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BTTG
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Thank you Scaun.
- Status
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John7
Guest
Actually there is no article before ‘judgment’ (Gk krisis) in the Greek (the Greek the King Jame’s translators used). Check out these translations:
KJV, NKJV, and NRSV only have ‘the’ before ‘judgement’
And forasmuch as it is the portion of men once to die, and after this judgment;
DARBY
And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;
ASV
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
ESV
And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment—
HCSB
Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,
ISV
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
KJV
And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment,
NET
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
NASB95
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
NIV
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
NKJV
And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment,
NRSV
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
RSV
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
TNIV
and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this—judgment,
YLT
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StevieD
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Richard_Kastner
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You seem to have forgotten the Douay Rheims bible which I quoted [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment: but even without the article there is nothing to indicate that this is talking about anything but the final judgement at the end of the world. What would be the purpose of God having two judgements?
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John7
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oh yea DR.
purpose…well, I don’t know - wait - doesn’t God have to have a process by which he decides who goes to paradise. Everybody dies except those at the very end, don’t they get ‘sorted’ before the resurrection? Like who goes to paradise or not needs some sort of judgment/court process, doesn’t it? Those who sleep (die) in Jesus go to paradise, those that don’t die in Christ don’t go to paradise. Otherwise you might meet Hitler in paradise.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
If you die in Christ and meet a favorable personal judgment just after you die you go to paradise like the thief on the cross and from there await the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment…right?
[don’t know if this is correct Catholic doctrine]
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BTTG
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**My reply **- The thief did not go to paradise the day he died. The reason is… the statement in the verse is " today, I will see you in paradise". Jesus did not ascend to his Fathers Kingdom the day He died. For we read in scripture that Jesus, after his resurrection,could not be touched as he had not seen His father. Read the verse again with the comma after the word “today”. Where is the thief then if he did not go to heaven when he died. He is a sleep.oh yea DR.
**You stated **- purpose…well, I don’t know - wait - doesn’t God have to have a process by which he decides who goes to paradise. Everybody dies except those at the very end, don’t they get ‘sorted’ before the resurrection? Like who goes to paradise or not needs some sort of judgment/court process, doesn’t it? Those who sleep (die) in Jesus go to paradise, those that don’t die in Christ don’t go to paradise. Otherwise you might meet Hitler in paradise.
**My reply ** - hey what about if nobody goes to heaven when they die and they sleep until the second coming of our Lord and then the judgement takes place.
A thought on your quotes on the verses below
Your quoted verses - 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
My response - many understand this verse as “God will bring with Him”, at the second coming, those that are dead in Christ ( which are in heaven). Remember we should not base a doctrine on one verse of the bible.
This thinking cannot be true for the following reasons:
God is not appearing at the second coming, Jesus is. We are to be taken by Jesus to the father. Secondly, Jesus at his second coming comes with his angles…(Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: AND (Luk 9:26) For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
**Your quote verse **- 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
My response - This verse indicates that at the second coming, the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those that are alive in Christ shall ascend. This is the order of resurrection and then we will all be caught up with Christ. The following verses in 1 Thes 5:16-17 explain the readings of vs. 15 in a little more detail. Dead in Christ will rise first. We who are alive shall be caught up together.
When Christ returns at His second coming, he will receive the dead and living in Christ and we will go to the Father’s house… (Joh 14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
**You stated **- If you die in Christ and meet a favorable personal judgment just after you die you go to paradise like the thief on the cross and from there await the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment…right?
(Job 14:10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
(Job 14:11) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
(Job 14:12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
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BTTG
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John7
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the Douay-Rheims (not listed) NT-1582, OT-1609
and the King James 1611
after those two come
Young’s 1862
Darby’s 1890
American Standard Version 1900
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John7
Guest
so the thief is asleep right now
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Richard_Kastner
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Sure but why two judjements?oh yea DR.
purpose…well, I don’t know - wait - doesn’t God have to have a process by which he decides who goes to paradise. Everybody dies except those at the very end, don’t they get ‘sorted’ before the resurrection? Like who goes to paradise or not needs some sort of judgment/court process, doesn’t it? Those who sleep (die) in Jesus go to paradise, those that don’t die in Christ don’t go to paradise. Otherwise you might meet Hitler in paradise.
This is not talking about the judgement but about the time when Jesus RETURNS to the earth to get His children. This is brought out in Jn. 14 also. Jn.14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Cor.15If you die in Christ and meet a favorable personal judgment just after you die you go to paradise like the thief on the cross and from there await the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment…right?
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
This seems to say that the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, not broght down from heaven and this occures at the last trump or when Jesus returns. Nothing about a personal judgement.
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BTTG
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thank you, I never knew
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BTTG
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I believe the thief is sleep ( dead in Christ).
As a side note. I believed for over 40 years, I believed the church only, instead of not just reading the bible , but studying the bible, that when we die we sleep. It was very hard for me at first to believe we do not go to heaven ,( or the wicked go to hell) , because" I " wanted to believe what made me feel good about my deceased family members. It was about what " I " wanted to believe and not what God tells us in scripture.
I see the “sleep”, after we die, as when we sleep at night. When we awake from our nightly sleep we don’t know how long we have slept for, it could have been for 1 minute or 8 hours. I believe when we die that our “sleep” will be the same. When we awake out of our “sleep” we will see the second coming of our Lord.
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benidict
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our “bodies” sleep until the ressurection, yes. i will agree with you on this. but seeing how there is no credible evidence that moses was resurected, and did appear at the transfiguration, and seeing how samuel, did appear to saul. and seeing how it is written in hebrews that we have a great cloud of witnesses, and seeing how it is written in revelation, that the souls of the martyrs cried out for justice to God, and seeing how the people gathered for prayer for peter, thought it was his “angel” at the door, and not peter in the flesh, after he had been released from prison, and seeing how stephen, when he was about to die, looked up, and saw Christ, and stated, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge, and gave up the ghost, i would have to say you are wrong about what the bible has to teach about this issue. not to mention, only the Church that Christ has provided, can rightly interperet the bible. it is not for individual interpretation, and never was meant to be. not for israel, and not for us either. it is a matter of who your authority is. your authority is derived from yourself. that my friend is no authority at all. we need to have a proper authority over us. that proper authority is the Church Christ has established. and the successors of the apostles whom he appointed. peace
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benidict
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oh yes Craig. just as a p.s. i believed in the bible only for over 37 years. until the Lord revealed to me his Church, with no effort on their part. it was a work of the Holy Spirit that brought me in. not the work of man. it was just short of miraculous how it happened. the only human agent God used, was a Messianic Jew, who happened to be Lutheran. he also used dreams, visions, and my dog, among other things. and everything i was shown was confirmed in the Catholic Church. this after having fell away, because protesantism had NO answers for the some of the things i had been through and witnessed. they still dont. and incidentally, neither does the bible. but the Priest who God has placed to shepard us, do have the answers. they do not speak on their own, they are empowered by the Holy Spirit. to listen to them, is to listen to God. to not listen, is to not listen to God. look what he told the apostles, after he breathed on them. im not trying to change your mind. just some things to think about. Peace to you and yours. oh yes, and the Messianic Jewish brother of mine, converted to Catholicism also. 
oh yes, and the Messianic Jewish brother of mine, converted to Catholicism also.
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StevieD
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If you believe that Scripture is accurate ‘I and the Father are One’ and in the Triune God, that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One then the God-Man Jesus did see the thief in Paradise on the day he died, though He, Jesus had not ascended.
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BTTG
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Hi Richard,our “bodies” sleep until the ressurection, yes. i will agree with you on this. but seeing how there is no credible evidence that moses was resurected, and did appear at the transfiguration, and seeing how samuel, did appear to saul. and seeing how it is written in hebrews that we have a great cloud of witnesses, and seeing how it is written in revelation, that the souls of the martyrs cried out for justice to God, and seeing how the people gathered for prayer for peter, thought it was his “angel” at the door, and not peter in the flesh, after he had been released from prison, and seeing how stephen, when he was about to die, looked up, and saw Christ, and stated, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge, and gave up the ghost, i would have to say you are wrong about what the bible has to teach about this issue. not to mention, only the Church that Christ has provided, can rightly interperet the bible. it is not for individual interpretation, and never was meant to be. not for israel, and not for us either. it is a matter of who your authority is. your authority is derived from yourself. that my friend is no authority at all. we need to have a proper authority over us. that proper authority is the Church Christ has established. and the successors of the apostles whom he appointed. peace
I will respond to your examples in the bible of the “appearing” of such “spirits” in the next few days.
your honesty is a reflection of the true character of God.
what is your definition of “sleep”. If after we die; we are not resurrected , and the judgement, and our reward is not until the second coming of our Lord, how are there people in heaven? … except,I believe Moses, Elijah, and the special resurrection that happened after Jesus was crucified.
written with love
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benidict
Guest
we are ressurected. our bodies must be be reunited with our spirits for good or for ill. God came to redeem our bodies as well as our souls. he also came to reclaim creation. it will take a ressurection to accomplish this. in the intermediate state, we are enjoying the presence of God, awaiting the ressurection. again. moses body was dead when he appeared before Christ on the mount of transfiguration. also did not the apostle paul state, that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord? did he not state that he was torn betwixt the two, weather to depart and be with Christ, or stay for the benefit of the Church? did he not state, to live is Christ and to die is gain? i believe its pretty clear, that the apostle paul believed in an interim state that was concious. a lot of scripture must be ignored, or explained away, to come to the conclusion otherwise. many are chrystal clear. the passages in hebrews revelation. in the o.t. david talking about his son that was taken in judgement for his adultry, maccabees and making sacrifices for the dead. these are more to consider. Peace to you and yours.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
This is all certainly true.
The bible does not teach this.
Moses was on the mount of transfiguation along with Elijah, but they we both there in there risen bodies. Elijah was taken up in a firey chariot. Moses died but was taken up later.
Jude
9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
**2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. **
The building of God that Paul talks about here is our spiritual body.
**2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. **
If this state of disembodied bliss that you speak of were possible, why would Paul so eanestly desire to be encumbered by His spiritual body? Well the answer is clear. It is not possible.
**5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. **
From my commentary
” (see on Rom. 10:17). See on Heb. 11:1, 6, 13, 27, 39.
8. Absent from the body. That is, from life in the present world.
Present with the Lord. From a superficial reading of vs. 6–8 some have concluded that at death the soul of the Christian goes immediately to be “present with the Lord,” and that Paul, ardently desiring to be with the Lord (v. 2), welcomed death. But in vs. 3, 4 Paul describes death as a state of being “naked,” or “unclothed.” He hopes, if at all possible, to avoid this intermediate state, and ardently desires to be “clothed” with his “house … from heaven.” In other words, he hopes to be translated without seeing death (see on vs. 2–4). Elsewhere (see on 1 Cor. 15:51–54; 1 Thess. 4:15–17; 2 Tim. 4:6–8; etc.) Paul makes it certain that men are not “clothed” with immortality individually at death, but simultaneously at the resurrection of the just.
Or, to restate it in this way: In 2 Cor. 5:2–4 Paul has already declared that “life,” obviously meaning immortal life, comes when one is “clothed upon” with his “house … from heaven” at the resurrection (see on v. 4), not in the “naked,” or “unclothed,” state of death. In v. 8 he expresses the desire to be “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord,” but it is obvious that being “absent from the body” does not mean being disembodied (“naked,” or “unclothed”), for in vs. 2–4 he has stated clearly that he does not desire this intermediate state and would avoid it if at all possible. To have “life” (v. 4) and to be “present with the Lord” (v. 8) thus requires possession of the “house … from heaven” (v. 2). Careful scrutiny of Paul’s statements thus clearly and decisively rules out any possibility of a state between death and the resurrection in which, as disembodied (“naked,” or “unclothed”) spirits, men go to be “present with the Lord.” Compare Rom. 8:22, 23; see on Phil. 1:21–23.
The Bible declares death to be but a sleep from which believers will be awakened at the first resurrection (John 11:11–14, 25, 26; 1 Cor. 15:20, 51–54; 1 Thess. 4:14–17; 5:10). It is not until then that both the living and the resurrected saints will be with the Lord (see on 1 Thess. 4:16–18). Neither group precedes the other (cf. Heb. 11:39, 40)…
**9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. **
It is here that we will be resurrected to recieve our reward and if we be in Christ a new body.
Explained, yes, but not away.
Why don’t you cite them and let’s look at them.many are chrystal clear. the passages in hebrews revelation. in the o.t. david talking about his son that was taken in judgement for his adultry, maccabees and making sacrifices for the dead. these are more to consider. Peace to you and yours.
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BTTG
Guest
This is the verse I was commenting on…(Joh 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
I was saying that Jesus could not have gone to paradise for Jesus says Himself that " I am not yet ascended to my father". To me this would indicate that Jesus had not yet ascended.
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benidict
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moses was not in a ressurected body. jude does not say this. nor has anybody in Church history claimed this. this is simply attempting to force scripture to fit your claims. what about the 24 elders in revelation who are in the presence of God? what about the great cloud of witnesses found in hebrews? there is so much to dispute the soul sleep scheme, its amazing anyone would ever believe it. it was not even taught in christianity before Adventism was founded. show me some theological proof, from any time before E.G. White, that this was taught in any denomination. better yet. find me one Catholic theologian from any era, that taught this doctrine? ill be happy to examine it. the bible totally contradicts your founders theory. this is why i have come to the conclusion that the Adventist do not believe the the bible, but simply their founders interpretation of it. again it is a matter of authority. i have also played this citing game with you before richard. you never really do answer. i would be wasting time i dont have. i have given paraphrased passages to you. you know where these passages are. i see no need to “prove” my biblical knowlege to you, by quoting chapter and verse. incidentally, chapter and verse didnt come along for many years after the bible was finally completed. and the Jews didnt do it until later than that. peaceThis is all certainly true.
The bible does not teach this.
Moses was on the mount of transfiguation along with Elijah, but they we both there in there risen bodies. Elijah was taken up in a firey chariot. Moses died but was taken up later.
Jude
9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
**2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. **
The building of God that Paul talks about here is our spiritual body.
**2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. **
If this state of disembodied bliss that you speak of were possible, why would Paul so eanestly desire to be encumbered by His spiritual body? Well the answer is clear. It is not possible.
**5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. **
From my commentary
” (see on Rom. 10:17). See on Heb. 11:1, 6, 13, 27, 39.
8. Absent from the body. That is, from life in the present world.
Present with the Lord. From a superficial reading of vs. 6–8 some have concluded that at death the soul of the Christian goes immediately to be “present with the Lord,” and that Paul, ardently desiring to be with the Lord (v. 2), welcomed death. But in vs. 3, 4 Paul describes death as a state of being “naked,” or “unclothed.” He hopes, if at all possible, to avoid this intermediate state, and ardently desires to be “clothed” with his “house … from heaven.” In other words, he hopes to be translated without seeing death (see on vs. 2–4). Elsewhere (see on 1 Cor. 15:51–54; 1 Thess. 4:15–17; 2 Tim. 4:6–8; etc.) Paul makes it certain that men are not “clothed” with immortality individually at death, but simultaneously at the resurrection of the just.
Or, to restate it in this way: In 2 Cor. 5:2–4 Paul has already declared that “life,” obviously meaning immortal life, comes when one is “clothed upon” with his “house … from heaven” at the resurrection (see on v. 4), not in the “naked,” or “unclothed,” state of death. In v. 8 he expresses the desire to be “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord,” but it is obvious that being “absent from the body” does not mean being disembodied (“naked,” or “unclothed”), for in vs. 2–4 he has stated clearly that he does not desire this intermediate state and would avoid it if at all possible. To have “life” (v. 4) and to be “present with the Lord” (v. 8) thus requires possession of the “house … from heaven” (v. 2). Careful scrutiny of Paul’s statements thus clearly and decisively rules out any possibility of a state between death and the resurrection in which, as disembodied (“naked,” or “unclothed”) spirits, men go to be “present with the Lord.” Compare Rom. 8:22, 23; see on Phil. 1:21–23.
The Bible declares death to be but a sleep from which believers will be awakened at the first resurrection (John 11:11–14, 25, 26; 1 Cor. 15:20, 51–54; 1 Thess. 4:14–17; 5:10). It is not until then that both the living and the resurrected saints will be with the Lord (see on 1 Thess. 4:16–18). Neither group precedes the other (cf. Heb. 11:39, 40)…
**9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. **
It is here that we will be resurrected to recieve our reward and if we be in Christ a new body.
Explained, yes, but not away.
Why don’t you cite them and let’s look at them.
- Status