.
Here in this world, dying and living,
We are each other’s bread and wine.
This is the place where we can receive
What we need to increase: Our* justice and God’s peace.

*recently changed to “God’s”

Yes, I do beleive it was something like that. I never got much past the first verse anyway. The OCP were passing it off as a “Dutch reform” song and not some sort of socialist worker’s song. I pictured folks in Pilgrim outfits out of a Rembrandt painting not a groups of disgruntled socialists singing this since it soulds like a song from that time period especially that bit about a “house with a dirt floor.” Even Karl Marx (the funniest of the Marx Brothers) had carpeting in the ratholes he lived in when he ran short of money. I’d rather sing the Internationale than this thing. It has a cathchy tune and upbeat lyrics about fighting oppression and such.

 

[Brendan]

What is a ‘macho church song?’ (is that code for traditional?)

The First thing that came to mind for me was “To Jesus Christ Our Soverign King”

Nothing mushy there

 

[JPUSC]

Any of the men out there can give their personal views on it - speaking as a man?

We don’t have a singing problem. :jrbirdman:

youtube.com/watch?v=OyIBfbmn6PU
youtube.com/watch?v=xhVxfI5OjMc
youtube.com/watch?v=I5gYxe6tSHA
youtube.com/watch?v=rTevEy9Rzv4

Why is it so?

Dominant negative expectations: in our culture, it appears to be a generally held truth that it is only exceptional men that can sing (a self-fulfilling ‘truth’, if ever there was one). Boys grow up in a climate in which it is not expected that they will be able to sing, in which singing is not highly valued, in which singing is not encouraged. It is no surprise therefore that they don’t or that they do badly.

Peer pressure: it’s a boy thing to deride activities perceived to be sissy, woosy, dorky, and uncool. Even though most male teenagers may aspire to becoming pop music stars, it would appear that no connection is made between this dream and, for example, being in the local church choir, or heaven forbid, standing around with a bunch of girls singing songs about peace and love.

Fear of appearing foolish: it is only the exceptional child that wishes to stand out from the group. Most of us want to blend in, to be part of the furniture. And, especially, we don’t want to be noticed for getting it wrong. Singing ‘badly’ is a surefire way of attracting scorn and derision.

Male/female differentiations: obviously many of the pressures expressed above apply to girls as well. Quite why girls appear to be able to transcend them more effectively was discussed, but no conclusions reached.

The breaking voice: this unique male experience can be, and often is, traumatic. In some cultures (eg, the Welsh) boy singers are encouraged to take a break from singing while their new voice settles in; in others they are permanently banished from the group (eg, the boy’s church choirs). In others, they are encouraged to force their voices to continue to sing in high registers (this may be what is happening in contemporary pop music - see below). It appears that many men just never recover from this experience.

Excellence victims: it seems that men are particularly susceptible to prevailing ideologies of excellence. That is, that unless one is really, really good at something it’s better not to do it at all.

Gender victims: most mixed group singing ensembles are predominantly women (and most singing leaders are women). There is a tendency for men to end up feeling like shags on rocks, just tolerated observers of women’s business.

Unattractive repertoire: there is a suspicion that the current repertoire of the group singing community is not hugely attractive to the average bloke.

Poor marketing: community singing has not been generally promoted in ways likely to attract blokes.

cmv.customer.netspace.net.au/MenSing.html

Here are some additional questions: how come men in crowds sing with such uninhibited enjoyment at football and rugby matches? (Tradition? Alcohol? Vicarious sports euphoria?) Why is it that in Scotland, Ireland and famously in Wales men sing in choirs and pubs and at each other’s homes as a matter or course? Why do scaffolders tend to sing with such abandon, suggesting that they feel invisible even at their most visible? Why do my teenage sons think it is somehow “girlie” to sing in choirs when one is a music scholar and the other is heavily into bands that favour vocal harmony? The mysterious male ego seems to enter the equation, too.

…

Frostick gets his “reluctant” boys to name as many male singers as they can; all styles, from Top Ten pop to jazz, rock and classical. Once the board is covered with names, he looks them in the eye and says: “Now tell me that singing isn’t a male thing.”

ginnydougary.co.uk/2006/12/23/men-and-singing-why-we-need-vocal-heroes/

 

[wynd]

I haven’t been to an RC Mass in a long time, but what I do remember is there was only a treble clef for all the songs, which were in a very high key and used mainly the upper half of the staff. Maybe the men just aren’t physically capable of singing like that? I’ve browsed through old Baptist hymnals and even they have solid bass and tenor parts for the men.

 

[Sarabande]

I haven’t been to an RC Mass in a long time, but what I do remember is there was only a treble clef for all the songs, which were in a very high key and used mainly the upper half of the staff. Maybe the men just aren’t physically capable of singing like that? I’ve browsed through old Baptist hymnals and even they have solid bass and tenor parts for the men.

That is a problem. Most Catholic hymnals do not have 4-part harmonies, so that those who read music could sing the harmonization. Problem is, how many Catholics actually know how to read music to even take advantage of the bass cleff.

That said, most hymns sit in the middle register so that the majority of people can sing them. Of course, you’ll have that Russian bass guy sitting next to you, but he’ll just sing an octave lower. haha! I would be naive to say that there aren’t any cantors or instrumentalists out there who don’t think about the congregation when they do the music and transpose the hymns in a higher key so that the tessitura sits too high for the average person to sing. I know that there are and have attended mass at different parishes to witness it, although it’s rare. But in general, most hymns do sit in average registers and a comfortable tessitura. I will say as a female trained singer, through the years there have been many men and women who approached me after mass to thank me for helping them pray and to thank me for not singing in a “higher key” so that they can also sing. The funny thing is that I actually do not change the keys of any of the hymns that the other female cantors sing. I remember my dad once complaining about “how high” the female cantor was singing and I had to tell him that it was actually in the same exact key that we always sing it. When I started to sing in the same key to demonstrate, he realized it was the singer because he was able to sing along with me fine. So, it might just be the way the cantors are singing the music to make it feel and sound higher than it actually is.

 

[Sarabande]

We don’t have a singing problem. :jrbirdman:

youtube.com/watch?v=OyIBfbmn6PU
youtube.com/watch?v=xhVxfI5OjMc
youtube.com/watch?v=I5gYxe6tSHA
youtube.com/watch?v=rTevEy9Rzv4

Hahahaha! I totally agree.

Kidding aside, the link you provided on men’s singing is very good. I think it has a lot of truth in it and it pretty much echos what I observed in my own experience. Again, I think it is the attitude that men have towards singing in general.

One of my male friends who is a choir director and organist says he has learned various approaches in directing and teaching his female and male choir members. The males tend to like it when the director is much more straight forward with corrections and what they need to do with their parts in the choir. They don’t go for the sensitive approach and don’t respond to improving what they were doing wrong. The women, if he treated them the same way as the men, many would take it personally and don’t improve either. So, he has to be more sensitive towards the way he corrects them, almost working his way around it so that he can get what he needs from the women or individual women. Of course, there are exceptions.

 

[scottywolf777]

Hello everyone,
I have just read scottywolf’s reply to this post, never mind the survey, why drag sex into a discussion about songs?. As an englishman I can assure you I or no one I know, and I know a lot of people of various social standing, have ever said “good show old dear after having sex”. I think he and a lot more americans have been watching too many 1930’s movies where all the leading actors were upper class , Eton and Harrow public school educated. Newsreels at that time and well into the 60’s were all narrated by well educated and articulate people,mostly men.
In England there are many regional accents,some even us natives have a hard time understanding, but I can assure you we do NOT all talk in the manner scottywolf 777 seems to think!
God Bless,
Mick./QUOTEI was
I was countering a sterotype with a steroetype of what one thinks of when one thinks of brittish men in church as a pythonesque joke. I’m sorry that you were offended. I also know quite well from BBC America that there are different kinds of brittish men. I thought this thead was a joke and so my sardonic sense of humour (spelling intended) is often not understood. I also know that there are folks like the late Cardinal Hume of London who can make all of us sound like dock workers in any country.I have no idea what he said at World Youth Day when he came to Denver. I was absolutely entralled with his manner of diction. He probably could have read the most vile vulgar pornography (not that he would) and make it sound like Shakespeare:thumbsup: I actually find the term macho as applied to men an offensive stereotype. By the way the only thing i have in common with Popeye there is that I actually like spinach (cooked) even occasionally straight out of the can which was a propaganda trick to get kids especially boys here to eat spinach.
Frankly I don’t care what Brittish men want in church in Brittain. I don’t live there and that was my reaction to a study of what Brittish men want in church. If brittish anglicanism is as messed up as the american episcopalianism I left in 1985 I’m glad I came back and don’t live in England no offense intended. to our english friend there. I also hope that the women priests in England aren’t all Fr Geraldine from Vicar of Dibley. Cute and funny but, theologically quite a problem. Certainly an add for an all male priesthood if I ever saw one.

 

[Joan_M]

What is a ‘macho church song?’ (is that code for traditional?)

I would think that “Onward Christian Soldiers” would qualify as a “macho church song”.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

To quote from that article:​

• **A majority of men, 60 percent, said they do not like flowers and embroidered banners in church with 52 percent saying they do not like dancing in church. **

---

Comments gathered from the survey of 400 UK readers of the men’s magazine Sorted also showed many did not like hugging, holding hands or sitting in circles discussing their feelings in church.

Flowers are permitted; the others have no place in the Mass - so good for them. At charismatic services (one thinks here of such movements as SpringHarvest) dancing may well have a place, but non-Catholics cannot be expected to be Catholics; nor contrarywise.

BTW - the Mass is different from other services; they and it cannot be lumped together. Odd as it may seem, the Holy Liturgy is not the place to “discuss [one’s] feelings”. No, really - the Mass is for adoring God. But the article is probably by someone who has no idea of what Evangelicals & charismatics anyway - “discussing…feelings” sounds like an hostile or ignorant description of “giving one’s testimony”. With very few exceptions, the UK press wouldn’t know redemption by the Blood of Christ from the back of a Popemobile. People in the States have no idea just how ignorant of the most basic Christian truths the Press over here is. They know more about Buddhism & Sikhism, & they have more sympathy for Wiccans. But for Christians & Christian faith ? Forget it. This place needs evangelising - & not by any “televangelists”. They are too ignorant to help.

 

[Beachcomber]

For ‘macho’ songs, I’d recommend a Baptist hymnal. I worked at a Christian conference center for several years and one regular group we hosted was a statewide convention of Baptist men. Those guys could really belt the songs out.

And, personally, I don’t much like the touchy-feely songs either.

 

[scottywolf777]

Now that I’ve gotten that off my chest, let’s talk about what I really would like to say. I survived the American catholic church of the 70’s after recovering and returning to the one of the 80’s and beyond. I was subjected to non-biblical “old testament” readings like Robert Frost who while a good poet is probably not divinely inspired. We also sang “Leaving on a Jet Plane” and John Denver at Mass. I remember many a sermon (before we insisted on calling them homilies) telling me not to eat lettuce with rarely if ever having the name of Jesus or even his Mother mentioned. Since I’m not much of a salad fan i could abide with that. In college, we even had a catholic chaplain who used experimental canons for mass. I would always strainingly listen to make sure the words of consecration appeared in there somewhere. Needless to say I wandered off to high church anglicanism since it at least looked and sounded more catholic. What brought me back was the anglicanism I found in college and that I found when I came home were very different animals. It was a laissez faire attitude about celebrating the eucharist. If Father didn’t feel like it we would have morning prayer a poor substitute especially in a charismaticly incline parish. i even assisted an ordinary lay person who celebrated the service when Father was on vacation. To me that was liturgically bizarre.
What finally brought me back as the absolute final straw was finding the tabernacle I was genueflecting to was empty. That coupled with the prayers of a saintly German nun who was browbeating God on my behalf. These nuns really did too. “Lord, You Vill give me dis und You vill give me dis now!” I actually heard one old nun say that to the Lord during vespers with them!:
Compared to these two worlds the church that I returned to was a much safer harbour inspite of singing “we are daughters of day” in a hymn or two!
Incidentally in my deranged head, “daughters of day” and “sons of the morning” sound like names of some sort of masonic or even moonie like cult. I can see those Daughters of Day who are actually men at the airport with their tamborines selling flowers. now.

 

[LilyM]

That said, most hymns sit in the middle register so that the majority of people can sing them. **Of course, you’ll have that Russian bass guy sitting next to you, but he’ll just sing an octave lower. haha! ** I would be naive to say that there aren’t any cantors or instrumentalists out there who don’t think about the congregation when they do the music and transpose the hymns in a higher key so that the tessitura sits too high for the average person to sing. I know that there are and have attended mass at different parishes to witness it, although it’s rare. **But in general, most hymns do sit in average registers and a comfortable tessitura. **

:nope: :nope: and again :nope: comfortable for sopranos and men (who as you say can sing an octave lower), not for us contraltos who don’t have extensive voice training and also can’t reach low enough to keep up with the dudes. We end up having to switch octaves in the high sections, which is awful. Since most sopranos can much more comfortably sing in a lower range, even a significantly lower one than their normal, than contraltos in a higher range, at a minimum put EVERY song down a good half octave.

I will say as a female trained singer, through the years there have been many men and women who approached me after mass to thank me for helping them pray and to thank me for not singing in a “higher key” so that they can also sing. The funny thing is that I actually do not change the keys of any of the hymns that the other female cantors sing. I remember my dad once complaining about “how high” the female cantor was singing and I had to tell him that it was actually in the same exact key that we always sing it. When I started to sing in the same key to demonstrate, he realized it was the singer because he was able to sing along with me fine. So, it might just be the way the cantors are singing the music to make it feel and sound higher than it actually is.

I’ve heard of these tricks. They do NOT work - except for those who don’t know their own range which I do - when the average soprano cantor is up there doing her Sutherland impersonation.