MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation

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By the way, Fr Z says “I think the USCCB goes with the prevailing opinion. I disagree… but I will defer.” I e, he points out that the USCCB SEEMS to go with prevailing opinion. That’s because the USCCB say that the feast of the Immaculate Conception finishes in the afternoon of that day: “The obligation is fulfilled by attending a vigil Mass on Friday evening, December 7, or Mass during the day on Saturday morning.
In the Table of Liturgical Days, a solemnity of the Virgin Mary ranks lower than a Sunday of Advent; therefore, the Immaculate Conception will end on the afternoon of Saturday, December 8.”
usccb.org/about/divine-worship/newsletter/upload/newsletter-2012-07.pdf (page 28)

Dr Peters is right that the statement about the obligation is strictly speaking correct, but leads to confusion. What he politely fails to point out, not wanting to get offside with his employer, is that it is very misleading because it is followed by the statement that the Immaculate Conception will end on the afternoon of Saturday, December 8 (sic!!!) In other words, the USCCB are basing the restrictive statement of times when Mass fulfills the obligation on Liturgical law. Peters has, in other places not directly associated with his employer, pointed out that the argument from Liturgical law does not stand up. So much for clarity from the USCCB.

Still waiting on a defence of the Irish logic of Browne. (By the way, I have Irish ancestory too, but my Vicar General canonist is latino.
 
Ed_Peters said:
MarkT, that was a little ipse-dixit-y of me to simply assert it, and my guilty conscience got to me, so I posted evidence for my position in my second blog post. Perhaps you did not see it. I did point out, wryly I thought, that your position would require us to hold that some Masses are “Super Masses” based on what hour they are celebrated, but, well, we’re going in circles here.

That said, there’s no “doubt of law” in regard to whether two Masses are required for two obligations under the current law. I’ve found no published canonical opinions supporting that view. Contrary views among others does not amount to “doubt of law” among canonists. K?

Best, edp.
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maddogdm said:
I read Dr Peter’s reference to Raymond Browne in Letter & Spirit and I do not find it convincing (I find his logic a little Irish to be honest). This debate would get interesting if someone tried to explain what is convincing about it. An elaboration from a canonist would help, otherwise I will stay with the advice the Vicar General of the diocese where I consulted (an excellent canonist), who thinks the Saturday vigil is enough to satisfy the obligation this weekend. An elaboration from Dr Ed might be helpful. Any way, many canonists disagree with Browne on things like when the obligation can be fulfilled. Dr Peters disagrees with all the bishops around the world who ordain married deacons without a vow of continence, (and with the opinion of the President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts as well I might add). I find Peters even more “Ïrish” at times.
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Emphasis mine…
 
it is a Holy Day of Obligation…so that means attend two Masses…i.e., attending one on Saturday evening wouldn’t fulfill the obligation, but basically any other combo of anticipated Masses and Masses during the day would probably work
 
Another canonist has mentioned to me that something called the “Exegetical Commentary” (on the present code of canon law) cites Communicationes 15, (pages 251ff) that the canon was “intentionally general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties’”.

I guess that rules out arriving at my first Saturday vigil mass after the readings and homily, and leaving early to arrive at the neighbouring parish mass just before the offertory for my second vigil mass. That would fulfill the two obligations with two masses, but it might detract from the joy of the feasts (c.1246). Thank God most (non- anglosaxon??) canonists aren’t into casuistry and anxieties relating to mass obligations. I fear Browne and Peters, living in countries more heavily affected by Protestant literalism than the Latinos, need to have a good look at the Exegetical commentary as well as the Communicationes comment.

I will probably not return till after the solemnities, so to all I wish all the joy of the feasts.
 
jmjconder said:
GodHeals;10096565:
Hi,

Feast of Immaculate Conception (Dec. 8th)

Saturday Mass after 4:00 PM is the anticipated Mass for the Sunday Obligation.
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Any Mass after 4:00 PM on Friday December 7th with meet the Holy Day obligation.

Please check out in your area if there is a late morning Mass. Many larger cities offer them - esp. when the Holy Day falls on a Saturday.

**It is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday’s and all Holy Day’s of Obligation. If there are circumstances beyond your control you may be exempt. However I would always check the circumstances out with your confessor. **

So it seems Friday Night Dec. 7th at 7pm would meet the requirement. It is a Vigil Mass for IC. Please confirm.
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I don’t know who ‘maddogdm’ is, and I confess some irritation at ethnic quips being substituted for arguments, but for the benefit of those reading along, I may say, I am quite familiar with the Exegetical Commentary in English and Spanish and have published favorable reviews on it. The passage in question about avoiding rigorism deals not with our topic but with the time for celebration Masses of anticipation and **expressly **supports what is my position that such time begins at noon of the preceding day. As it is not relevant to this matter, I did not bring it up.
 
So, I know that the Immaculate Conception is a Holy Day of Obligation, and I have a question regarding that. This situation doesn’t apply to me, but I am wondering:

We have Mass tomorrow evening (vigil) and Saturday morning. However, there is the normal Sunday vigil Mass also at 5pm. Would going to the Saturday 5pm Mass still count towards the Holy Day of Obligation, despite the fact that the Liturgy would not be for the Immaculate Conception?

If someone knows any church documents (if they exist) about this, then could you please either direct me to them or cite from them to answer my question. If none exist, then I’ll just see what everyone thinks. It seems to me that if you were in “dire circumstances” then it would be acceptable to go to the Saturday 5pm, as it is still Saturday and it is still the Immaculate Conception, therefore you still fulfill your obligation.

I guess another way of asking this question is, is the Holy Day of Obligation requirement met by going to a Mass on the day of that does not have the Holy Day’s Liturgy?

Thanks in advance for answers.
 
I’ve been looking into this all day. There doesn’t seem to be a firm consensus, but from what I’ve read, the liturgical obligation seems to be held as different from the canonical obligation, so as long as you go to Mass on Saturday, you should be good. I’m still unclear as to whether or not a single Sunday Vigil Mass would satisfy both.
 
I’m totally new to being Catholic,but because I’ve been checking around I’ve found that no, you can’t have the one count. I could be wrong though

Mlz
 
maddogdm said:
By the way, Fr Z says “I think the USCCB goes with the prevailing opinion. I disagree… but I will defer.” I e, he points out that the USCCB SEEMS to go with prevailing opinion. That’s because the USCCB say that the feast of the Immaculate Conception finishes in the afternoon of that day: “The obligation is fulfilled by attending a vigil Mass on Friday evening, December 7, or Mass during the day on Saturday morning.
In the Table of Liturgical Days, a solemnity of the Virgin Mary ranks lower than a Sunday of Advent; therefore, the Immaculate Conception will end on the afternoon of Saturday, December 8.”
usccb.org/about/divine-worship/newsletter/upload/newsletter-2012-07.pdf (page 28)

Dr Peters is right that the statement about the obligation is strictly speaking correct, but leads to confusion. What he politely fails to point out, not wanting to get offside with his employer, is that it is very misleading because it is followed by the statement that the Immaculate Conception will end on the afternoon of Saturday, December 8 (sic!!!) In other words, the USCCB are basing the restrictive statement of times when Mass fulfills the obligation on Liturgical law. Peters has, in other places not directly associated with his employer, pointed out that the argument from Liturgical law does not stand up. So much for clarity from the USCCB.

Still waiting on a defence of the Irish logic of Browne. (By the way, I have Irish ancestory too, but my Vicar General canonist is latino.
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That newsletter states: “The Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary in 2012 is celebrated on Saturday, December 8.” This shows that the topic is the celebration. We know that the day itself is defined as midnight to midnight in the general liturgical norms. The celebration (observance) is not always aligned with the actual 24 hours of the holy day, and the holy day remains fixed midnight to midnight. Note what was stated in the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar from Congregation for Divine Worshop: TITLE I: LITURGICAL DAYS
I. The Liturgical Day in General
3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office. The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5932
 
bobballen_18 said:
So, I know that the Immaculate Conception is a Holy Day of Obligation, and I have a question regarding that. This situation doesn’t apply to me, but I am wondering:

We have Mass tomorrow evening (vigil) and Saturday morning. However, there is the normal Sunday vigil Mass also at 5pm. Would going to the Saturday 5pm Mass still count towards the Holy Day of Obligation, despite the fact that the Liturgy would not be for the Immaculate Conception?

If someone knows any church documents (if they exist) about this, then could you please either direct me to them or cite from them to answer my question. If none exist, then I’ll just see what everyone thinks. It seems to me that if you were in “dire circumstances” then it would be acceptable to go to the Saturday 5pm, as it is still Saturday and it is still the Immaculate Conception, therefore you still fulfill your obligation.

I guess another way of asking this question is, is the Holy Day of Obligation requirement met by going to a Mass on the day of that does not have the Holy Day’s Liturgy?

Thanks in advance for answers.
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The obligation is met on the holy day itself (midnight to midnight) or on the prior evening at a Mass an any Catholic Church, Latin Catholic or eastern Catholic.

See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=722453&page=18
 
The nature of the obligation depends upon which Diocese you are in. In the Diocese of New York and the Diocese of Brooklyn, one must attend mass on both days.
Almost all Churches in both Dioceses have a Vigil Mass on both December 7th and 8th.
The Vigil Mass on theevening of the 7th counts for the observation of The Feast of The Immaculate Conception, and the Vigil Mass on the 8th counts for the Sunday obligation.
If one wants, one can attend a morning Mass on the 8th to comply with the FoIC obligation and then the evening vigil Mass for the Sunday Obligation, or attend the morning Mass on both days.
One cannot get a “two-fer” by attending the Vigil Mass on December 8th. One has to attend 2 Masses.
 
Ed_Peters said:
I confess some irritation at ethnic quips being substituted for arguments,
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I don’t get irritated at your wry quips about "Super Masses- Able to slay two obligations with a single Mass!” etc but I would welcome something better by way of argument. My comment about Protestant literalism stands though, whether it be in the drafting and interpretation of our own Constitution or of canon law.
Ed_Peters said:
The passage in question about avoiding rigorism deals not with our topic but with the time for celebration Masses of anticipation
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I am surprised you are falling into rigorism using the topic in Exegetical Comm to restrict the reference in Communicationes to avoiding casuist situations and anxieties to the time question, when it obviously applies to our situation.
Ed_Peters said:
I am quite familiar with the Exegetical Commentary in English and Spanish and have published favorable reviews on it.
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Perhaps so, but you don’t seem familiar with the citation in Communicationes 15, (pages 251ff), that the canon was “intentionally general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.” I find that intention reduces my irritation when I think of anxieties and situations such as attending two Saturday vigil masses to fulfill two obligations which is obviously not the intention of the canon. The mind of the legislator is also explicit in subsequent decisions where one obligatory Mass satisfies the obligation for two holydays when they fall on consecutive days.

I agree with Fr Z regarding simplifying obligations for the rank and file where possible and defer to canon law authorities who wish to minimize casuistry and anxieties.
 
I have Comm XV: 251-252 open before me. What passage do you think supports your position that a single Mass satisfies two attendance obligations, please?
 
Read back over the posts.

If you have* GB & I Comm*. at 702 I would be interested in what you think is so convincing.
 
The evening Mass on December 8 will fulfill the obligation for December 8, since is it on the holy day itself (midnight to midnight).
 
Ed_Peters said:
I have Comm XV: 251-252 open before me. What passage do you think supports your position that a single Mass satisfies two attendance obligations, please?
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There is ONE obligation, observe holydays of obligation.
(CCEO Canon 881 1. The Christian faithful are bound by **the obligation **to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises. 2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill THIS obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
CCC 2042 The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”) requires the faithful to **sanctify the day **commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration (SINGULAR, *NOT *PLURAL), in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.82
 
Vico said:
The evening Mass on December 8 will fulfill the obligation for December 8, since is it on the holy day itself (midnight to midnight).
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But one still will have to go to Mass on the next day, Sunday. One cannot meet both obligations with one Mass.
 
maddogdm,

The canon has “diebus dominicis et festis”. The obligation applies of Sundays and holydays. Another translation of et is also. A day is defined as midnight to midnight in the canons. An extension for fulfillment is allowed on the previous day.
 
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