Mental Illness: Faulty Neuro-Circuitry or Spiritual/Demonic Component?

[Gratias_Grace]

Maggie:

If you suffer from mental illness or know someone who does, get on your knees and go to God, for it is only with Him that there is any hope.

Maggie, I agree with you. Is **IS ** only with God there is hope.
I also think that to pray for someone is good christian work.

But we have more tools awaliabele to us, to use, the doctors, the medication, the slow therapeutic work of the one in need for it, the support and…

My opinion is that we are called to do our “jobs” in life. We are not to be perfect, but we are to try the best we can. To see God as the hope includes both/and (not either/or).

God Bless!

G.G.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

THERE IS SOMETHING I DON’T UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS THREAD:

I have seen someone discussing a patient. I don’t want to be “not -polite”, but I want to remind about the promise made to keep silent about patients problems.

This is NOT a board were profesionals are allowed to discuss patients. Such boards are closed from public.

I hope every one can agree in that discussing SPESIFIC patients/clients are not to be done in an open forum.

To discuss generally is something else and will not hurt anybody.

(Please excuse any spellingmistakes. English is not my first language).

G.G.

 

[WhiteDove]

As long as you can’t identify the patient, it’s okay to discuss. That’s the rule. It’s a big country. As you noticed I didn’t mention the patient’s name, or the hospital.

 

[JCPhoenix]

dcmac:

St. Christina the Astonishing

Also known as
Christina Mirabilis

Memorial
24 July

Patronage
insanity, lunatics, madness, mental disorders, mental handicaps, mental health caregivers, mental health professionals, mental illness, mentally ill people, psychiatrists, therapists

Amazing! St. Christina was my Confirmation saint…there are several, but in spite of my mother’s illness I had NO IDEA that St. Christina was the patron saint of the very thing that made life so hard! (I mean, besides being alive in general. )

Of course, I wasn’t sure which one to choose so in my choice I considered all of them. :bounce:

 

[dredgtone]

You made a very interstening question : Are we letting an atheistic pychological industry redefine our outlook on the problem of sin and evil?
Atheistic psychology? Exsqueeze me? Sorry I’m a psych major and i don’t see how atheism has anything to do with science!

If you’re crazy in the head, you’re crazy in the head. Satan has to do with temptation, not mental disorders! Wow… takes care of this whole topic…

 

[Maggie]

Gratias Grace:

Maggie, I agree with you. Is **IS ** only with God there is hope.
I also think that to pray for someone is good christian work.

But we have more tools awaliabele to us, to use, the doctors, the medication, the slow therapeutic work of the one in need for it, the support and…

My opinion is that we are called to do our “jobs” in life. We are not to be perfect, but we are to try the best we can. To see God as the hope includes both/and (not either/or).

God Bless!

G.G.

You are so right! Which is why anger is such a harmful emotion… I agree that there are numerous treatments and am an advocate of properly treating mental illness as one would treat diabetes. I was upset when making that post and deserve the reprimand. I do believe that the prognosis is better for those who have hope in God than for those who don’t, for without Him I know I wouldn’t have made it this far… but certainly He is beyond the limits of my comprehension and is quite capable of using the illness to bring someone to Him so who am I to limit His scope.

 

[dcmac]

Gratias Grace,
Nowhere did White Dove violate confidentiality. White Dove is correct in informing you that the requirements are to not mention a name. Discussing essentials of a case is a totally different ball of wax. I understand your confusion though and certainly appreciate your desire to remind us of our responsibilities.

Clarkal,
“Used to be” does not qualify one for anything. I used to be a womanizer when in high school, have not been since the abortion of my child on December 21, 1991 and my reversion to Catholicism on August 15, 1993. Being a former womanizer does not give me the ability to understand women any better. Because you “used to be” doesn’t give you an automatic pass on the credibility, knowledge front.

I will respect your place in life if for no other reason than God Himself loves everyone in the place they’re in. Of course that does not equate to a love, or acceptance, of where they are or what they are doing. As any good father would love his child despite his faults…even more so with God the Father.

There are places I could direct you to inform you of why it is that people who are already sick are at a greater risk of further infection, whether it is physical or spiritual. Even if you do not believe in God anymore, the devil certainly believes in you. He will seize any and every opportunity to spread evil. He is a predator, and an effective one at that, and all good predators prey on the weakest link. No predator attacks the strongest of the flock, rather the most vulnerable and weakest. This is a basic fact of life in the animal kingdom and certainly in the spiritual world.

I don’t recall ever stating that being mentally ill makes you “prone” to possession. If I did I will recant it and apologize immediately. However, I do recall asserting that the afflicted (that could be physical, psychological or spiritual) are at a greater “risk” of more afflictions whether it is physical or spiritual. There is a difference between “prone” and “risk”. Your mischaracterization was probably accidental and so I will not make a big stink about it.

Either way I will pray for you. For when I was away from the Church in my high school years I too had issues with a God that would allow suffering…of course I was a moral relativist and a wanna be socialist thanks to the fine work of several highly impressive public school ‘teachers’. I have been there and so I will pray for you in a particular way.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh

 

[CARose]

JCPhoenix:

I will add you to my prayers, and I hope that you have sufficient faith in God to allow Him to determine if you are meant to have children. All children are a gift of God, even those who might be challenged with a mental illness. And, with your wonderful insight into that challenge, you might be especially well suited to raising such a child.

It has been said that some of the most incredible people in history suffered such illnesses as manic depression (I’ve heard it said that both Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill were).

Good luck and God Bless,

CARose

 

[clarkal]

dcmac:

Clarkal,
“Used to be” does not qualify one for anything. I used to be a womanizer when in high school, have not been since the abortion of my child on December 21, 1991 and my reversion to Catholicism on August 15, 1993. Being a former womanizer does not give me the ability to understand women any better. Because you “used to be” doesn’t give you an automatic pass on the credibility, knowledge front.
I think that this is a bad comparison. Also, I think that being a former Catholic who lived and breathed his faith qualifies me to some understanding of Catholic theology. And I do understand a great deal of it, but I doubt that you will take this poor infidel’s word for it.

dcmac:
There are places I could direct you to inform you of why it is that people who are already sick are at a greater risk of further infection, whether it is physical or spiritual.

Please direct me to these places. Spiritual only, please.

dcmac:
I don’t recall ever stating that being mentally ill makes you “prone” to possession. If I did I will recant it and apologize immediately. However, I do recall asserting that the afflicted (that could be physical, psychological or spiritual) are at a greater “risk” of more afflictions whether it is physical or spiritual. There is a difference between “prone” and “risk”. Your mischaracterization was probably accidental and so I will not make a big stink about it.

I looked over your previous posts in this thread, and I did not see you stating anything about the “risk” or “proneness” of the mentally ill for demonic possession. Hmm…

And if I did in fact mischaracterize, I apologize.

Clarkal

 

[CARose]

clarkal:

… My point was that a loving god allowing demonic possession in mentally ill patients seems rather incompatible with his nature and makes him look like a monster. I think that this view stems from superstition, not reason.

Clarkal,

I think perhaps the difficulty you are having is your lack of understanding of suffering as a way of joining Christ in his sacrifice on the Crucifix, and God’s role as a loving Father.

A Father who truly loves his child, and we are truly children in the eyes of God, the Father, may need to allow pain in the course of teaching a lesson. This is NOT to suggest that a mentally ill person deserves their pain, or that misfortunes are the result of sin.

But, when we encounter pain and misfortune, we are given the opportunity to grow through the challenges we face. We can join our suffering to the cross, seek the lesson God intends for us and grow in perfection, or we can rail against the unfairness of our predicament.

As for the role of demonic forces and their ability to impact the lives and souls of those suffering from mental illness… Well, despite what our current culture would have us believe, the Devil and his evil spirits are real. And those who suffer impaired judgement are at risk. God provides Grace to those who suffer and He makes a greater good from even the bad things that befall us. So, do not believe that because something bad has happen that all hope is lost or that God is foresaking those who are vulnerable.

But the full ways of God are beyond our knowing. We’re just babes on this one.

God Bless you for taking the time to come and re-explore your Catholic roots. I pray that you find what you came looking for.

Christ be with you,

CARose

 

[Gratias_Grace]

WhiteDove:

As long as you can’t identify the patient, it’s okay to discuss. That’s the rule. It’s a big country. As you noticed I didn’t mention the patient’s name, or the hospital.

No, you didn’t mention the name or city. But I think you brought the topic in the wrong place. The right place to discuss this topic was at your workplace, with your mentor.

I think it is very sad when people make a mix psyciatric illness with the believe that the patient is possessed.

The borderlinepatients are “clever” to put their own feelings into their helpers. You can bee in your best mood and so after meeting a borderline feel able to kill (or very, very angry).

The borderline has dumped his/heers feelings in you. Their problem is that they arn’t able to keep their own feelings (a disturbance form very early in life). They have to go to therapy for years to learn to trust others, - to keep their own feelings and be responosible for them.

People that work with the borderlines are not be alone with their feelings. Their workplace shall be able to make it possible for the profesionals to have somone to talk to.

Here is a link to a former borderlines website. It’s informative (no real demons):

borderlinepersonality.ca/

(Please excuse any spellingmistakes. English is not my first language)

G.G.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

dredgtone:
Atheistic psychology? Exsqueeze me? Sorry I’m a psych major and i don’t see how atheism has anything to do with science!

If you’re crazy in the head, you’re crazy in the head. Satan has to do with temptation, not mental disorders! Wow… takes care of this whole topic…

Well your problem seem to be that you denie faith in God!

From Re: Atheism, post 92:

dredgtone:

It’s not a turning to atheism, it’s a realization that God cannot exist based on the tantamount of paradoxes and Biblical contradiction. It’s not like I enjoy the prospect of no afterlife, but I can’t help seeing it any other way.

Dredgtone, science is not a contradiction to to believe in God. Science cannot reviel amything that is not known to God.

A lot of people feel it difficult to go to therapists because the therapist think that their believe in God is part of their illness or totaly ignore that part of their life.

As a psycologist you shall not talk about your patiants as crazy. It makes you look stupid and ingnorant. The variatioin among patients are big, form the milder form of neuroses to schizophrenia.

Give your chatholic patiens a choice:

ipsciences.edu/CPI_resources.html

catholictherapists.com/index.asp

(Please excuse any spelling mistakes. English is not my first language).

G.G.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Maggie:

You are so right! Which is why anger is such a harmful emotion… I agree that there are numerous treatments and am an advocate of properly treating mental illness as one would treat diabetes. I was upset when making that post and deserve the reprimand. I do believe that the prognosis is better for those who have hope in God than for those who don’t, for without Him I know I wouldn’t have made it this far… but certainly He is beyond the limits of my comprehension and is quite capable of using the illness to bring someone to Him so who am I to limit His scope.

It’s no contradiction. God can use illnes to help us trust in him and find a more christian way to live life.

But the other way around: Some people use God as an excuse to not to do something about their own life. They sit with their prayers as if it was a feeding -tube and want God to do everything for them.

God will work in them when they do the work to be done to overcome their mental illness.

Here is a referance to a boook written by a christian manic depressive who made to do his part of the work with the help of God. He used more than 10 years to make it:

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964915170/qid=1088499784/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0558577-9855856?v=glance&s=books

God Bless!

G.G.

 

[dredgtone]

Gratias Grace:

Well your problem seem to be that you denie faith in God!

From Re: Atheism, post 92:

Dredgtone, science is not a contradiction to to believe in God. Science cannot reviel amything that is not known to God.

A lot of people feel it difficult to go to therapists because the therapist think that their believe in God is part of their illness or totaly ignore that part of their life.

As a psycologist you shall not talk about your patiants as crazy. It makes you look stupid and ingnorant. The variatioin among patients are big, form the milder form of neuroses to schizophrenia.

Give your chatholic patiens a choice:

ipsciences.edu/CPI_resources.html

catholictherapists.com/index.asp

(Please excuse any spelling mistakes. English is not my first language).

G.G.

Yes science does not contradict with God. Which is why i didn’t like the term “atheistic psychology”. I mean cmon now, there’s nothing ungodlike about peering into the most complex aspect of our body, the mind.

True many psychologists do not belive in God in the same sense that the majority of scientists don’t believe in God. Science seems to be something people can put “faith” into and thus the need to believe in God isn’t there. There’s nothing entirely wrong with that, belief is belief.

But i disagree when you say many people may not goto therapists because the therapist thinks faith is part of the problem. I think psychology in general just has a negative stigma attatched to it. And lets be real for a second, could faith not be a problem in some instances? Could someone’s faith based reality become so warped as to cause fanaticism or an unhealthy world view? If one’s faith is inspiring a narrow-minded perspective in life, then as with anyone who has a narrow perspective in life, this should be remedied. For example, a fundamentalist coming out and saying the purple teletubby is gay propaganda. He needs to get his head chiecked, correct?

 

[Gratias_Grace]

dredgtone:

Yes science does not contradict with God. Which is why i didn’t like the term “atheistic psychology”. I mean cmon now, there’s nothing ungodlike about peering into the most complex aspect of our body, the mind.

True many psychologists do not belive in God in the same sense that the majority of scientists don’t believe in God. Science seems to be something people can put “faith” into and thus the need to believe in God isn’t there. There’s nothing entirely wrong with that, belief is belief.

But i disagree when you say many people may not goto therapists because the therapist thinks faith is part of the problem. I think psychology in general just has a negative stigma attatched to it. And lets be real for a second, could faith not be a problem in some instances? Could someone’s faith based reality become so warped as to cause fanaticism or an unhealthy world view? If one’s faith is inspiring a narrow-minded perspective in life, then as with anyone who has a narrow perspective in life, this should be remedied. For example, a fundamentalist coming out and saying the purple teletubby is gay propaganda. He needs to get his head chiecked, correct?

Psycology came later into world (as a clinical science) then the medicine. (I hope you understand what I try to say. My abillity to write english is not so good as my abillity to read it).

Psychologists used decades to be accsepted in the mental health-care field.

The discipline tryed to stay neutral in religious questions. But a lot of psychologist ment that it was the religious training that had made their patients ill. Then they concluded thar religion in itself was unhealthy .Some ment that more than others (Ellis, among others).

As you know, in the psycodynamical field, Freud, did not believe in God. (Christian psychologists say he “killed” God because that was his way to solve his odipedical conflict).

To day psychologists (and psyciatrists) are more open to the religious aspeckt with their patients. So it can be more easy to find a therapist that will accept the whole person. (The psycholigist may be a good helper even if he/she himself/herself don’t believe in God).

But I want to add that I as a catholic know people that do not want to go to a “secular psychologist” because they feel the psycologist don’t understand them as whole persons. They feel it unnatural with a split; something is for the therapist, something is for the priest.

To be continued.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Continued:

Your question: "And lets be real for a second, could faith not be a problem in some instances? Could someone’s faith based reality become so warped as to cause fanaticism or an unhealthy world view?"

Of course the way a person is thaugt religion may be a source that has contributed strongly to the patiants problems. Example;. - been beeten up because one was not “a clever child” and “deseved to end up in hell” is not a healthy upbringing. Nor is it healthy to be kept locked up at home at the age of 15-16 when friends go to a dance, because parents think dancing is sinful etc. etc.

I will say that these people are NOT unhealthy because religion is unhealthy, but because they was thaugt faith in the wrong way.

One of the reasons that the mental-health profession thaugt that religion was unhealthy was because it was the unhealthy brougth up religious that came for help. The healthy ones didn’t ask for help!

Later one has found that religious people thaugth religion in a healthy way, are very healthy (Sorry I can’t remember the referances, so you will have to search for them yourself. I willl post them if I find them).

Some, drugaddicts among others, will not become healty before they have found God. (That don’t excludes that some drugaddicts can benefit from secular psychological treatment).

About “fanaticism or an unhealthy world view” I think you will find unhealthy FUNDAMENTALISTS of both secular and religious roots. Some examples of unhealthy secular “fundamentalists” , Stalin , Pol pot, nazizm …

Best wishes!

G.G

 

[dcmac]

Clarkal,

I think it is a valid comparison, but that is my opinion and yours may well be correct in that it is not. I leave that to better minds than mine to figure out.

I am baffled over your assertion that now I never said anything about “risk” vs. “prone” in your latest post. And here is why: it was you who claimed that I had. Here is the course of conversation for you, re-read the posts since you could not find them before, for I did. Notice the words “susceptible” and “risk” not once was “prone” used, which, after all was what I previously said to you…

“In truth ill people are more susceptible than others are to more physical illness and even spiritual illness. When you are engaged in a serious battle already you are weak and less able to fight off another attack. We see this in the physical world with ailments being very opportunistic and aggressive. So it should come as no surprise to us that those who physically suffer are at greater risk of spiritual illness; that may mean anything from questioning of or the outright loss of faith, or perhaps, oppression or possession.”

And here is your comment of “prone” a couple of posts later:

“I used to be an orthodox Catholic, so I have a decent grasp of Catholic theology. However, I do not recall reading anything about mentally ill people being more prone to demonic possession than mentally healthy individuals, so I took this view to be understood as being someone’s personal opinion, which I thought was erroneous, and not based on actual Catholic teaching.”

To which I replied:

“I don’t recall ever stating that being mentally ill makes you “prone” to possession. If I did I will recant it and apologize immediately. However, I do recall asserting that the afflicted (that could be physical, psychological or spiritual) are at a greater “risk” of more afflictions whether it is physical or spiritual. There is a difference between “prone” and “risk”. Your mischaracterization was probably accidental and so I will not make a big stink about it.”

To which you just replied:

“I looked over your previous posts in this thread, and I did not see you stating anything about the “risk” or “proneness” of the mentally ill for demonic possession. Hmm…”

So, now I am hmm…

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,

Donnchadh

 

[dcmac]

Gratias Grace,

Perhaps it is the language barrier, but the way your posts read it seems you are getting on White Dove a little too harshly IMHO. White Dove did nothing illegal, or, unethical. Calling her on the mat like this implies that she did and that is unfair.

If we are to take your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion we would have to determine that real cases could not be cited and used for discussion anywhere, be that the class room, the clinic, the literary world, the TV and radio media, etc.

The “rules of engagement” are very clear on this subject for health care professionals and nowhere did White Dove violate any of them, nor was she unethical.

As a PsyD, I appreciate your great desire for patient confidentiality and applaud your effort to remind us of it. However, you really should stop hammering at White Dove for something she did not do.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh

 

[dcmac]

Clarkal,

There are a three of authors/preachers I would like you to read/see as sources I mentioned to you in an above post.

The first is a noted Catholic speaker and a great psychologist. He is Fr. Benedict Groeschel (I may have the last name spelled wrong). He is a serious scientist who has an equally serious spirituality. His book on suffering (Arise from Darkness) is the one I recommend the most to people outside of the Book of Job.

The second is the chief exorcist of Rome under the authority of the Holy Father. He is Fr. Amorth. His books reveal a great love for the health care sciences and an equaled love of spirituality. I have to say that as he takes to task the general apathy of bishops I find him rather refreshing. Of course he does so with charity, but he calls it, or them, like it, or they, are. No matter what side of the fence one sits on you gotta like people like that. In fact he asked Fr. Benedict to write the forward for him.

The third place I would direct you is none other than Fr. John Corapi, SOLT. His story is so famous that I’ve been told he was interviewed by VH1 for a series on John Belushi (Fr. John was very rich and hung out with the Hollywood elite as well as a major party man and drug abuser and was partying with Mr. Belushi the night he died). His videos are an excellent source on the connections we have been discussing. You can get them from his website or watch him on EWTN.

So, I hope these three sources are a good start and if you’d like others, please let me know.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh

 

[Annunciata]

dcmac:

Clarkal,

There are a three of authors/preachers I would like you to read/see as sources I mentioned to you in an above post.

The first is a noted Catholic speaker and a great psychologist. He is Fr. Benedict Groeschel (I may have the last name spelled wrong). He is a serious scientist who has an equally serious spirituality. His book on suffering (Arise from Darkness) is the one I recommend the most to people outside of the Book of Job.

The second is the chief exorcist of Rome under the authority of the Holy Father. He is Fr. Amorth. His books reveal a great love for the health care sciences and an equaled love of spirituality. I have to say that as he takes to task the general apathy of bishops I find him rather refreshing. Of course he does so with charity, but he calls it, or them, like it, or they, are. No matter what side of the fence one sits on you gotta like people like that. In fact he asked Fr. Benedict to write the forward for him.

The third place I would direct you is none other than Fr. John Corapi, SOLT. His story is so famous that I’ve been told he was interviewed by VH1 for a series on John Belushi (Fr. John was very rich and hung out with the Hollywood elite as well as a major party man and drug abuser and was partying with Mr. Belushi the night he died). His videos are an excellent source on the connections we have been discussing. You can get them from his website or watch him on EWTN.

So, I hope these three sources are a good start and if you’d like others, please let me know.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh

DrMac,
Thanks so much for all this great info you are sharing w/ us…what a great priest you are going to be! I worked for the Church for many years and have had the pleasure of having many priests and dare I say Bishops that I call Father and Friend soooo…I can sense a good one when I see one in this case “well written one”…may the Lord protect you from pride ( as my Scots-Irish Nana would often say) PAX, Annunciata