MERGED: Does Hell exist today?

[benidict]

Thanks for the link. However, of what I read the author does not directly answer, or provide scripture proof of the belief, but rather his own belief. The beliefs stated contradict many scriptures that state the opposite.

Is the interceding in heaven done by dead spirits, or God’s angles?

When are we judged by God? Not until His second coming. If you go to heaven or hell when you die, God has already decided on your judgement.

If our souls live after death then we are not immortal. I believ the scriptures say that we are mortal. When do we receive our immortal bodies?

written with love

as far as the judgment my friend, there is an immediate judgment upon death. those that have died in the friendship of God go to heaven, or to purgatory, which is an antechamber to heaven. depending on what the situation of their relationship with him permits. those that have died at enmity with God, begin to suffer their eternal torment at the point of death. however the body must be judged as well. therefore the ressurection must take place to give an account what we have done in the body. weather good or evil, and recieve the rewards or consequenses of such. in the interim state, not much is said of what kind of body we shall have. it is another plane of existence, so the rules governing it may be different. however, moses appeared on the mount of transfiguration, and they knew it to be him, even though he was in spirit form, also samuel, when he appeared to saul, was known to him. at the ressurection however we recieve our permanent heavenly bodies, or our body that we used for our own selfish pursuits to be either rewarded or punished accordingly. remember also what the apostle paul said. he was torn, between going to be with Christ in full, and staying with the bretheren in his present body. Peace

 

[BTTG]

Hi, BTTG…

I reviewed the article…it does contain the biblical references, Rev 5: 8.

Try this link, this may be to your better liking:
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007chap.asp

This also related: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902clas.asp

Is the interceding in heaven done by dead spirits, or God’s angles?

Those in heaven are alive, not dead…both saints and angels intercede for us when asked.

]If our souls live after death then we are not immortal. I am not sure what you are asking, we are not immortal means we are mortal…we die but our souls survive, I believe…

I believ the scriptures say that we are mortal. When do we receive our immortal bodies?

As for your other questions, I suggest you start a thread in the Apologetics section. I would not do you justice if I tried to answer your questions as there are more knowledgeable people than me on the subject.

Wow, you are a true person. You are not full of pride. God bless you. Many that have responded to my questions, respond with their own thoughts and do not provide scripture to support their answer. You on the other hand, admit that you lack knowledge in the area of mortal/immortality and are not afraid to admit as such. Thank you for your honesty.

What I was stating is that our bodies are mortal, we are subject to death. We must die. However, if our soul continues to live after we die, then a part of our body continues to live, therefore, that would mean we have an immortality.
We receive our (1Co 15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Co 15:54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

At the second coming of Christ the saved will receive their immortal bodies.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

as far as the judgment my friend, there is an immediate judgment upon death. those that have died in the friendship of God go to heaven, or to purgatory, which is an antechamber to heaven. depending on what the situation of their relationship with him permits. those that have died at enmity with God, begin to suffer their eternal torment at the point of death. however the body must be judged as well. therefore the ressurection must take place to give an account what we have done in the body. weather good or evil, and recieve the rewards or consequenses of such. in the interim state, not much is said of what kind of body we shall have. it is another plane of existence, so the rules governing it may be different. however, moses appeared on the mount of transfiguration, and they knew it to be him, even though he was in spirit form, also samuel, when he appeared to saul, was known to him. at the ressurection however we recieve our permanent heavenly bodies, or our body that we used for our own selfish pursuits to be either rewarded or punished accordingly. remember also what the apostle paul said. he was torn, between going to be with Christ in full, and staying with the bretheren in his present body. Peace

hey, good to hear from you,

Where in the bible does it talk about there is an immediate judgment upon death. those that have died in the friendship of God go to heaven, or to purgatory, which is an antechamber to heaven.

Also, what Paul was talking about was not being"with" Christ , but being Christ like.

 

[Doxiemom]

Yes. hell still is there. It will seem like paradise compared to the Lake of Fire also called the second death.

Just the image of that gives me the shudders.

 

[BTTG]

Hi, BTTG,

Here is a link under this website: catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
There are other articles about this topic on this site, just go to the Search page.

A short explanation:

Saints are those who we know are in heaven with God. In asking for the intercession of saints, the Catholics ask for their help with our prayers to God, to intercede for us in times of need, since they are in heaven and are closer to God than us. In a sense, they pray to God too together with us here on earth.

Once you read the link, you will get more info.

The challenge with the saints in heaven “with” God, and in heaven closer to God, and they pray to God too,… is that (Psa 115:17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

This verse reads that the dead have no intercession with God and that they are “silent”.

Furthermore, the dead do not rise, they sleep the sleep of death…(Job 14:10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (Job 14:11) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: (Job 14:12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Yes. hell still is there. It will seem like paradise compared to the Lake of Fire also called the second death.

Just the image of that gives me the shudders.

Don’t let it give you the shudders, that is what Satan wants you to believe. Focus your eyes, heart on Jesus and all will be well.

 

[BTTG]

What is the “soul” ?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What is the “soul” ?

Gen2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It says here in Gen.2 that the soul is a combination of the breath of God (spirit) and a body. A soul does not exist or ceases to exist if both are not present. A soul can die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Does hell exist today?

No.
Least I don’t think so.

 

[pablope]

The challenge with the saints in heaven “with” God, and in heaven closer to God, and they pray to God too,… is that (Psa 115:17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

This verse reads that the dead have no intercession with God and that they are “silent”.

Furthermore, the dead do not rise, they sleep the sleep of death…(Job 14:10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (Job 14:11) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: (Job 14:12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

written with love

Well, I gave your the biblical references to the saints…do you think the Scriptures contradict themselves? I do not think so. I think you may be taking things out of context. My suggestion to you is to look wholly at the verse you are quoting, and look at it with the totality of the verses before and after it to get the essence of the message. Also, I do not know your denomination, so I urge you to compare your Bible with the KJV, the NAB and NIV to see if they agree or not.

 

[benidict]

hey, good to hear from you,

Where in the bible does it talk about there is an immediate judgment upon death. those that have died in the friendship of God go to heaven, or to purgatory, which is an antechamber to heaven.

Also, what Paul was talking about was not being"with" Christ , but being Christ like.

the rich man and lazarus is a good start. remember what the rich man said to abraham, " please send lazarus so that my brothers do not end up in this horrible place!" also we have the souls of those who have been martryed crying up to God in revelation. read carefully, paul was not talking about being Christ like. he many times talked about putting off this earthly tabernacle, and that there is a place for us. not at the ressurection alone, but immediatley. read the letters of St. Paul, and everything he has to say about dying. he never talks about soul sleep. he even writes that when Jesus returns, he will bring those who have fallen asleep in him. how can he bring back those if there is no soul that survives death? the body sleeps and returns to the dust yes. but at the ressurection we must be reunited with our bodies. we can also look at moses again, who died. he was enjoying the presence of the Lord, and still is. no evidence points to a special ressurection. God at times stated, "I AM the God of abraham issac and jacob. not i was the God of abraham issac and jacob. why? because they are in his presence. it is also written, he has put immortality in our hearts. why? because though our bodies are mortal, our souls are not. more thoughts to follow, i just lost what i was going to say next. i hate it when that happens…lol! peace

 

[benidict]

hi Craig! now i remember what i was gonna write. im getting old! can you find any scholar, bibe teacher or Catholic theologian, or protestant for that matter, that taught the doctrine of soul sleep, before the 1800s? there, my brain didnt totally fail me. Peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

hi Craig! now i remember what i was gonna write. im getting old! can you find any scholar, bibe teacher or Catholic theologian, or protestant for that matter, that taught the doctrine of soul sleep, before the 1800s? there, my brain didnt totally fail me. Peace

How about Jesus
Jn. 11
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus equates Lazarus’ death to sleep. Not a state of conciousness in heaven.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha understands the state of the dead as being this state of unconciousness awaiting the resurrection.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

After Jesus prays to the Father He calls Lazarus forth from the grave, not down from heaven, because Lazarus is in the grave not in heaven. Also when Lazarus is awakened he says nothing of the beautiful place he was in and inquire why he had been made to return to this dismal sinful world and the reason for that is because he was not in heaven. He was asleep in the grave.

Paul talks about soul sleep and resurrection in1Thess. 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God will bring those that have fallen asleep back to heaven with Jesus when they are awakened, at the last tump at the resurrection, at the end of the world.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Those who have died in Christ remain in the grave to await the resurrection to go with Jesus to the place He has prepared for them

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus doesn’t say that He will bring them back from heaven to be reunited with their bodies. He says He will return and recieve them unto Himself. How could He do that if they were already with Him?

 

[BTTG]

Gen2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It says here in Gen.2 that the soul is a combination of the breath of God (spirit) and a body. A soul does not exist or ceases to exist if both are not present. A soul can die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I am glad someone, took the word of God, and not the word of man to support their answer. Yes, you are correct. Now if we read Eccl. 12:7 we will find out what happens when we die.

Notice that God’s word reads that we will “become” a “living” soul. God does not “give” us a soul, we “become” a living soul.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Well, I gave your the biblical references to the saints…do you think the Scriptures contradict themselves? I do not think so. I think you may be taking things out of context. My suggestion to you is to look wholly at the verse you are quoting, and look at it with the totality of the verses before and after it to get the essence of the message. Also, I do not know your denomination, so I urge you to compare your Bible with the KJV, the NAB and NIV to see if they agree or not.

The verses in Job I referred to are from the KVJ. I do use the KVJ bible.

let me know your thoughts on how you read the verses I quoted. With do respect you mention I take things out of context. Please explain how I have done that.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

hi Craig! now i remember what i was gonna write. im getting old! can you find any scholar, bibe teacher or Catholic theologian, or protestant for that matter, that taught the doctrine of soul sleep, before the 1800s? there, my brain didnt totally fail me. Peace

Hey, were all getting older, taking us one step closer to God.

I don’t believe there was before the 1800’s, but remember ( no pun intended ), the Pharisees were scholars too, and they did not understand the word of God, they didn’t even belief that Jesus was the Messiah.

I believe that we do not have to be scholars, or theologians, to understand scripture. When we study the bible our knowledge will increase. Jesus chose the simple man to be His disciples, God chose many ordinary men as prophets.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

How about Jesus
Jn. 11
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus equates Lazarus’ death to sleep. Not a state of conciousness in heaven.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha understands the state of the dead as being this state of unconciousness awaiting the resurrection.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

After Jesus prays to the Father He calls Lazarus forth from the grave, not down from heaven, because Lazarus is in the grave not in heaven. Also when Lazarus is awakened he says nothing of the beautiful place he was in and inquire why he had been made to return to this dismal sinful world and the reason for that is because he was not in heaven. He was asleep in the grave.

Paul talks about soul sleep and resurrection in1Thess. 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God will bring those that have fallen asleep back to heaven with Jesus when they are awakened, at the last tump at the resurrection, at the end of the world.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Those who have died in Christ remain in the grave to await the resurrection to go with Jesus to the place He has prepared for them

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus doesn’t say that He will bring them back from heaven to be reunited with their bodies. He says He will return and recieve them unto Himself. How could He do that if they were already with Him?

I agree with you.

To anyone:

Why didn’t Jesus tell any of His disciples upon their death that He would see them in heaven soon?

 

[campeador]

I agree with you.

To anyone:

Why didn’t Jesus tell any of His disciples upon their death that He would see them in heaven soon?

How do you know he didn’t?

 

[BTTG]

**You stated ** =benidict;7241108]the rich man and lazarus is a good start. remember what the rich man said to abraham, " please send lazarus so that my brothers do not end up in this horrible place!"

My reply

here is my understanding:

This has to be a parable, it would be very difficult to take it literally. The parable was addressed to the Pharisees and a large audience.
The parable Jesus is talking of is that the Jews thought that riches pleased God. The rich man thinks that Salvation is based on Abraham descent, rather then the character person themselves. The Pharisees thought that the soul did live on. Jesus here is trying to explain that bliss and misery after death are determined by our conduct previous to death. Some will say that Jesus did not state this is a parable. However, Jesus does not state also in Luke 15:8, 11; 16:1

the “richman” are the Jews/Pharisees ( purple- royal dignity and fine linen- luxury - religious leader)

Lazarus, represents the “Gentiles”. Interesting to note that the meaning of “Lazarus” , is “God has helped”.

the “dogs” are what the Jews called the Gentiles - (Mat 15:26) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Abraham’s bosom - was used as the Jews could relate to Abraham. And bosom means a “particular closeness”. (Joh 13:23) Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. (Isa 40:11) He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. (Joh 1:18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Abraham’s bosom cannot be heaven for Jesus tells us…(Joh 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (Joh 14:2) In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (Joh 14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus will come again ( at His second coming) to receive us unto Him. (Mat 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Rev 22:12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Our reward is at the second coming. If we go straight to heaven after we die, I would call that a reward.

The beggar laid at the gate, as if the richman had the opportunity to help the beggar, but did not do so. The Jewish nation had all the riches from God, but was so selfish and self centered, they were guilty of much.

The beggar needed to be fed, but the richman did not supply. The richman never helped the beggar, the beggar only received the crumbs that fell. (Mar 7:28) And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.

carried by angles- when are we carried by angles…(Mat 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This happens at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

“send Lazarus” - the rich man evidently assumes that Lazurus should be placed at his every call, which in a sense would be a continuation of their positions on earth???

dip his finger- if there is a disembodied soul, bodies are in the grave, how can one have fingers, or a tongue? This would also mean that the literal body that was carried by the angles would be a literal body in heaven.

The rich man was not punished for being rich, but for misusing his riches. He was selfish, rather than putting it to use for the service of God and fellow man. Nor was the beggar in heaven because he was poor. Once again if this was a literal meaning, this would imply that all rich men go to hell and all poor go to heaven.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

How do you know he didn’t?

Yes good question back. We don’t know for sure. It’s just the verses I read ( see my last post for the verses of the second coming), I think Jesus would have said, I will see you in heaven, rather then when I return to receive you.

written with love