MERGED: For transubstatiation to happen, should bread not look like bread?/Real Presence

[Earnest_Bunbury]

A word of caution on what we read in the Summa of St. Thomas.

I’ve often seen posts here on CAF which try to justify the addition of other ingredients to altar breads by citing St. Thomas. Those invariably take the quote from the Summa out of context.

The quote is one of his “reply to the objection” which is the standard format of the Summa. Understanding the objection is essential in understanding the reply to the objection. The objection was that in St Thomas’ day, “pure wheat bread” was near impossible to achieve because there would always be some small amount of other grain mixed in with the wheat. Examples: some barley from the next field might find its way into the wheat field, or some rye might re-grow from last year’s crop, or some other grain might be left on the millstone, or a number of other possibilities that would result in some small amount of other grain (or even other seeds like grass) getting into the wheat flour.

St. Thomas was not at all trying to say that it’s acceptable to knowingly mix flour from other grains into the dough for altar bread; in spite of the fact that many people claim that’s what he was doing.

A small proportion of another grain does not make the altar bread invalid matter. But there is no question that doing so intentionally is always wrong, and likewise, whenever another substance is added to the recipe, it always makes the validity of the bread questionable.

Not only is it read out of context and without the necessary unity of its integral whole, it is read through the lens of today’s deficient philosophy and worldly philosophical notions.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Everything has a “chemical formula”.

No it does not. Only chemical compounds have chemical formulae.

All matter is made of chemical elements.

That is correct. Elements have chemical symbols; not formulae.

Bread is a mixture and mixtures do not have chemical formulae.

Something like an orange is made of tissues, these are made of cells, they are made of organelles, they are made of molecules of elements and compounds. It is only these latter, compounds, that have formulae.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Bread does not have a chemical formula, neither do oranges. We distinguish these from each other by sight, taste, and smell.

Yes, Bread has a chemical formula.
I do not say it it a pure substance with unique chemical properties, but it varies. If you tal about water, which is a pure substance it is H2O. But with mixed substances, it varies, for instance, bread may have more or less salt. But inside vairabilities there is a combination of molecules which characterizes bread.

chemistry could put in front of you something that by sight, taste and smells looks like bread but it is not bread.

It is the chemical formula that MARKS, so to say, what the substance is.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Yes, Bread has a chemical formula.

I think first of all we need to remember that this thread is about what bread looks like and if that is important with regards to its validity as matter for the Eucharist.

Secondly, the Magisterium does not say that this is the formula or recipe for bread that has to be followed.

To answer your point: no, bread does not have a chemical formula. Bread is what chemistry calls a mixture. From a chemist’s POV there is no fixed ratio of specific substances. The recipe may lay down certain quantities but they’re not exactly fixed. For example, a person baking bread may decide the dough is too dry and add more water. The quantities are not exactly fixed. Of course, the baking process in the oven is a chemical process.

However, bread is not a chemical compound. It is a mixture. Only compounds have formulae. Bread will contain compounds such as water (dihydrogen monoxide) that do have chemical formulae. This is because water always has the fixed ratio of hydrogen to oxygen of 2:1 (H2O). If this is changed it is no longer water, e.g. H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide.

The constituents from which bread is made are not required in fixed ratios. So bread is a mixture not a compound and has no chemical formula.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I think first of all we need to remember that this thread is about what bread looks like and if that is important with regards to its validity as matter for the Eucharist.

Secondly, the Magisterium does not say that this is the formula or recipe for bread that has to be followed.

To answer your point: no, bread does not have a chemical formula. Bread is what chemistry calls a mixture. From a chemist’s POV there is no fixed ratio of specific substances. The recipe may lay down certain quantities but they’re not exactly fixed. For example, a person baking bread may decide the dough is too dry and add more water. The quantities are not exactly fixed. Of course, the baking process in the oven is a chemical process.

However, bread is not a chemical compound. It is a mixture. Only compounds have formulae. Bread will contain compounds such as water (dihydrogen monoxide) that do have chemical formulae. This is because water always has the fixed ratio of hydrogen to oxygen of 2:1 (H2O). If this is changed it is no longer water, e.g. H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide.

The constituents from which bread is made are not required in fixed ratios. So bread is a mixture not a compound and has no chemical formula.

Yes, Bread has a chemical formula, but not a fixed one. I misquoted my post, so you are answering to something I did not say.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is correct. Elements have chemical symbols; not formulae.

Bread is a mixture and mixtures do not have chemical formulae.

Something like an orange is made of tissues, these are made of cells, they are made of organelles, they are made of molecules of elements and compounds. It is only these latter, compounds, that have formulae.

Every matter has a chemical formula. And as you last paragraph states, if you break down matter enough, you’ll come up with the individual formula that will make up what is there. What we have here is a play on semantics.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I think first of all we need to remember that this thread is about what bread looks like and if that is important with regards to its validity as matter for the Eucharist.

Secondly, the Magisterium does not say that this is the formula or recipe for bread that has to be followed.

To answer your point: no, bread does not have a chemical formula. Bread is what chemistry calls a mixture. From a chemist’s POV there is no fixed ratio of specific substances. The recipe may lay down certain quantities but they’re not exactly fixed. For example, a person baking bread may decide the dough is too dry and add more water. The quantities are not exactly fixed. Of course, the baking process in the oven is a chemical process.

However, bread is not a chemical compound. It is a mixture. Only compounds have formulae. Bread will contain compounds such as water (dihydrogen monoxide) that do have chemical formulae. This is because water always has the fixed ratio of hydrogen to oxygen of 2:1 (H2O). If this is changed it is no longer water, e.g. H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide.

The constituents from which bread is made are not required in fixed ratios. So bread is a mixture not a compound and has no chemical formula.

The previous post to this post disappeared out of the blue! Funny!
Yes, Bread had got a chemical formula. Yoi insisted on fixed ratios onl, you did not read well my previous post.
For instance, there is the problem of the presence of gluten for gluten-alergic people which had to be decided by the Holy See: it was not a question of taste as you said.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Yes, Bread has a chemical formula, but not a fixed one. I misquoted my post, so you are answering to something I did not say.

Bread does not have a chemical formula. If it had one it would be fixed. The chemical formulae of substances do not change. As you are so insistent that bread has a chemical formula can you please provide it to me.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Every matter has a chemical formula. And as you last paragraph states, if you break down matter enough, you’ll come up with the individual formula that will make up what is there. What we have here is a play on semantics.

It is not a play on semantics; it is scientific fact. Every matter does not have a chemical formula. Elements do not have chemical formulae. They have chemical symbols. You may argue that is semantics. It is not. It is about being precise and using the correct terminology for what one is referring to.

Likewise mixtures do not have chemical formulae. Formulae are ways of representing the exact proprtions of elements in a compund. Mixtures do not have exact proportions of the substances from which they are made.

If you breakdown something to the chemical compounds of which a substance is composed you no longer have that substance. For example, if you chemically broke down on orange to those substances to which you could assign a chemical formula (nucleic acids, amino acids, carhohydrates, lipids, vitamins) you would no longer have an orange, just a whole mess of chemicals.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

What a ridiculous argument.

For the purpose of the Latin rite of the Catholic Church, altar bread must be made of certain ingredients, a certain “formula” if you will: wheat flour and water. Thats it.

It seems to me that the OP has a rather narrow conception of what constitutes bread. Bread comes in thousands of flavors, shapes, colors, with all sorts of additives. But at the most basic level, bread is flour and water. Anything made of just wheat flour and water is obviously bread, and that is the only type of bread the Latin Church may use.

Perhaps seeing how Latin rite altar bread is made will make things more clear:

youtube.com/watch?v=6wvsmwbc9cQ

 

[Digitonomy]

It seems to me that the OP has a rather narrow conception of what constitutes bread. Bread comes in thousands of flavors, shapes, colors, with all sorts of additives. But at the most basic level, bread is flour and water. Anything made of just wheat flour and water is obviously bread

By and large that rings true to me, but in a recent thread we had at least one member denying that crackers could possibly be bread, so your view is not universal.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=601593

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

I would think some crackers could be considered bread. In America at least, cracker is a pretty broad category. I would say Ritz crackers, for example, might be considered bread, whereas something like Triscuit crackers probably wouldn’t.

If I’m not mistaken, what makes crackers crackers is that they are layered and have holes poked in them, which helps them rise.

I don’t think the Church has theologically defined what a cracker is, so as long as we stick to flour and water we should be fine!

Herems an idea: since Catholic altar bread is basically Jewish Matzoh, we should look into their rules. I believe some Jewish groups dispute whether matzoh can be hard (like a cracker) or must be soft.

 

[FrDavid96]

I would think some crackers could be considered bread. In America at least, cracker is a pretty broad category. I would say Ritz crackers, for example, might be considered bread, whereas something like Triscuit crackers probably wouldn’t.

If I’m not mistaken, what makes crackers crackers is that they are layered and have holes poked in them, which helps them rise.

I don’t think the Church has theologically defined what a cracker is, so as long as we stick to flour and water we should be fine!

Herems an idea: since Catholic altar bread is basically Jewish Matzoh, we should look into their rules. I believe some Jewish groups dispute whether matzoh can be hard (like a cracker) or must be soft.

No. No. No. A thousand times no.

A cracker is not bread. Crackers are not valid matter for the Eucharist.

A Ritz cracker is most certainly not valid matter for the Eucharist

If you do not know what constitutes valid matter for the Eucharist, please refrain from offering guesses.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

No. No. No. A thousand times no.

A cracker is not bread. Crackers are not valid matter for the Eucharist.

A Ritz cracker is most certainly not valid matter for the Eucharist

If you do not know what constitutes valid matter for the Eucharist, please refrain from offering guesses.

Wow. Evel Knievel couldn’t have made that leap. I never said Ritz crackers were valid matter for the Eucharist. If you took a few minutes of time to read my previous posts you would know that I already quite clearly stated that only altar bread made from flour and water was valid in the Latin rite. I was merely discussing whether crackers were necessarily seperate from bread.

That fact that you went out of your way to insult my knowledge and intelligence, without a proper understanding of what I had written, is supremely insulting. You owe me an apology.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

No. No. No. A thousand times no.

A cracker is not bread. Crackers are not valid matter for the Eucharist.

A Ritz cracker is most certainly not valid matter for the Eucharist

If you do not know what constitutes valid matter for the Eucharist, please refrain from offering guesses.

Wow. Evel Knievel couldn’t have made that leap. I never said Ritz crackers were valid matter for the Eucharist. If you took a few minutes of time to read my previous posts you would know that I already quite clearly stated that only altar bread made from flour and water was valid in the Latin rite. I was merely discussing whether crackers were necessarily seperate from bread.

That fact that you went out of your way to insult my knowledge and intelligence, without a proper understanding of what I had written, is supremely insulting. You owe me an apology.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Bread does not have a chemical formula. If it had one it would be fixed. The chemical formulae of substances do not change. As you are so insistent that bread has a chemical formula can you please provide it to me.

Substances have a fixed chemical formula. Mixed substances do not have a fixed chemical formula, ir varies for instance the quantity of salt.

 

[FrDavid96]

Wow. Evel Knievel couldn’t have made that leap. I never said Ritz crackers were valid matter for the Eucharist. If you took a few minutes of time to read my previous posts you would know that I already quite clearly stated that only altar bread made from flour and water was valid in the Latin rite. I was merely discussing whether crackers were necessarily seperate from bread.

That fact that you went out of your way to insult my knowledge and intelligence, without a proper understanding of what I had written, is supremely insulting. You owe me an apology.

Yes. It was late and I was tired. I had just read the referenced thread where there were some strange notions of what could be valid matter thrown out there. Came back to this thread and read “Ritz crackers” and “bread” in the same sentence and I did indeed jump to a conclusion.

I do apologize.

 

[Digitonomy]

A cracker is not bread. Crackers are not valid matter for the Eucharist.

Your second statement is dependent on the first. But it’s not clear by what gastronomic authority you are making the first claim with such certainty, or if it’s simply your own hunch.

I’ll grant that crackers don’t seem like “regular” bread, but then neither do hosts. However, if forced to define crackers as “bread” or “not-bread,” I would have to define them as bread. I’m clearly not alone.
Merriam Webster:

a dry thin crispy baked bread product that may be leavened or unleavened
Source

In fact, that definition exactly describes hosts.

 

[FrDavid96]

Your second statement is dependent on the first. But it’s not clear by what gastronomic authority you are making the first claim with such certainty, or if it’s simply your own hunch.

I’ll grant that crackers don’t seem like “regular” bread, but then neither do hosts. However, if forced to define crackers as “bread” or “not-bread,” I would have to define them as bread. I’m clearly not alone.In fact, that definition exactly describes hosts.

My “authority” is the simple fact that bread is bread and a cracker is a cracker.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Substances have a fixed chemical formula.

Not all substances have a chemical formula. Only compounds have one.

Mixed substances do not have a fixed chemical formula …

Mixtures do not have a chemical formula.