MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary

[pnewton]

We’re not talking about prayer in general , Cat. The thread is specifically about “liturgical” prayer at the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

I checked the OP. Yes, it is about music in liturgy, not music in general or prayer in the liturgy.

There are clear directives about liturgical music and the type that is acceptable to use in the liturgy

I think I have to disagree with this. The current directives about music leave pretty much all the judgement in the hands of those locally present, leaving them free to make pastoral, prudent choices. What we have instead are guidelines that ban no specific instrument, and no specific music genre.

 

[englishredrose]

But don’t we all find that silence differently?

I for one would be far from silent in a silent room but given music that I can relax with then I would be very at peace with God in silence. Silence to me also means my thoughts being silent not just the environment. In fact environmental silence is not what is really meant by being with God in Silence. It is our Hearts that are Silent as we are Happy to Just be with him in whatever space we are in with him. Silence is about not asking God for this and that in a quiet room. Or I should add, it isn’t just about not asking God for this or that in a quiet room.

As christians we are taught that our personal prayer need not disrupt others, in fact no one else will know we are praying. We can give all the outward signs that can lead others to think we are praying but in reality only God knows exactly when we are praying or not. We are not meant to bully others into our requirements. Cooperate worship, church worship, community worship is different. We come together to worship God together and that is what we are there to do. Not really to be just us with him. We can do that anytime in our week. But that hour or so with God in Church with others, we cannot do at any other time in our week. We can choose to grumble about the music and liturgy abuse and this and that if we so wish, but we are forgetting this unique time we have together in church with others. Our personal preferences can be adhered to at any time in our lives with God. But Services are collectively worshipping God together and it isn’t just about what we want but being there for God with God with others. I think we forget why we are in Church. Not to grumble about the politics of the church service but there to worship God collectively. It that simple but if you wanna make it a mountain then go ahead but for me when I’m in church, yeh the sermons can be boring at times yeh, I have my own struggles with silence and being in church and so read in communion to help and it does help me. But am not complaining and niggling on a public forum. Any specific problem like that I have gone to the priest and yes I am Anglican but no it isn’t any different in that if you are struggling with any part of the service then the priest is the best person to ask and allow him to guide you.

We are not there to control our worship to God but to simply worship God with others. We can be with God at any moent of our lives but we cannot be with God with others at any moment with our lives. Make the most of what we have and don’t throw it away please.

 

[violetmarie]

if you don’t like our singing get up here and join us!

i wish i could say that out loud when i hear comments or get anonymous notes about our choir. there is only 16 of us. 2 teens, 2 thirty somethings and the rest are 70+, joan is 86!
be grateful there is even a choir! we are doing the best we can.

but i do agree that drums and certain instruments should be kept to a minimum. we should not be going to Mass to be entertained. BUT times are changing and i think there has to be some tweaking to keep the youngest from running to the other churches.

 

[Wendy1989]

Each time I see a post about drums and horns being inappropriate at a mass - I cringe! Too many Papal Masses that I’ve watched on TV have included drums and horns - along with a full orchestra of strings, reeds and (gasp!) a classical guitar or two! Also, be warned - don’t go to mass in any country in Africa or even Haiti if you don’t want to hear drums. As far as horns go - I like horns. I married a French Horn player. I really like when O Holy Night is accompanied by a French Horn, and a cello, and a violin and etc…

I agree that some of the more ‘modern’ music is abusive in more ways that I can count! Some of the composers seem to have not a clue when it comes to the average singing range and force octave + jumps during the Gloria or use a rather clunky progression and change time signatures 3 times in a measure. The worst abuse (aside from heresies) is a bad sound system. Those things need to be tuned up every now and again. There might be a buzz coming from a microphone that is just out of human hearing range that can make people physically ill. My parish’s sound system had that problem and we had several people that left the parish due to this situation.

That’s my 2 cents.

 

[Eldee]

No one bothers to sing. It’s like, “OK choir leader and choir, do your assigned jobs, while I just listen.”
I have a mediocre voice but I love to sing and yet no one around me seems to even try. In my view, “To sing is to pray twice” as they say,…it really glorifies the Lord.
So if I want to feel comfortable singing, and feel the power of song, I am forced to go over and worship with my Protestant brothers and sisters, now and then.
It’s not just my parish church. I find it rare to be in a Catholic church that sings more than one verse for the closing hymn.

 

[pnewton]

I find it rare to be in a Catholic church that sings more than one verse for the closing hymn.

That is what attracted me to my current parish. They sing!

 

[Tigg]

I checked the OP. Yes, it is about music in liturgy, not music in general or prayer in the liturgy.
I think I have to disagree with this. The current directives about music leave pretty much all the judgement in the hands of those locally present, leaving them free to make pastoral, prudent choices. What we have instead are guidelines that ban no specific instrument, and no specific music genre.

You may be right and it confuses me since the Church says, “The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art.” It further says that song and music fulfill their function when closely connected with the liturgical action according to certain criteria - one of those principally being the ***solemn ***character of the liturgy. Some Masses celebrate in song which is anything but solemn such as the youth Masses with drummer and guitar. They ROCK! And often propagate their style to other Masses:

Some of the worst liturgical abuses in the last decades have taken place in the name of appealing to the youth. Liturgists set up this category called the “youth” to be an archetype within a dialectical drama that pit tradition against innovation.

The youth were supposedly uninspired by solemnity and preferred laxity, pop music, casual celebrant demeanor, and practices such as liturgical dance and liturgical puppeteering that had no precedent in the entire history of the Roman Rite. The music in particular is my concern here, and in this area we heard the use of music that was not only incompatible with the true spirit of the Mass but utterly contrary to it. The idea was that the Catholic Church had better embrace this stuff else it risks losing an entire generation. So many parishes complied, first with set-aside youth Masses in which all heck broke loose, and any savvy Catholic in America knows exactly what I mean by that. Then the next step took place:

**The culture of these Masses began to flow into the other Masses at the parish. **The reductio ad absurdum was the phenomenon known as Life Teen, at which garage bands were encouraged to unleash their talents and celebrants were encouraged to use any and every method to entertain people rather than draw people’s attention toward the transcendent.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8365

Pastoral, prudent choices of thousands of different music ministers guarantees no continuity, no unity and no cohesion within the sacred liturgy. I find this contrary if we are to believe what the Church actually says.

 

[liturgyluver]

No one bothers to sing. It’s like, “OK choir leader and choir, do your assigned jobs, while I just listen.”
I have a mediocre voice but I love to sing and yet no one around me seems to even try. In my view, “To sing is to pray twice” as they say,…it really glorifies the Lord.
So if I want to feel comfortable singing, and feel the power of song, I am forced to go over and worship with my Protestant brothers and sisters, now and then.
It’s not just my parish church. I find it rare to be in a Catholic church that sings more than one verse for the closing hymn.

You have my sympathy. There is even a book about the non-singing phenomenon in many Catholic chuches by Thomas Day called “Why Catholics can’t sing?” I have found that the position varies from parish to parish and luckily I have finally found a parish where the majority sing - what a difference it makes when everyone is engaged in communal prayer and singing at mass.

What baffles me slightly is the denial that sometimes exisits among priests and music directors when you ask them about the silence at mass. The key catalyst for change appears to be when a parish priest takes an interest in the kusic, sings himslef and makes it quite clear that he expects everyone to join in. I have seen a nearby parish transformed from almost total silence to 80% participation (even unaccompanied at 2 masses) simply through the actions of the priest.

 

[anruari]

You have my sympathy. There is even a book about the non-singing phenomenon in many Catholic chuches by Thomas Day called “Why Catholics can’t sing?” I have found that the position varies from parish to parish and luckily I have finally found a parish where the majority sing - what a difference it makes when everyone is engaged in communal prayer and singing at mass.

What baffles me slightly is the denial that sometimes exisits among priests and music directors when you ask them about the silence at mass. The key catalyst for change appears to be when a parish priest takes an interest in the kusic, sings himslef and makes it quite clear that he expects everyone to join in. I have seen a nearby parish transformed from almost total silence to 80% participation (even unaccompanied at 2 masses) simply through the actions of the priest.

I have to say I think that that is a very pertinant point.
I believe it is symptomatic of the wider malaise that lingers at parish level throughout our church: Poor catechises, and unwillingness of our pastors at parish level to “Rock the boat” or preach in a strong, and engaging manner about matters that will really get people engaged. these are the real issues, and by “avoiding controversy” our pastors fail to teach the truth in a outspoken manner about the issues which are (ironically) most likely to be the ones which will result in the pews being filled by people hungry to hear the Truth from a preacher who is energised and unafraid to teach that truth.
Once in the pews to hear good preaching they are then well placed to hear about the Eucharist; To participate in the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist, and to ultimately rejoin communion with the church and receive the Eucharist themselves.

Teaching Sermons that are relevant to the Mass (a normal requirement for the Sermon) includes not must the topic of the Gospel, but any issue about the mass.
Therefore teaching about the importance of participation in the mass, including singing as well as other aspects, is a pertinent, and legitimate topic for a sermon. It remains legitimate for these messages to then be repeated as a side (point along with other sermon issues) until the message sinks in.

 

[pnewton]

You may be right and it confuses me since the Church says, “The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art.” It further says that song and music fulfill their function when closely connected with the liturgical action according to certain criteria - one of those principally being the ***solemn ***character of the liturgy. Some Masses celebrate in song which is anything but solemn such as the youth Masses with drummer and guitar. They ROCK! And often propagate their style to other Masses:

Pastoral, prudent choices of thousands of different music ministers…

But this is the way the Church works. You can’t believe the Church if the Church works the way the Church works???

 

[Cat]

You may be right and it confuses me since the Church says, “The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art.” It further says that song and music fulfill their function when closely connected with the liturgical action according to certain criteria - one of those principally being the ***solemn ***character of the liturgy. Some Masses celebrate in song which is anything but solemn such as the youth Masses with drummer and guitar. They ROCK! And often propagate their style to other Masses:

What is the definition of “solemn?”

Solemnity does not mean “slow” or “quiet”, and it does not mean “pipe organ only.”

Much Christian “rock” music is “solemn.”

Pastoral, prudent choices of thousands of different music ministers guarantees no continuity, no unity and no cohesion within the sacred liturgy. I find this contrary if we are to believe what the Church actually says.

May I ask if you are saying that all Masses all over the world should all have exactly the same music/hymns/instrumentals each hour/each day/each week?

That’s what I hear you saying in your post. Would you correct me if this is not what you are saying? Thank you.

 

[Sarabande]

What is the definition of “solemn?”

Maybe we should figure out how the Church defines as solemn. Is there anything that specifically describes it?

Just looking up the definition, itseems that words like formal, serious, somber, grave, sad, gloomy are commonly used to describe “solemn”. (The post would be too long if I posted all of the definitions. I think we pretty much understand what all of the above words mean. I also saw two, more positive-sounding words from the Merriam-Webster dictionary (although many of the other more sober words were also used): awe-inspiring and sublime.

Awe-Inspiring:
adjective
causing awe; spectacular; magnificent:

Then what are the definitions of the three words to describe “awe-inspiring”?

Awe is described as
1 : an emotion variously combining dread, veneration, and wonder that is inspired by authority or by the sacred or sublime

Spectacular: (as described for English language users - it was more defined)
causing wonder and admiration : very impressive

Magnificent
1
: great in deed or exalted in place —used only of former famous rulers
2
: marked by stately grandeur and lavishness
3
: sumptuous in structure and adornment ; broadly : strikingly beautiful or impressive
4
: impressive to the mind or spirit : sublime
5
: exceptionally fine

Sublime is described as
1
a : lofty, grand, or exalted in thought, expression, or manner
b : of outstanding spiritual, intellectual, or moral worth
c : tending to inspire awe usually because of elevated quality (as of beauty, nobility, or grandeur) or transcendent excellence

I would imagine that the use of the word “solemn” in terms of the Church’s use, would incorporate all aspects of it’s more serious and formal descriptions as well as the descriptions of awe-inspiring and sublime. But that is only my supposition. The question remains on how the Church, herself, actually defines what is “lofty”, “grand”, “elevated quality”, “impressive”, “spectacular”, “serious”, “formal”, etc. These words can be subjective (unless the Church does have a specific description) although there does seem to be a common belief of what represents these definitions, even if there may be some differing opinions on the outer edges.

So, are there detailed specifics to what the Church describes as such? Does the Church assumes that people would normally follow the commonly accepted ideas of those words? If there are no specifics, is there a reason for the lack of detail on it?

 

[anruari]

What is the definition of “solemn?”

Solemnity does not mean “slow” or “quiet”, and it does not mean “pipe organ only.”

Much Christian “rock” music is “solemn.”

Dictionary.com:

sol·emn
/ˈsäləm/
Adjective
1.Formal and dignified.
2. Not cheerful or smiling; serious.

OxfordDictionary:

Definition of solemn
adjective
1:formal and dignified:
a solemn procession
not cheerful or smiling; serious:
Tim looked very solemn
2:characterized by deep sincerity:
he swore a solemn oath to keep faith
Derivatives

solemnly

adverb
solemnness

noun
Origin:

Middle English (in the sense ‘associated with religious rites’): from Old French solemne, from Latin sollemnis ‘customary, celebrated at a fixed date’, from sollus ‘entire’

merriam-webster:

Definition of SOLEMN

1
: marked by the invocation of a religious sanction
2
: marked by the observance of established form or ceremony; specifically : celebrated with full liturgical ceremony
3
a : awe-inspiring : sublime
b : marked by grave sedateness and earnest sobriety
c : somber, gloomy
— sol·emn·ly adverb
— sol·emn·ness noun

Collins:

solemn (ˈsɒləm )

Definitions
adjective

characterized or marked by seriousness or sincerity ⇒ a solemn vow
characterized by pomp, ceremony, or formality
serious, glum, or pompous
inspiring awe ⇒ a solemn occasion
performed with religious ceremony
gloomy or sombre ⇒ solemn colours

In the English language it would not be correct to describe Christian Rock as “Solemn” - entirely the opposite. Some worship music from the praise and worship genre certainly can be but “Rock” music - No. you’re stretching the definitions of the word “rock”
Rock music is defined as a 4:4 rhythm, with a strong beat. using Guitar and Bass Guitar and drums. (other instruments may be included). It follows a Verse - Chorus - Verse pattern which is highly structured.

 

[TimothyH]

Definition of solemn
adjective
1:formal and dignified:
a solemn procession
not cheerful or smiling; serious:
Tim looked very solemn
2:characterized by deep sincerity:
he swore a solemn oath to keep faith

God forbid that we should be cheerful or that we ever smile in Church.

The fact that we are adopted sons and daughters of God, invited to the wedding feast, should never be something to cheer about. You would think smiling is a mortal sin or something.

-Tim-

 

[Sarabande]

Rock music is defined as a 4:4 rhythm, with a strong beat. using Guitar and Bass Guitar and drums. (other instruments may be included). It follows a Verse - Chorus - Verse pattern which is highly structured.

Ok… we do have to be careful with this because a lot of music, including music which would be considered “solemn” by most people, would also have a 4:4 rhythm and it can
have the verse-chorus-verse structure (such as in what some would considered the more “dignified”, “traditional” hymns). Even the sublime “Miserere” by Allegri goes back and forth from the simple chant of the original and then answered by a more ornamented choral section. What you described are just the nuts and bolts of certain compositions. Every composition will have the nuts and bolts. It is what the composer does with the music that differentiates one piece from another, where you can see how one composer might be more brilliant and better than another.

 

[anruari]

Ok… we do have to be careful with this because a lot of music, including music which would be considered “solemn” by most people, would also have a 4:4 rhythm and it can
have the verse-chorus-verse structure (such as in what some would considered the more “dignified”, “traditional” hymns). Even the sublime “Miserere” by Allegri goes back and forth from the simple chant of the original and then answered by a more ornamented choral section. What you described are just the nuts and bolts of certain compositions. Every composition will have the nuts and bolts. It is what the composer does with the music that differentiates one piece from another, where you can see how one composer might be more brilliant and better than another.

I set a list of criteria. You cant pull out just one of them and apply that to the whole statement.
similarly if I described a bird as a flying, feathered piped it would be daft to point out that humans are bipeds but not birds.

Rock is a specific musical genre. one of it’s many features is the dominance of a strong beat and 4:4 rhythm. another is the use of Electric Guitars.
but using Guitars dosn’t automatically make music Rock. - neither does the use of a 4:4 rhythm which is the most common rhythm used in western music.

 

[Tigg]

What is the definition of “solemn?” Solemnity does not mean “slow” or “quiet”, and it does not mean “pipe organ only.”

Much Christian “rock” music is “solemn.”

(Thank you, Sarabande for your post explaining solemn) I used that word because I took it directly from the Catechism.

(CCC1157) Song and music fulfill their function as signs in a manner all the more significant when they are "more closely connected . . . with the liturgical action, according to three principal criteria: beauty expressive of prayer, the unanimous participation of the assembly at the designated moments, and the solemn character of the celebration.

I would add that since the Mass is a reenactment of Christ’s suffering, death and offering of His total self to His Father, it speaks for itself. The solemnity of the Mass comes from Christ Himself, a Transcendent God, yet wholly approachable as in Communion.

Here are some thoughts from my all-time favorite, Venerable Fulton J. Sheen:

Hence the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. A temple without an altar of sacrifice is non-existent among primitive peoples, and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the , and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re-enacted the memorial of His
Passion.

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CALMASS.TXT

May I ask if you are saying that all Masses all over the world should all have exactly the same music/hymns/instrumentals each hour/each day/each week?

The point I was trying to make is that the guidelines issued for music appear to be very vague and contingent upon the personal taste of the music director and/or pastor. Yet it is to be held in the highest esteem within the liturgy. Personal taste aside, it appears to me that any type of music must be found “worthy” of that which we celebrate. It isn’t about us so much, but about the event in which we participate as Bishop Sheen’s quote says. Without clearer norms, we have what we have today with many complaining that the music, rather than aiding in prayer, is simply distracting.

 

[Sarabande]

I set a list of criteria. You cant pull out just one of them and apply that to the whole statement.
similarly if I described a bird as a flying, feathered piped it would be daft to point out that humans are bipeds but not birds.

Rock is a specific musical genre. one of it’s many features is the dominance of a strong beat and 4:4 rhythm. another is the use of Electric Guitars.
but using Guitars dosn’t automatically make music Rock. - neither does the use of a 4:4 rhythm which is the most common rhythm used in western music.

Yes, I understand that. I am a classical musician, too. But you did not clarify that in your other post. All you had was a list of definitions of the word “solemn” and how rock music was not “solemn”. My interpretation of your post read that because of the 4/4 rhythm with a strong beat, etc. it was rock music couldn’t be solemn (I do personally believe that rock music isn’t solemn music) and I just wanted to help clarify this as I thought there would be others who might also interpret it as such. If you had mentioned the bolded part in the other post, I would not have even brought it up. So I’m happy your clarified your thought.

Edited to add… now, I do read things very quickly as I don’t have much time to really go through things with too much detail during the day, so that may be why my initial interpretation of your post was such. I have to go study and learn my music scores while the kiddies are asleep, so I hope to have time to read in more depth later.

 

[hamburglar]

I went with my parents to their parish this weekend and was surprised to find electric guitars and drum sets playing music for Mass. I understand that musical instruments are only allowed to assist the people singing, and I doubt this rock band setup did that. Are these kind of instruments allowed during Lent, let alone the rest of the year?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I went with my parents to their parish this weekend and was surprised to find electric guitars and drum sets playing music for Mass. I understand that musical instruments are only allowed to assist the people singing, and I doubt this rock band setup did that. Are these kind of instruments allowed during Lent, let alone the rest of the year?

Music during mass is something that has been a real hot topic on these boards over the last few weeks. All I can say for sure, is that based on the posts and links that I have read, it would appear the rules regarding this issue are so vague that it is hard to tell what the actual position of the Church is. My personal position is that I do not like this style of music during mass but I do not see a problem with it for those that do enjoy it and feel that it is helpful to their faith. I simply do not attend the mass at my parish that has this music.