MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation

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In the (really orthodox) Church’s defense:

they are not advertizing this Mass as counting toward the obligation, which is why I asked the question.
 
Existence of an obligation and fulfillment of an obligation are different concepts. ** A Mass obligation exists for each specified day.** That is why the statement was made in the commentary before that “two obligations means two satisfactions”.
That’s your opinion, and that of two great canonists we know of. Most others read the canon as ** An obligation exists to attend mass on the specified days.** and they don’t bother with the casuistry. We decide not to add words like EACH into the law. Even if we insert an ALL, our interpretation is still the clearest. An obligation exists to attend on ALL the specified days. But there is no need to insert anything, that just causes anxiety and casuistry.

The problem with your interpretation is it leads to casuistry, like attending just enough of two masses on back to back on Saturday evening, or even just attending two masses for the same feast and hearing the same jokes by the same celebrant. It detracts from the proper joy of the day(s) (c 1246).

Why don’t we put our energy into something like getting people to join us in celebrating ALL the other feasts listed in c 1246 that the US bishops have decided is too much of a burden for people in countries dominated by Protestant thinking.

Happy feast(s).
 
What about a Mass on Saturday evening and then a Mass on Sunday?
 
That’s your opinion, and that of two great canonists we know of. Most others read the canon as ** An obligation exists to attend mass on the specified days.** and they don’t bother with the casuistry. We decide not to add words like EACH into the law. Even if we insert an ALL, our interpretation is still the clearest. An obligation exists to attend on ALL the specified days. But there is no need to insert anything, that just causes anxiety and casuistry.

The problem with your interpretation is it leads to casuistry, like attending just enough of two masses on back to back on Saturday evening, or even just attending two masses for the same feast and hearing the same jokes by the same celebrant. It detracts from the proper joy of the day(s) (c 1246).

Why don’t we put our energy into something like getting people to join us in celebrating ALL the other feasts listed in c 1246 that the US bishops have decided is too much of a burden for people in countries dominated by Protestant thinking.

Happy feast(s).
I am not adding any words.
 
Okay, I am late to the party, but did we decide FOR SURE that the Saturday vigil Mass DOES NOT fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation?

:confused:
 
Okay, I am late to the party, but did we decide FOR SURE that the Saturday vigil Mass DOES NOT fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation?

:confused:
LOL, we decided for sure that Saturday evening Mass does fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation.

The only thing they’re arguing about now is whether such a Mass would fulfill both obligations at once, or just one of the individual’s choice (IC or Sunday).

(As things stand now in that debate, we have on one side a professional canon lawyer named Dr. Ed Peters, Vico, and (frankly) most U.S. bishops. On the other side: Father Z (though he humbly defers), and a poster here by the name “maddogdm.”)
 
LOL, we decided for sure that Saturday evening Mass does fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation.

The only thing they’re arguing about now is whether such a Mass would fulfill both obligations at once, or just one of the individual’s choice (IC or Sunday).

(As things stand now in that debate, we have on one side a professional canon lawyer named Dr. Ed Peters, Vico, and (frankly) most U.S. bishops. On the other side: Father Z (though he humbly defers), and a poster here by the name “maddogdm.”)
Oh, that’s so…confusing!

:confused:

But if it only fulfills the one obligation, then that cancels out my question!! What I wanted to know is if I can legally go to the Sat. Vigil Mass and have it “count” for both the IC and Sunday.

So does Fr. Z think it doesn’t count toward both? I tend to agree; after all, you’re trying to kill two obligations with one stone, so to speak, so giving short shrift to one, namely, Mary.

I think I will just be conservative and go to the morning Mass tomorrow and then Vigil as usual. Can I at least receive communion at both?
 
But if it only fulfills the one obligation, then that cancels out my question!! What I wanted to know is if I can legally go to the Sat. Vigil Mass and have it “count” for both the IC and Sunday.

So does Fr. Z think it doesn’t count toward both? I tend to agree; after all, you’re trying to kill two obligations with one stone, so to speak, so giving short shrift to one, namely, Mary.
Oddly enough, he personally thinks it does simultaneously count toward both. But he stated that he defers to Dr. Peters, who disagrees, and to the bishops, who generally hold otherwise.
I think I will just be conservative and go to the morning Mass tomorrow and then Vigil as usual.
Yeah, that’s probably best. I’m going tomorrow morning and Sunday morning.
Can I at least receive communion at both?
You can indeed receive Holy Communion at both. Vico, I’m sure, will have the citation here for you soon, but until he does, I’ll explain:

Canon law says that one can receive Holy Communion for a second time in one day, if one does so in the context of full participation in a Mass.

Since your second Holy Communion tomorrow will be during a Saturday evening anticipatory Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent, in which you’ll be fully participating, you’re therefore perfectly entitled to receive Holy Communion again. 🙂
 
I had said I wasn’t going to post anymore to this thread, but I feel like I need to say something.

FWIW, I’m still not convinced. Every single priest with whom I’ve spoken (now at seven, each from different American seminaries) say that Mass Saturday evening does not work to satisfy the obligation. Now, we could all be wrong. And, none of the priests with whom i’ve spoken are Canon Law experts. i freely admit that I am not an expert in the field. But, basically, it sounds to me like we’re telling the faithful, “Yes, IC is important, but not so important that you actually need to celebrate the feast itself.” The readings may not matter in terms of meeting the obligation, but they very much matter in terms of one’s spirituality and praying with the Church’s liturgy.

I can absolutely sympathize with people who, through no fault of their own, cannot attend Mass tonight or tomorrow during the day. I get that people have jobs. in some sectors, especially retail, this is the busiest time of the year. But, the whole tone of this thread just strikes me as minimalist. People just seem to be looking to do the least in order to meet their “obligation.”

It reminds me of a story I heard once about a priest who was praying his Breviary. A young seminarian guest who was to stay with him for awhile came while he was in the middle of his prayer. The seminarian, impressed that he was praying and not wanting to disturb him, quietly sat in the corner while Father finished his office. When he was finished, he threw his Breviary on the table and boldly declared, “Thank goodness. I got that damned thing over with for the day.”

I guess more than anything, I want to challenge those who are reading this thread to get past the mentality that participation at Mass is nothing more than an obligation to be met. It’s much more than that…it is entering into the living prayer of the Church’s liturgy.

Anyway, I think that this thread has gone on long enough, so this really will be my last post on the topic.
 
Well, for my part, I have a spouse who NEVER does Obligation Days, so I was kinda hoping that the Vigil Mass would count for both. I am happy to go twice in one day, or one Mass on each day, but if I don’t go to the Vigil Mass, he won’t go at all. I’m not really trying to get out of the obligation but I can see why it would look that way.
 
I had said I wasn’t going to post anymore to this thread, but I feel like I need to say something.

FWIW, I’m still not convinced. Every single priest with whom I’ve spoken (now at seven, each from different American seminaries) say that Mass Saturday evening does not work to satisfy the obligation. Now, we could all be wrong. And, none of the priests with whom i’ve spoken are Canon Law experts. I freely admit that I am not an expert in the field. But, basically, it sounds to me like we’re telling the faithful, “Yes, IC is important, but not so important that you actually need to celebrate the feast itself.” The readings may not matter in terms of meeting the obligation, but they very much matter in terms of one’s spirituality and praying with the Church’s liturgy.
I thought the dispute centered around when the solemnity technically ends, as Sundays in Advent trump solemnities. I admit there was real ambiguity there.

If the argument instead boils down to, “The readings should matter,” then isn’t it clear that Saturday evening can count for the Immaculate Conception, since canon law is clear that any Mass on the day of obligation satisfies that obligation? (thus the classic example of how a wedding Mass or funeral Mass fulfills a Sunday obligation if on Sunday, etc.)

I mean, I agree with you - as did Dr. Peters in his first blog post - that it’s ideal if one does assist at a Mass of the solemnity being celebrated. But what’s ideal and what fulfills an obligation that binds under pain of grave sin are two different matters, right?

After all, I’m technically not violating any precepts of the Church if I go a year in mortal sin, and only then - in time for my “Easter duty” - choose to go to Confession. But that doesn’t mean I haven’t been lax; of course I have, if I do that! Lax and as foolish as a human being can possibly be…

… but I haven’t technically violated a canonically binding precept, and isn’t that the question here? Not what is ideal but what the law requires?

If so, I for one - as mostly an observer in this debate - am convinced by Dr. Peters, Vico, et al. Their conclusion doesn’t mean a Catholic who goes to one Saturday evening Mass for the IC obligation, and one Sunday morning Mass, has worshiped with the mind of the Church or in union with his local church. It just means that he isn’t guilty of the mortal sin of violating the letter of the law of a precept of the Church.

Framed that way, Dr. Peter’s answer seems pretty clear, doesn’t it?
I can absolutely sympathize with people who, through no fault of their own, cannot attend Mass tonight or tomorrow during the day. I get that people have jobs. in some sectors, especially retail, this is the busiest time of the year. But, the whole tone of this thread just strikes me as minimalist. People just seem to be looking to do the least in order to meet their “obligation.”
Take heart. I think most of the people in this thread are just being nerdy and academic in their interest. I think most of us want to go to Mass for the Immaculate Conception as well as for Sunday.

I, for one, intend to go Saturday morning and Sunday morning, even though I could, if I wanted to, sleep in tomorrow and do Saturday night and Sunday morning. I’m not doing that, though, because of my own volition I want to celebrate our Blessed Mother’s Immaculate Conception and am looking forward to doing so with much enthusiasm and delight. 🙂
I guess more than anything, I want to challenge those who are reading this thread to get past the mentality that participation at Mass is nothing more than an obligation to be met. It’s much more than that…it is entering into the living prayer of the Church’s liturgy.
A good reminder for all of us indeed. Thank you.
Well, for my part, I have a spouse who NEVER does Obligation Days, so I was kinda hoping that the Vigil Mass would count for both. I am happy to go twice in one day, or one Mass on each day, but if I don’t go to the Vigil Mass, he won’t go at all. I’m not really trying to get out of the obligation but I can see why it would look that way.
Ah, I’m sorry. For the record, I didn’t think it looked like you were trying to get out of the obligation. As I said above, I truly believe that most of this thread’s participants are interested in this question on a theoretical level. From what I can see, we all want to celebrate the Immaculate Conception and are looking forward to doing so, including you. 🙂
 
Ok, but it seems pretty clear you are adding the word EACH, because otherwise the latin and english are plainly against your opinion
I think that by not keeping to the definitions, misunderstandings occur. Although there is an obligation on every holyday, it is allowed to fulfill the first of two adjacent holydays in the evening of that holyday and the second in the previous evening. So we know that for this situation with two obligations, some say one Mass suffices, others say two.

CIC
Canon 202 defines the day,
Canon 1246 stipulates the days that must be observed,
Canon 1247 stipulates the Mass obligation on the day,
Canon 1248 allows the extension to the previous day for the Mass obligation fulfillment,
Canon 1248 allows any Catholic rite, which of course, can have different readings as there is variation in the days of liturgical celebrations.

CCEO
Canon 1545 defines the day,
Canon 880.3 stipulates the days that must be observed,
Canon 881.1 stipulates the liturgical obligation on the day,
Canon 881.2 allows the extension to the previous day for the liturgical obligation fulfillment
 
This doesn’t sound right to me. The Saturday vigil Masses are for Sunday.
 
…But, the whole tone of this thread just strikes me as minimalist. People just seem to be looking to do the least in order to meet their “obligation.”…
I don’t think so at all. The thread started with a question about which Masses fulfilled the obligation, not how to get out of the obligation, or how to meet the minimum required, or even how to make one Mass count for two obligations.

Holy Mother Church gives us an obligation to assist at Mass on these days of precept. I think it’s a good thing to try to figure out how to fulfill that obligation. The people asking about what Mass fulfills the obligation are trying to live in the life of the Church. Some were genuinely confused by what they were told from the pulpit, or read in a bulletin, and are seeking clarity.

Also, there are many liturgy geeks on these boards–many people who enjoy teasing out the fine details of the liturgical books and interpretations of canon law and various councils. They get to these details by debating the fine points. Again, I think the majority of these people deeply love the Lord and are devoted to His Church. They are arguing the nits because that is how their minds work.
 
Although there is an obligation **on **every holyday, it is allowed to fulfill the first of two adjacent holydays in the evening of that holyday and the second in the previous evening. So we know that for this situation with **two **obligations, some say one Mass suffices, others say two.

CIC
Canon 202 defines the day,
Canon 1246 stipulates the days that must be observed,
Canon 1247 stipulates the Mass obligation on the day,
Canon 1248 allows the extension to the previous day for the Mass obligation fulfillment,
Canon 1248 allows any Catholic rite, which of course, can have different readings as there is variation in the days of liturgical celebrations.

CCEO
Canon 1545 defines the day,
Canon 880.3 stipulates the days that must be observed,
Canon 881.1 stipulates the liturgical obligation on the day,
Canon 881.2 allows the extension to the previous day for the liturgical obligation fulfillment
Much clearer, but you are still adding a plural whereas the canon mentions one obligation: to sanctify the feast days by participating in Mass during the times prescribed for each feast.
 
Much clearer, but you are still adding a plural whereas the canon mentions one obligation: to sanctify the feast days by participating in Mass during the times prescribed for each feast.
Although there is an obligation **on **every holyday, it is allowed to fulfill the first of two adjacent holydays in the evening of that holyday and the second in the previous evening. So we know that for this situation with two days, some say one Mass suffices, others say two.
 
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