MERGED: Does Hell exist today?

[benidict]

Hi Ben

I don’t know where you got the idea that that God’s punishment is not eternal. It certainly was not from me. The bible teaches that we will die and that this death will be for eternity.

Again I didn’t say that hell is not eternal. Hell in the bible is often used to mean the grave or death. After Jesus’ return and the righteous are raised up out of the grave outo eternal life and after the millenium in heaven, the wicked are raised to recieve their sntence and that sentence is to be thrown into the lake of fire where they will recieve the appropriate punishment for their crimes and then they will be burned up, they will be no more, forever. This is what the bible teaches. I have given you many vs. that confirm this.

I don’t understand how you think that death is getting away with their crimes.

Psalm 37
10For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How can you read these any other way than that the wicked perish, are burned up, consumned, become stubble, and ashes. They DIE FOREVER Ben, but then

Isaiah65
17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

interesting. then who did Jesus go preach to when he died? it is written in peter that he went to the realm of the dead. to preach the good news to those who had died in the friendship of God who were in abrahams bosom, and to announce his victory, to those that had died without the friendship of God. or do you deny that peter stated that Jesus preached to those in “prison” during the time he was in the grave. not to mention moses appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus. he had died. how then, if soul sleep were true, could he have been there if there is nothing that survives the death of the body. want an old testament example? ok, can do. who appeared to king saul, and stated “why do you disturb my rest?” that would be samuel. if there was nothing that survived death. how could samuel have appeared? also in the law, when it is talking about the prohibitions against mediums and communicating with spirits, there is a prohibition of associating with people who have a “ghost” it is seperate from those that are into contacting evil spirits which would be of the fallen angel variety. so through out the old and new testament we see that something carries on after death. either in in abrahams bosom, which is paradise. or in tartarus. the temporary abode of the wicked until the time of the end where they will be cast into the lake of fire.where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. not to mention that the verse in revelation you quote is for the ressurected who have been saved. not the lost, who chose hell. if you only take part of the council of the bible on this subject, then i could see how you could come to your views. but we must take the whole council of God to get a clearer picture. and that my friend paints a very different picture of the in between state and the final judgement, than you would lead people to believe. sorry richard. again Adventist views have been weighed in the scales, measured by the Word of God, and have been found wanting. i really dont know what more there is to be said. but this is a conversation that is truly interesting. hopefully some more people will chime in. peace

 

[BTTG]

plenty of them. read the parables of the wedding feast. or the one of the 10 foolish virgins. how about the those the seperation of the sheep and the goats. of course we have the story of the rich man and lazarus. in many of these parables they are cast into the outer darkness. where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. lets not forget the book of jude. and of course revelation. the new testament is full of references to a place where the wicked dead will suffer for eternity. and if we want to get into the old testament, then remember it is written, that he has placed eternity in our hearts. we are not temporal beings. we will either be ressurected with a glorirfied body, or a corrupt one. one that is designed to please God, and do his will. or a corrupt one. designed to pay the penalty for our own sins, since we rejected his remedy and grace. in short he came to save us from the wrath of God. Peace

So I don’t assume anything , would you please provide the verses of " the wedding feast", “10 foolish virgins”, “separation of sheep and goats”.

As for the rich man and Lazarus, this is not about death, but about life. Furthermore, this parable cannot be taken literally. If it were literal ask these questions; can all those who died literally fit into Abraham’s Bosom-how big is his bosom? Can a dip of a finger cool the tongue in a burning fire? Are we to communicate with the dead? - Deut. 18:10-11

Think of the following: the “rich man” are the Jews (Pharisees) , “Lazarus” are the Gentiles, “Bosom” is particular “closeness” (Jn 13:23, Isa 40:11, Jn 1:18. This parable is about the Jews thinking that riches pleased God.

 

[BTTG]

interesting. then who did Jesus go preach to when he died? it is written in peter that he went to the realm of the dead. to preach the good news to those who had died in the friendship of God who were in abrahams bosom, and to announce his victory, to those that had died without the friendship of God. or do you deny that peter stated that Jesus preached to those in “prison” during the time he was in the grave.

This is not a literal prison, it is a spiritual prison of the mind ( Isa 42:7, Isa 61:1, Luke 4:18). If you believe it is literal then you must be saying that Jesus went to hell to preach after his crucifixion.??? When we read the context of this verse with the verses pre and pro- ceding we find the understanding of what Peter is saying. Vs 18 says that Jesus is made alive “ by the Spirit”. The spirits in vs. 19 are living , ‘me” and “you”( see Gal 6:18, 2 Tim. 4:22) . vs 20 goes on to say who these “spirits” are. The spirits are all those that were disobedient to God, living just before the flood in the days of Noah ( Gen 6:3). The spirits and the souls in vs 19 and 20 were living on earth just before the flood. Therefore, Jesus by the spirit was preaching to those people living on the earth just before the flood. These people were in a spiritual prison for they did not accept God. The eight souls that were saved were baptized through the flood.
Question, only 8 people survived the flood. Why would God take thousands and thousands to a holding place. Why not just give them a second chance on earth to come to know God. (Ecc 9:5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

want an old testament example? ok, can do. who appeared to king saul, and stated “why do you disturb my rest?” that would be samuel. if there was nothing that survived death. how could samuel have appeared?

Could you provide the verse… “why do you disturb my rest?” thank you

also in the law, when it is talking about the prohibitions against mediums and communicating with spirits, there is a prohibition of associating with people who have a “ghost” it is seperate from those that are into contacting evil spirits which would be of the fallen angel variety. so through out the old and new testament we see that something carries on after death. either in in abrahams bosom, which is paradise. or in tartarus. the temporary abode of the wicked until the time of the end where they will be cast into the lake of fire.where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

ghost means to die, perish, “give up the ghost”, why do so many people say that a ghost is a living soul?

not to mention that the verse in revelation you quote is for the ressurected who have been saved. not the lost, who chose hell

The lost/wicked are in hell/the grave in which they will be resurrected after the 1000 years and suffer a second death ( no body wants to take part in the second death)

 

[benidict]

So I don’t assume anything , would you please provide the verses of " the wedding feast", “10 foolish virgins”, “separation of sheep and goats”.

As for the rich man and Lazarus, this is not about death, but about life. Furthermore, this parable cannot be taken literally. If it were literal ask these questions; can all those who died literally fit into Abraham’s Bosom-how big is his bosom? Can a dip of a finger cool the tongue in a burning fire? Are we to communicate with the dead? - Deut. 18:10-11

Think of the following: the “rich man” are the Jews (Pharisees) , “Lazarus” are the Gentiles, “Bosom” is particular “closeness” (Jn 13:23, Isa 40:11, Jn 1:18. This parable is about the Jews thinking that riches pleased God.

abrahams “bosom” was the name for paradise in Jewish thought at the time. it was in their mind a literal place. you know very well where the parables are of which i speak. i have had others ask me to provide proof text before too. and when i do so, they are never answered. were you aware that it was not until much later that the bible was put into chapter and verse? and the Jewish translations were put into chapter and verse even later than when the Church did so. and you still have not answered my questions on moses. how was he on the mount of transfiguration if nothing survives the death of the body? its a simple question. as far as samuel, you can find this in the story, where saul goes to the witch in endor. are you trying to see if i know where to find these storys. i certainly can. im a former baptist, and know my bible quite well, thank you. its also not a bad idea to study Jewish thought at this time about the subject of life after death. josephus would be a good start. the passages are in the appendix dealing with a debate he had with a pagan reguarding the state of the dead. he certainly believed it was conscious. as far as the rich man and lazarus, this is the only time Jesus ever used a name in his parables. also he started it out, with " there once was a rich man…" not his usual, " the kingdom of heaven is like…" and yes. it is stated that Jesus died and descended into hell after his crucifiction. interesting to note too, that at his death, there was a mighty earthquake, and many who had died, were seen in the city. i think you may want to take what the apostles stated quite literaly about his ministry in those three days he was dead more seriously. the apostles took him literally. his message to those who had died in the friendship of God was one of the debt being paid, and they could finally enter into the fullness of Gods fellowship. the message to the Damned was one of victory that he had conquered and now held the keys to death and hell. Peace

 

[mangy_dog]

The simple answer to an obviously simple question:

Yes, hell does exist today.

Hell has existed since the moment in which God (in His mercy) ratified the desires of the fallen angels to be as far away as possible from Him. Even so, they are still tormented because God is everywhere and the setting of hell is only a slight reprieve to this fact.

So, hell has not always existed but it will exist forever.

 

[BTTG]

You wrote

abrahams “bosom” was the name for paradise in Jewish thought at the time. it was in their mind a literal place. you know very well where the parables are of which i speak. i have had others ask me to provide proof text before too. and when i do so, they are never answered.

My response

 

[Samson01]

If so, why? I’m sure that there is a hell, a state of being without God’s love. A state of intense spiritual pain where the weight of sins folds one on to themselves in a crushing vertigo of fire. What are your thoughts?

 

[newwidow]

I totally agree with you. Hope you get some responses. It would be interesting to hear other peoples answers even if they don’t agree. Newwidow

 

[pinctor]

If so, why? I’m sure that there is a hell, a state of being without God’s love. A state of intense spiritual pain where the weight of sins folds one on to themselves in a crushing vertigo of fire. What are your thoughts?

Yes and no! I think the intense spiritual pain is God’s love refused by the finally impenitent.

 

[scottm]

Is the hell of your question necessarily eternal?
… if that’s too much of a tangent we needn’t go there.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If so, why? I’m sure that there is a hell, a state of being without God’s love. A state of intense spiritual pain where the weight of sins folds one on to themselves in a crushing vertigo of fire. What are your thoughts?

Since God created something as Beautiful as the world. I would imagine he did a slam up job with Heaven and hell also.

I’m not sure how one commits sin then later concludes to chose evil and the Graphics of hell. I have a hard time with that thinking.

Good thing God gave us the church with solid instructions to follow the path to God.

I thank God daily for the strength to get up and follow his path.

 

[Nicea325]

If so, why? I’m sure that there is a hell, a state of being without God’s love. A state of intense spiritual pain where the weight of sins folds one on to themselves in a crushing vertigo of fire. What are your thoughts?

Absolutely! If there is a Heaven,then there is a Hell. If Hell did not exist,then I truly believe Jesus being God would have cleared up any confusion or stated there is no Hell.

 

[Samson01]

Is the hell of your question necessarily eternal?
… if that’s too much of a tangent we needn’t go there.

I think there is no (0) comfort in hell. So it would say eternally getting worse or some comfort could be found. I once heard that the name of Jesus is forgoting in hell as His name brings hope, but that may be out there, don’t know.

 

[Barbkw]

No, I don’t doubt there is a hell, of the father of lies’ making.

Ever watch “Addicted” or “Hoarders” or “Cops” on television?

Living, personal hells of the person’s own making.

 

[JonNC]

If so, why? I’m sure that there is a hell, a state of being without God’s love. A state of intense spiritual pain where the weight of sins folds one on to themselves in a crushing vertigo of fire. What are your thoughts?

I find your description to be similar to what I believe Hell is - “a state of being without God’s love.” It could also be a state of being within the range God’s love, and not wanting it.

Jon

 

[Samson01]

No, I don’t doubt there is a hell, of the father of lies’ making.

Ever watch “Addicted” or “Hoarders” or “Cops” on television?

Living, personal hells of the person’s own making.

What of the hell St. Faustina described in her diary, an eternal death.
divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

 

[GEddie]

Absolutely! If there is a Heaven,then there is a Hell. If Hell did not exist,then I truly believe Jesus being God would have cleared up any confusion or stated there is no Hell.

Actually, if there were no Hell, our LORD would have deceived us. HE spoke more than once about Hell, and not just in passing. In fact, HE speaks of it more than HE does about Heaven.

So if you don’t believe in Hell, you really don’t believe in HIM, either!

And if there were no Hell, why did HE have to hang by HIS limbs and bleed to death? What would we need to be “saved” from?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Nicea325]

Actually, if there were no Hell, our LORD would have deceived us. HE spoke more than once about Hell, and not just in passing. In fact, HE speaks of it more than HE does about Heaven.

So if you don’t believe in Hell, you really don’t believe in HIM, either!

And if there were no Hell, why did HE have to hang by HIS limbs and bleed to death? What would we need to be “saved” from?

ICXC NIKA

Exactly! Amen!

 

[Publisher]

I do not believe there is a hell of eternal torment. I am more of a Universalist Friend. I believe eventually all creation will be reconciled to the Father…worrying about whether we go to heaven or hell is of no importance to me…this life is what is important…

While this is a statement of the Church of the Brethren…Friends would embrace it as well…

"When it’s all said and done, salvation is a mystery that belongs to God. It is God’s business whether we are saved or not. It is our business to respond, to obey, God, to live as followers. WE trust that God will be just and loving when we’re judged, but when we are asked if we are actually saved, our response can only be, “That’s God’s decision.” With any other answer, we would be assuming too much for God. There is a story of a woman who walked around with a bucket of water and a flaming torch. When asked what she was doing, she replied that she wanted to **put out the flames of hell and burn up the rewards of heaven so that people would worship and serve God not to save themselves, but for the sheer joy of God alone. **Brethren (Friends) want to be drawn into the pilgrimage toward God by the sheer beauty of God, the deep joy in the Spirit, and the clarity of the call of Christ. Promises of salvation are almost irrelevant. "

 

[larkin31]

I doubt there is a literal hell. I just can’t seem to see a reason for it except as an* idea* that is the metaphorical repository of our fears about death.