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snowlake
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Thanks for your response! I appreciate corrections. However, I DO have some things to say in defense of my analysis, but have to go to a doctor’s appt right now. Later!
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Cat
Guest
Yes.
I hope they will move here. Our houses are a lot cheaper than Chicagoland!
NIU is not in our diocese, but it’s the closest large university. I majored in music there for a while, and now I call upon the NIU professors for my classical music competition. They have a beautiful pipe organ. I don’t know how many organ majors they have.
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Cat
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Cat
Guest
If you were to approach me and ask me to consider using the organ, I would say that I don’t know how to play it.
I know that some people assume that a pianist can just play the organ, too, but no, that’s not true at all. Other than the keyboard, the instruments have very little in common.
In fact, someone on this thread earlier suggested using the electronic keyboard on an organ setting. That would not work for a pianist, because the organ is attacked with a “rolling” motion of the fingers and hand. I’m sorry if I’m using an incorrect terminology, but when my piano teacher gave me a little tutorial on the organ (she played pipe organ, and YES, I wish I had learned back then!), she showed me the “rolling” of the fingers and hand to get the “smooth” sound of the organ. Pianists don’t do this. We get our legato with a different technique. So to me, a pianist playing a keyboard on “organ” setting sounds like that person at the mall demonstrating the fun organ. Yucko.
In case you’re wondering, I would not be able to learn to play the pipe organ now because of the problems with my feet. I’m not even sure I could climb up onto an organ bench, and I would probably have some real problems climbing down! It’s too bad. I would like to learn to play, and I could probably convince my parish to donate the practice time. Oh, well. If I hear of any children who are taking lessons, I will definitely contribute financially. What a great investment!
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snowlake
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I was the one who suggested a keyboard on organ setting. I too am a professional pianist,and was quite unaware that the “rolling” touch that you describe would also be necessary on a keyboard. I’m totally ignorant about organ technique. My response to those who ask if I would play organ at Mass is the same as yours: I don’t know how! I also refuse to play the piano because of it’s secular sound, although I know that you disagree w. that. I respect your position, and wait for clarification from the Bishops.
The keyboards that I’ve had experience with(I’m thinking of a Rogers kbrd and a Clavinova) have had a number of Organ sounds that were quite good(in my uneducated opinion). Maybe we should investigate this further and see what the results would be. Of course it would be nothing like a real organ w/ a real organist, but it might be better than none at all, and a somewhat-good substitute when an organ is being fixed, or when the organist is absent.
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snowlake
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PROMETHEUM X: Thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut, I was going to get back to you. I still intend to do so, but am letting thoughts mull about in my head. It is so incredibly hot herethat I can’t stand to stay in this computer room any longer (no AC).
How’s that for an excuse?
How’s that for an excuse?
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Canto
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firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/06/are-these-the-ten-worst-hymns-of-all-time/#more-18062
Listen to We Remember by Marty Haugen
The song is announced and then it starts with keys, drums etc, sounding like some 70s or 80s lite pop song, and you can hear in the background the priest saying “the body of Christ.”
or 
Personally
Listen to We Remember by Marty Haugen
The song is announced and then it starts with keys, drums etc, sounding like some 70s or 80s lite pop song, and you can hear in the background the priest saying “the body of Christ.”
or Personally
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harmonymelody
Guest
Rhythm is an essential ingredient of music. A musician must know how to create alluring tunes and must possess the sense of rhythm.
A pianist can play the right keys but if the timing is not right, then music can be meaningless and unpleasant to the ear.
Here are a few ways to keep steady rhythms:
tapping. When one plays on complicated music composition, one can take some time to clap and get back one’s rhythm and timing.
Take Your Piano Playing To The Next Level
YokeWong.net
A pianist can play the right keys but if the timing is not right, then music can be meaningless and unpleasant to the ear.
Here are a few ways to keep steady rhythms:
- Loud counts!
Another way in learning rhythm and keeping track of it is counting out loud. Counting loudly makes our minds comprehend the rhythm pattern and it is imprinted in our minds. If a pianist begins to count the rhythm in a musical composition from one to four and then repeats it again and again, then the rhythm begins to flow into the keys of the piano, as well. A pianist can relate the notes to the beats, in the music scores, easily, when he/she keeps count of the beats. - Clap, Tap, catch rhythm!
tapping. When one plays on complicated music composition, one can take some time to clap and get back one’s rhythm and timing.
- Imaginary piano!
- Rhythm Accompaniment/Metronome
Do you have a keyboard that comes with rhythm accompaniment?
This is no doubt one of the best way to keep a piano player rhythmically straight!
You are probably aware that most piano player are solo player.
We don’t get to play in a band or an orchestra. The best way to imitate an ensemble setting is by using a rhythm accompaniment tool.
Take Your Piano Playing To The Next Level
YokeWong.net
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Cat
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It seems to me that the bishops HAVE given clarification–they allow piano in the Masses in their dioceses.
Every diocese across the U.S. that I have visited has used piano in the Mass, with rare exceptions.
Even in the Cathedral in our city, the Masses include piano.
Our bishop is extremely conservative and orthodox. He is often summoned to Rome to be part of various committees. He has his doctoral degree in canon law. He is considered an “enemy” of liberals and modernists, and I personally have heard these people denounce our bishop in the most strong language using names that I cannot use on CAF or any decent online setting.
He has stated in his newspaper column (Catholic newspaper), on his radio show, and during speeches at various conferences his preference for traditional music, Latin, and pipe organ.
But he allows piano in the Masses, including in Masses that he celebrates.
There is a television broadcast in our city of the Mass–it’s done for the shut-in audience. The bishop is fully aware and supportive of this. Piano is the instrument used.
There is also a very lively Lifeteen Mass at our parish on Sunday evenings, with a rock band. The bishop is fully aware of this and supportive.
Other bishops across the country, including the wonderful Bishop Burke in St. Louis (who has since moved to Rome), have allowed piano for years.
Isn’t this a public endorsement of the piano? Surely all of these excellent bishops of such high calibre and reputation are not in violation of the documents? That’s something I simply refuse to accept. If they are wrong about this, then as far as I’m concerned, they are not trustworthy about anything. But I don’t believe they are wrong about piano and other instruments. I think that it is the laypeople who are being more Catholic than the bishops who are incorrectly interpreting the various documents and using them to criticize something that has been declared “clean” by the apostles.
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ProVobis
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Cat, your overdramatization isn’t necessary. You’re bishop isn’t on trial here. He’s a very good man; in fact, I have even written him to thank him for the Latin Masses he helped set up in your diocese. And I’ve spent quite some time in Rockford as my parents lived there.
I think we’re all aware of all the Baldwins and Steinways and Yamahas in church these days. We have no doubt the bishops aren’t planning to sell them off yet. But we’re discussing whether the Abba-inspired type of music played on them is the direction the Vatican wants to go forward with. I for one hope not, but I’m not going to walk out of a Mass because the pianist has overplayed “On Eagle’s Wings” on it, though I’ve been tempted.
I think we’re all aware of all the Baldwins and Steinways and Yamahas in church these days. We have no doubt the bishops aren’t planning to sell them off yet. But we’re discussing whether the Abba-inspired type of music played on them is the direction the Vatican wants to go forward with. I for one hope not, but I’m not going to walk out of a Mass because the pianist has overplayed “On Eagle’s Wings” on it, though I’ve been tempted.
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snowlake
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I don’t think the use of piano is “unclean”, but I do think it’s inappropriate. This is based on the entire history of its use. It’s especially inappropriate (in my opinion) when used with
the type of secular pop style music that I’ve been talking about. At least when it is used
for “regular” hymns it sounds exactly like what it is (should be): a secular instrument that
is being used in lieu of an organ because there IS no organ or organist. This is where I suggest trying a keyboard on organ setting to at least try to approximate an organ sound
(and the effects of this sound on the psychology of the congregation).
It is wrong to be more Catholic than the Pope, or the Bishops in union with him.But that’s not what we’re talking about here. If the Vatican says it is OK to use piano at Mass on a regular basis (instead of as an exception to the rule), then I’ll go ahead and do it.I won’t LIKE it, but I’ll do it. Just like you and chant. Please give me equal rights here.
We both should follow our consciences on this matter.
Remember that our Bishops have been at odds w/ the Vatican on other things, the new
English translation being an example. Sometimes it is better to err on the side of caution.
Another thing to keep in mind is that many Bishops have NO IDEA what is going on in some parishes (unless someone complains). They might not realize the extent of things.
(I’m not speaking of yours).
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snowlake
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I votefirstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/06/are-these-the-ten-worst-hymns-of-all-time/#more-18062
Listen to We Remember by Marty Haugen
The song is announced and then it starts with keys, drums etc, sounding like some 70s or 80s lite pop song, and you can hear in the background the priest saying “the body of Christ.”
Personally
. Thanks for this post Canto! This is the type of thing I’ve been referring to.City of God is another example.
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Cat
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ProVobis, I am asking you to please not speak to me as though I were a silly child.
I don’t understand what you mean by “overdramatization.” That’s just my way. I realize that not everyone will like my way or me, or feel comfortable with me, or be my friend. That’s fine, but I don’t want people to tell me that they don’t like me or inform me that my personality traits irritate them. That’s unkind and it hurts me and makes me feel as though I am trash.
You can disagree with my comments, but I wish you would refrain from disparaging my personality or my way of expressing myself.
Perhaps it would be helpful if before posting something, you try running your comment past a real person and seeing how they react. If you said to me, “Your dramatization isn’t necessary,” I’m pretty certain I would run away from you crying. It’s a hurtful, unnecessary comment.
Thank you.
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snowlake
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Oy yoy yoy!
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snowlake
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Praised be Jesus Christ!
Cat, I think he was just trying to calm you down, and insist that you don’t get so upset over things. It’s easy to misinterpret things when all we see is the printed word, with no
facial expressions or tone of voice heard. I know I’ve misinterpreted plenty already, and I
am just a new member! Looking through some older posts, I see how I misread some things to mean something different than was actually being said.
Peace be with you!
Gotta go again, it’s so darn hot in here, I’m going to my Mom’s in a nearby town to spend the night - she has central AC. I’ve practically melted away.Not used to this.
Keep the faith.
Cat, I think he was just trying to calm you down, and insist that you don’t get so upset over things. It’s easy to misinterpret things when all we see is the printed word, with no
facial expressions or tone of voice heard. I know I’ve misinterpreted plenty already, and I
am just a new member! Looking through some older posts, I see how I misread some things to mean something different than was actually being said.
Peace be with you!
Gotta go again, it’s so darn hot in here, I’m going to my Mom’s in a nearby town to spend the night - she has central AC. I’ve practically melted away.Not used to this.
Keep the faith.
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Prometheum_x
Guest
In terms of organ manual technique, you can get an appreciation for it by playing something like a 4pt hymn on the piano without the sustain pedal. Lots of finger substitutions in order to have sustained melodic lines. Without the pedal, you’ll likely have to cheat and clip one of the middle voices short in order to make any shifts happen smoothly, but there’s plenty of examples of that in piano literature too. Of course, there isn’t any dynamic control at the finger level.
In my experience, the digital keyboards have good sounds for rock or jazz organ, but their church organ sounds are simply atrocious. I’m familiar with a new church that doesn’t have an organ yet, and every once and a while they play the “organ” sound in an effort to be more “traditional”. Unfortunately, that attempt simply reinforces many people’s opinion of traditional: bad and boring.
I coined a little phrase to explain my views on the organ: There’s nothing quite like an organ played well; there’s also nothing quite like an organ played poorly.
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Prometheum_x
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I wish there was a Steinway at my church. . .
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benedictgal
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The electric piano at my parish does have that strange organ feature. It really lacks the majesty that the old richety organ at my dad’s parish has. In fact, the electric piano’s organ setting sounds more like the tract from “A White Shade of Pale” than anything remotely sacred.
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Prometheum_x
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Once upon a time, the organ was for all intents and purposes banned from use in the liturgy. This was in part due to a tendency to avoid all instruments (as many of the Eastern Churches do to this day), but also because the organ was strongly associated with the pagan cults and theater spectacles. That is to say, in common opinion and use, the organ was an exclusively secular instrument (or worse!). However, over time, the organ gradually became more an more prevalent in the Liturgy, until its common association was sacred.
Under the current line of thinking, perhaps the organ should have never been permitted into the liturgy, tainted as it was by its profane association. Nevertheless, it became a very important part of the liturgy of the Church, probably because of its rather incomparable excellence.
Today, whether for good or ill, we have something similar occurring. 100 years ago, the piano was explicitly banned, not because the striking of strings with felt mallets is repulsive to God, but because of the piano’s close association with rather secular settings: bars, salons, theaters, etc. One calls to mind images of Chopin playing for his artistic friends in the local salon, surrounded by clouds of opium smoke (when Chopin actually left his house).
Particularly in that European context, it is unsurprising that the piano was banned at the turn of the century. However, just like the organ, the piano is a marvelous instrument, and its great versatility means that it cannot be constrained to just one style or context. The piano is used in almost every style of western music, secular and sacred (particularly religious song), and it is for that reason that I question the assertion that the piano is an instrument which is:
“by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only.”
The fact is that today the piano is used for many sacred purposes; therefore, I can’t see how it is any longer suitable only for secular uses. Should this have happened? Perhaps not – I can only imagine the scandal the first time the piano was played in church. But to me, it isn’t a scandal – I’ve primarily heard the piano in sacred settings, and my first memories of the piano are those of my mom playing hymns on the piano.
How did this come about? I don’t know for sure, but there’s two factors that might have played a part. First is that the Church in the US hasn’t placed enough emphasis on music (in part because of the “low church” tradition inherited from the Irish Catholic immigrants), which has lead to a reliance on volunteers. It’s easier to play the piano than the organ at a mediocre level. Second is that religious expression in the US has been heavily influenced by the Baptists and the Pentecostals, who seem to have no problem with the piano. From revival music to the creation of CCM, the piano has become solidly incorporated in the popular religious expression in our country.
All else being equal, is the organ better suited to the Liturgy? Definitely. That’s why I’ve started taking lessons, so that I can gain at least a basic proficiency at it. But, I’m a pianist, and the pastor at my church has asked me to do music there, so I play the piano in a manner that I hope is worthy of the liturgy.
Under the current line of thinking, perhaps the organ should have never been permitted into the liturgy, tainted as it was by its profane association. Nevertheless, it became a very important part of the liturgy of the Church, probably because of its rather incomparable excellence.
Today, whether for good or ill, we have something similar occurring. 100 years ago, the piano was explicitly banned, not because the striking of strings with felt mallets is repulsive to God, but because of the piano’s close association with rather secular settings: bars, salons, theaters, etc. One calls to mind images of Chopin playing for his artistic friends in the local salon, surrounded by clouds of opium smoke (when Chopin actually left his house).
Particularly in that European context, it is unsurprising that the piano was banned at the turn of the century. However, just like the organ, the piano is a marvelous instrument, and its great versatility means that it cannot be constrained to just one style or context. The piano is used in almost every style of western music, secular and sacred (particularly religious song), and it is for that reason that I question the assertion that the piano is an instrument which is:
“by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only.”
The fact is that today the piano is used for many sacred purposes; therefore, I can’t see how it is any longer suitable only for secular uses. Should this have happened? Perhaps not – I can only imagine the scandal the first time the piano was played in church. But to me, it isn’t a scandal – I’ve primarily heard the piano in sacred settings, and my first memories of the piano are those of my mom playing hymns on the piano.
How did this come about? I don’t know for sure, but there’s two factors that might have played a part. First is that the Church in the US hasn’t placed enough emphasis on music (in part because of the “low church” tradition inherited from the Irish Catholic immigrants), which has lead to a reliance on volunteers. It’s easier to play the piano than the organ at a mediocre level. Second is that religious expression in the US has been heavily influenced by the Baptists and the Pentecostals, who seem to have no problem with the piano. From revival music to the creation of CCM, the piano has become solidly incorporated in the popular religious expression in our country.
All else being equal, is the organ better suited to the Liturgy? Definitely. That’s why I’ve started taking lessons, so that I can gain at least a basic proficiency at it. But, I’m a pianist, and the pastor at my church has asked me to do music there, so I play the piano in a manner that I hope is worthy of the liturgy.
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