MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary

[floresco]

ABsolutely! The unbloody part. That is a true reason to celebrate.

Note that in the article and important noun is elided in the first sentence. “Same” is an adjective (one that may be immediately contradicted, btw, in English). So this causes us to ask an important question. The same what? Well, the same sacrifice seems the obvious answer. An unbloody sacrifice. So it is the same something or other, but not really exactly the same. What it is not, is the same scene. It is not the same suffering, the reason we would truly be mourning. Though the substance remains, the accidents have no nerve endings. That one change from bloody to unbloody is quite significant.

My thoughts on this are influenced by Cardinal Ratzingers Spirit of the Liturgy. In this book he keeps coming back to the idea that the essential nature of the Mass is a sacrifice. It is the Sacrifice on the Cross and our own sacrifices of our selves united to this. I do not think the change from bloody to unbloody changes the significance of the Sacrifice at all. This is the Sacrifice which is the propitiation for our sins. There is far more to sacrifice than suffering. It is our redemption and reconciliation with God. It is not mournful but solemn and glorious.

 

[nicolakirwan]

I do not think so. The emphasis is almost always on the downbeat. (the chorus, not the verses), though I do not consider syncopation the work of the devil.

Christian Contemporary is mostly based on the Pop genre, which emphasizes the back beat. This came through the evolution of jazz, r&b, to rock, to pop.

From a secular perspective, Wynton Marsalis speaks of this in an NPR interview here:
npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=94198246

There are a lot of Christians who write about it and have posted stuff on Youtube. I won’t post specific sources, as I don’t necessarily agree with the conclusions they draw, but the more strident criticisms of contemporary Christian music (aside from simply "It’s too noisy!) often make some reference to the back beat.

 

[Cat]

I am not a real musician by any means. And this isn’t “slowly.”

But where do I send the check.

youtube.com/watch?v=pebZOHoQbYE

That’s really beautiful! Thanks for posting.

I would slow it waaaay down for my “bet”, and use all males. The “verses” of this song are essentially “chanted,” because they are all one note or only a few notes. I think this is called “plainchant.”

I would also remove any contractions or contemporary words like “ain’t”.

No one would have any clue, and I’m guessing that many people would be thrilled with the “return of ancient chant” and ask if “Palestrina wrote it.”

 

[Cat]

The flow of the rhythm would still be “contemporary.” The emphasis placed on the backbeat is what makes contemporary/Christian pop its own thing. The type of instrumentation can accentuate or exaggerate it, or subdue it, but it’s still in the flow of it.

I still like “Our God is an Awesome God” though.

Oh, of course I would change the rhythm. Make it all even beats, just like the chant we hear in Mass every week during the Psalm.

You wouldn’t recognize it by the time I got done with it! Good thing I’m not in any position in my parish to try this, because I would be on this in a heartbeat! What an interesting experiment. I might be able to start a whole new fad–really good contemporary Christian songs and hymns “sanitized” for traditional Christians!

Oh, wait–heartbeats–can’t have that in a Mass, can we?

 

[Sarabande]

I am not a real musician by any means. And this isn’t “slowly.”

But where do I send the check.

youtube.com/watch?v=pebZOHoQbYE

Oh, my goodness! As soon as I started playing that, my 3-year-old screamed and then exclaimed, “Mommy!!! STOP IT! I DON’T LIKE THAT!” She has an eclectic taste in music (We purposely did that because we wanted her exposed to all kinds of music - she can go from loving a song by Brahms that her father and I are practicing at the piano to loving the Zumba music that I exercise and dance to), but this she did not like.

 

[Sarabande]

You know, I would love to try something. I think that if Our God is an Awesome God were sung “Gregorian chant style,” slowly, accapella, and with a male cantor chanting the verses, while a male chorus joined in on the responses–I would be willing to bet hard cash that no one would guess that it’s a “contemporary hymn.” Do any of the rest of you who are real musicians agree with me?

It is my opinion that there are contemporary hymns you can take, change the counterpoint a bit and make them sound like old-fashioned, 19th century hymns. I hear my one music director do it all the time with the 1970/80s Catholic hymns which used to always remind me of folk songs or show tunes. Change rhythms and such around and you could possibly turn Awesome God into something that sounds like chant.

A little off-topic, but I actually like some of the covers of rock/folk songs Gregorian does. You should write them ask if they can do a cover of “Our God is an Awesome God”. I’m going to look around and see if they already did one. I still wouldn’t use their covers for liturgy because of the accompaniment style (and because of the lyrics, of course), but I wonder if they did it a capella, changed the text to sacred text, it might be appropriate. Here is where people took a sacred style of singing (its origins have been for the sacred even for other faiths) and turned it into something secular. It’s weird to hear at first, but it is kind of interesting. ****It doesn’t really sound like chant, but their vocal style of singing is for chant. ****

This is what they did with “The Sound of Silence”.
youtube.com/watch?v=F7c44bXST-o

And here’s their cover of “Stairway to Heaven”
youtube.com/watch?v=CKn5lydAZ6k

 

[pnewton]

My thoughts on this are influenced by Cardinal Ratzingers Spirit of the Liturgy.

Ditto. There is always room to plug that book. I have worn out my copy. Interestingly enough, it was suggested to me by a rather traditional-minded chick here whom I got to know years back. This place (CAF) really can be a good resource if you consider seriously what others say, *then *disagree.


Every now in there something good may sink in that you might never have know if not through this place. I have been posting off the top of my head, but I will go back and see what the good Cardinal has to say.

There is far more to sacrifice than suffering. It is our redemption and reconciliation with God. It is not mournful but solemn and glorious.

There you go! Yet Mary at the foot of the cross could not feel any of this. I guess that is what I was saying. There is a difference. It *is *the same.

 

[pnewton]

I won’t post specific sources, as I don’t necessarily agree with the conclusions they draw, but the more strident criticisms of contemporary Christian music (aside from simply "It’s too noisy!) often make some reference to the back beat.

I know what you are saying. I grew up in the fundamentalist era of backmasking claims and links to paganism in rock. I just did not know that any in the Catholic Church believed this. I think the fruits of contemporary Christian music speak for themselves, at least in my life and my experience. It can be very conducive to prayer.

 

[floresco]

Every now in there something good may sink in that you might never have know if not through this place. I have been posting off the top of my head, but I will go back and see what the good Cardinal has to say.

That is what I was hoping you would do. There is a chapter specifically on music. I was actually looking through it trying to figure out how to summarize it for this thread but it was just too dense to do justice to it. That is a man who does not write in sound bites.

 

[pnewton]

That is what I was hoping you would do. There is a chapter specifically on music.

For what it is worth, that is one of my most oft read chapter as it pertains directly to my job at the parish.

 

[MissBorgia]

Monsignor plays the electric guitar at our Praise Mass. makes me sick. love the electric guitar…but not in that settng.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Lets see if we can all agree that there is such a thing as ‘musical abuse’ first, and then maybe discuss what that would entail.

My opinion is yes, it does exist and it would entail:

1. instruments mainly used for dance music and secular popular forms. Like non classical guitar, drums, and horns.
2. lyrics that do not reflect true catholic teaching (heretical) or are theologically ‘lite’ (God is great).

 

[Cat]

Lets see if we can all agree that there is such a thing as ‘musical abuse’ first, and then maybe discuss what that would entail.

My opinion is yes, it does exist and it would entail:

1. instruments mainly used for dance music and secular popular forms. Like non classical guitar, drums, and horns.
2. lyrics that do not reflect true catholic teaching (heretical) or are theologically ‘lite’ (God is great).

I don’t agree with the use of the phrase “musical abuse.” I have never seen this phrase in any church documents or any legitimate articles, or heard any priest or bishop use the phrase. Just because someone creates a phrase and uses it in their little part of the world and on CAF, doesn’t mean it’s correct for all the world.

Instruments used in dance music–you mean, all the orchestral instruments?

And what kind of dance?

Horns–so that means we should get rid of all those “horn settings” on the pipe organ, right? Trumpet, trombone, etc.

How about the winds? Bassoon, flutes, recorder, etc.–off the pipe organ, too?

In other words, only the principles, because they are the “purest” organ sounds, right? None of that other “worldly” stuff?

You do realize that a good pipe organ includes settings for reeds, brass, strings, etc.–all those “instruments.” So if it’s OK for the pipe organ to “imitate” instruments in the Mass, why isn’t it OK for the instruments themselves to be played in the Mass? (I’m taking pipe organ lessons, BTW, from an excellent teacher with a doctoral degree and 50 years of experience in liturgical settings.)

You think the phrase “God is great” is “lite?” How about “Great is the Lord.” (Psalm 48:1)? Too “lite” for you? Or is it the order of the sentence that changes it from “lite” to “heavy?” How about, “Awesome our God is”. Personally, I think this sounds like Yoda. But it is rather grand-sounding. Maybe it’s just that American English is so common and “peasant” compared to the Queen’s English. But that’s just personal opinion. God does not consider Americans to be “less” than the English just because we don’t talk the way they do.

As for your second point, I think before people can start saying that something is theologically questionable, there would have to be a person or organization that has been given authority by the Church to make those judgements and declare them to all the Church.

It’s just too easy for people to tear a perfectly good song (that they personally don’t like) to pieces and find some little point of contention and pick it to shreds. E.g., “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me”–too many Catholics assume that this means that all humans are wretches, and therefore the hymn is contrary to Catholic teaching. But that’s just their opinion, and who exactly are they to present their opinion as absolute truth? Nope, there has to be an Authority, not just my fellow parishioner or, heaven forbid, li’l ol’ me!

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Fair enough…

What in your opinion would be music in-appropriate for the Mass?

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I don’t agree with the use of the phrase “musical abuse.” I have never seen this phrase in any church documents or any legitimate articles, or heard any priest or bishop use the phrase. Just because someone creates a phrase and uses it in their little part of the world and on CAF, doesn’t mean it’s correct for all the world.

Instruments used in dance music–you mean, all the orchestral instruments?

No…the ones I listed. No need to interpret multiple paragraphs out of my 2 sentences.

And what kind of dance?

**Any dance… **

Horns–so that means we should get rid of all those “horn settings” on the pipe organ, right? Trumpet, trombone, etc.

How about the winds? Bassoon, flutes, recorder, etc.–off the pipe organ, too?

In other words, only the principles, because they are the “purest” organ sounds, right? None of that other “worldly” stuff?

You do realize that a good pipe organ includes settings for reeds, brass, strings, etc.–all those “instruments.” So if it’s OK for the pipe organ to “imitate” instruments in the Mass, why isn’t it OK for the instruments themselves to be played in the Mass? (I’m taking pipe organ lessons, BTW, from an excellent teacher with a doctoral degree and 50 years of experience in liturgical settings.)

Good for you! Must be kind of fun. Yes- I know the pipe organ has different sounds. At our NO parish, we have nobody to play the pipe organ.

Piano and choir is totally sufficient. I like a good classical guitar.

You think the phrase “God is great” is “lite?” How about “Great is the Lord.” (Psalm 48:1)? Too “lite” for you? Or is it the order of the sentence that changes it from “lite” to “heavy?” How about, “Awesome our God is”. Personally, I think this sounds like Yoda. But it is rather grand-sounding. Maybe it’s just that American English is so common and “peasant” compared to the Queen’s English. But that’s just personal opinion. God does not consider Americans to be “less” than the English just because we don’t talk the way they do.

As for your second point, I think before people can start saying that something is theologically questionable, there would have to be a person or organization that has been given authority by the Church to make those judgements and declare them to all the Church.

It’s just too easy for people to tear a perfectly good song (that they personally don’t like) to pieces and find some little point of contention and pick it to shreds. E.g., “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me”–too many Catholics assume that this means that all humans are wretches, and therefore the hymn is contrary to Catholic teaching. But that’s just their opinion, and who exactly are they to present their opinion as absolute truth? Nope, there has to be an Authority, not just my fellow parishioner or, heaven forbid, li’l ol’ me!

**I’m not picking on any particular song, although there are a few that bother me. Some do contain heretical language…
Personally I don’t like singing all the ol’ protestant songs when we have so many beautiful catholic ones to choose from. But…I sing them anyway.

What in your opinion would be music inappropriate for the mass? Anything? and…on what basis would you object to something?**

 

[Lawrence178]

I’m not sure why you are assuming that the people “raise the roof.” Another poster (not sure if it was you or not) descried the people as “rocking.”

All I said was that the people joined in the singing. It would be nice of you not to make assumptions about people and situations that you don’t know.

You know, I would love to try something. I think that if Our God is an Awesome God were sung “Gregorian chant style,” slowly, accapella, and with a male cantor chanting the verses, while a male chorus joined in on the responses–I would be willing to bet hard cash that no one would guess that it’s a “contemporary hymn.” Do any of the rest of you who are real musicians agree with me?

Raising the roof would be everyone running to the piano to join in singing the latest hit single. It takes away the focus that belongs to God.

The lyrics are sort of weird, but I wouldn’t mind it at all if it only had less of a distracting arrangement.

I am not a real musician by any means. And this isn’t “slowly.”

But where do I send the check.

youtube.com/watch?v=pebZOHoQbYE

That was an awesome arrangement until that man soloist came in. But overall, still waaaaay beating the original roof raiser.

Monsignor plays the electric guitar at our Praise Mass. makes me sick. love the electric guitar…but not in that settng.

:stretcher:

Lets see if we can all agree that there is such a thing as ‘musical abuse’ first, and then maybe discuss what that would entail.

My opinion is yes, it does exist and it would entail:

1. instruments mainly used for dance music and secular popular forms. Like non classical guitar, drums, and horns.
2. lyrics that do not reflect true catholic teaching (heretical) or are theologically ‘lite’ (God is great).

I don’t know, I don’t think it is so much the instruments as much as how they are put to use. For instance, the organ can be used to play some truly horrible and ill-fitted songs for Mass. But I have heard trumpets and trombones compliment the music at some churches beautifully.

Yes, theologically lite songs bother me, too. But I am not sure if I would say that using songs where that is the sole offence counts as musical abuse.

 

[Lawrence178]

In a sense, yes. In a sense, no. It is the Church’s teaching that was so well presented in the EWTN link. However, there is no wormhole. There is no smell of Jerusalem, clang of Roman swords or dirt of the Middle East appearing under the altar.

The Sacrifice is truly there, re-presented to us.

We walk by faith, not by sight (2 Cor 5:7).

I missed the EWTN link… If the thread grows to big between my checking, I just skim… Apologies

 

[iblessem]

I agree with Cat…thanks Cat

 

[seekerz]

Was the last supper a party?..a 'celebration?..

Or, was it a solemn reverent event?

Since the SACRIFICE of the mass (the eucharist) is the ‘source & summit’ of or lives…should it not be revered in the manner our Lord presented it?

So ‘reverent’ and ‘celebration’ cannot go together? Is the Church mistaken then, in using the terminology: celebrate, celebrant etc?

 

[seekerz]

I’m not sure why you are assuming that the people “raise the roof.” Another poster (not sure if it was you or not) descried the people as “rocking.”

All I said was that the people joined in the singing. It would be nice of you not to make assumptions about people and situations that you don’t know.

You know, I would love to try something. I think that if Our God is an Awesome God were sung “Gregorian chant style,” slowly, accapella, and with a male cantor chanting the verses, while a male chorus joined in on the responses–I would be willing to bet hard cash that no one would guess that it’s a “contemporary hymn.” Do any of the rest of you who are real musicians agree with me?

I’m not a ‘real musician’ but I agree with you. In fact, I suspect that in the days when Gregorian chants were ‘contemporary’ music, there must have been people upset to hear the monks ‘rocking’ at Mass! If only we had a time machine, we’d see these arguments for what they really are…