MERGED: New law in Ireland: priests must break Confessional seal re. abuse

[Corki]

Yes, but there is legislation pending in some states to place some restrictions on this priveledge. And no psych or lawyer is going to listen to their client say that they are going to do it again and just do nothing, well, maybe the lawyers would

Psychiatrists and lawyers keep privacy due to the rules of their profession or the licensing laws of their state. Neither psychiatry nor the practice of law is Constitutionally protected. The practice of religion is. Any state law that tried to change an essential element of the Sacrament would not be Constitutional.

 

[LaSainte]

The law specifically targets the Catholic Church. Besides, no priest in his right mind would break the Seal no matter what kind of secular law is thrown at him.

You said a priest should break the seal to save the life of a kid, yet, if you are pro-choice you have no moral grounding at all, considering abortions murder 4,000 innocents every day USA. Same goes for the government in Ireland.

The law targets the Church only in the sense that the Catholic religion is the only one with this peculiar type of practice and has recently had problems with its clergy molesting children and then covering it up. That’s like saying that laws against ponzi schemes target corrupt businessmen. Duh. When you have a whole section of society covering up crimes against children, the cops are probably going to start making laws against that sort of thing don’t you think?

And what in the world makes you think I’m pro-abortion? I am and always have been pro-life.

 

[LaSainte]

Psychiatrists and lawyers keep privacy due to the rules of their profession or the licensing laws of their state. Neither psychiatry nor the practice of law is Constitutionally protected. The practice of religion is. Any state law that tried to change an essential element of the Sacrament would not be Constitutional.

Uh huh. This is the same rationale used by the ACLU to protect the members of NAMBLA. in fact, I’m sure they would LOVE to get in on this action

 

[Corki]

Uh huh. This is the same rationale used by the ACLU to protect the members of NAMBLA. in fact, I’m sure they would LOVE to get in on this action

Is NAMBLA a religion now?

The practice of a religion, in this case celebrating the Sacrament of Confession doesn’t hurt anyone. The fact that some bad people might participate in the Sacrament does not give the government the right to change the Sacrament.

 

[ConstantineTG]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_privilege_(United_States

The priest-penitent privileged is recognized in all 50 states, and for all religions (which have priests, or other spiritual leaders at least.)

The important thing is that the penitent approaches the priest AS priest, and not as a friend or something else. The courts cannot compel a priest to reveal what a penitent told him anymore than they can compel a psychiatrist or lawyer to reveal what their clients have said.

This is a good example because confidentiality is protected not only for religious clergy.

 

[John21652]

You cannot have freedom of religion when a religion systematically protects serial killers and child molesters. That has nothing to do with the freedom to worship. This is an issue of protecting the innocent.

And as many crimes as priests hear about in the confessional, I’m sure that serial murders and child molestations are few and far between. If I were a priest, I wouldn’t hesitate to protect a child even if it meant excommunication. Good thing I’m not one I guess, but if I had to leave the Church to save the life of an innocent child, I’m sure God would understand. Any parent who would honestly say that they would prefer a priest to keep the seal as opposed to saving the life of their child is sick.

You win my prize for the most short sighted post!

If you compell a priest to inform police of any crime, how many criminals do you think will come to confession? I’d suggest, only the ones who want to be caught! Of course, they might as well save everyone the trouble and go straight to the police. The reason the criminals go to the confessional is because they are feeling at least a spark of guilt. That’s a good start to getting a criminal to turn himself in and who better than a priest, protected by the rights of the confessional, to eventually get the criminal to turn himself in. Smart priests will, of course, keep their mouths shut despite this law.

I also have to ask, why is only the crime of child abuse being singled out as a reason why priests must break their silence? Why not rape and robbery and even stealing the next door neighbour’s lawn mower? Gee, police would be able to recover lawn mowers in double quick time!

Firstly, the law wont work because lawn mower thieves are not going to tell the local priest about it. Secondly, this law reflects nothing more than secular self righteousness and is a first step towards persecuting the Church.

 

[Corki]

You win my prize for the most short sighted post!

If you compell a priest to inform police of any crime, how many criminals do you think will come to confession? I’d suggest, only the ones who want to be caught! Of course, they might as well save everyone the trouble and go straight to the police. The reason the criminals go to the confessional is because they are feeling at least a spark of guilt. That’s a good start to getting a criminal to turn himself in and who better than a priest, protected by the rights of the confessional, to eventually get the criminal to turn himself in. Smart priests will, of course, keep their mouths shut despite this law.

Good point. And what is to stop someone who has abused a child from going to Confession and refusing to give the priest his/her name? There is no requirement to identify yourself to the priest when you go to Confession.

 

[LaSainte]

Is NAMBLA a religion now?

The practice of a religion, in this case celebrating the Sacrament of Confession doesn’t hurt anyone. The fact that some bad people might participate in the Sacrament does not give the government the right to change the Sacrament.

Hey it’s all in the constitution. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech. You can’t defend one without the other.

And the government isn’t changing the sacrament itself, but they don’t have to indulge every religious proclivity either. What’s to stop me from starting my own religion and using it as s front to cover up crimes and practice all sorts of immorality and craziness? There has to be a line.

 

[LaSainte]

First of all, the Constitutional protection is the freedom to practice religion,not just to attend worship. The Sacrament of Confession is an essential element of the Catholic faith.

There is not “sytematic” protection of any criminal in the Confessional. The priest has no idea what any given penitent is going to confess but once the confession begins, the seal is in place. Nothing can change that.

Reporting past child molestation is not saving the life of a child. That’s just being dramatic.

Look over at the other thread on this same topic. Fortunately the priests in Ireland are not inclined to be pressured into breaking the seal.

There is nothing so grave that it justifies leaving the Church or for a priest to turn his back on his flock and his holy vocation.

It’s being “dramatic” to say that someone who confesses to molesting children could molest and possibly kill other children if left unchecked? That’s funny. It seems that the Orthodox Jewish man who just kidnapped and dismembered that boy in NYC was well- known as a pedophile in that community but that it was quite tight-knit and nobody ever went to the authorities about it and minded their own business.

You might want to tell his parents that for members of the community to have called the cops and raised suspicion on this man BEFORE their son was found hacked up in several garbage bags on the kitchen counter would have been “dramatic”.

 

[acarlson]

Americans tend to forget that other countries, even in Europe, don’t have the same laws as we do. In America, we have freedom OF religion, but in Europe, it’s more like freedom FROM religion. In other words, in America, you can practice your religious beliefs with virtually no interference from anyone else, especially the government. The European tradition means that you’re free to believe as you wish, so long as you keep your religious beliefs behind doors. We simply can’t expect laws in Ireland to conform to our ideas of religious freedom. This kind of law would be a blatant violation of the Constitution in America; in Europe, not so much.

That being said, I pray that these priests will have the strength they’ll need to stand up for their faith and God in the face of secular laws.

 

[Corki]

Hey it’s all in the constitution. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech. You can’t defend one without the other.

And the government isn’t changing the sacrament itself, but they don’t have to indulge every religious proclivity either.

Each of the freedoms is different in principal and in practice. Freedom of speech is the freedom of individuals to speak but does not extend to any action beyond the words themselves. Freedom of religion protects individuals and churches and specifically protects action (practice).

What’s to stop me from starting my own religion and using it as s front to cover up crimes and practice all sorts of immorality and craziness? There has to be a line

Sure there’s a line - the line is where the valid practice of the religion directly hurts someone else or deprives them of freedom. That’s why a religion involving human sacrifice is not protected. And why forced marriages, or ritual mutilation, which are permitted in some religions, are not protected. Neither are crazy individuals who go off on their own and act in ways not sanctioned by the religion even if they do so in the name of the religion. But there is nothing about the valid practice of the Sacrament of Confession, including the protection of the seal, that hurts anyone.

 

[rick43235]

For centuries, rapists, mass murderers, arsons and treasons have been protected by the seal of Confession.

You say that like it’s a good thing.

 

[LaSainte]

You win my prize for the most short sighted post!

If you compell a priest to inform police of any crime, how many criminals do you think will come to confession? I’d suggest, only the ones who want to be caught! Of course, they might as well save everyone the trouble and go straight to the police. The reason the criminals go to the confessional is because they are feeling at least a spark of guilt. That’s a good start to getting a criminal to turn himself in and who better than a priest, protected by the rights of the confessional, to eventually get the criminal to turn himself in. Smart priests will, of course, keep their mouths shut despite this law.

I also have to ask, why is only the crime of child abuse being singled out as a reason why priests must break their silence? Why not rape and robbery and even stealing the next door neighbour’s lawn mower? Gee, police would be able to recover lawn mowers in double quick time!

Firstly, the law wont work because lawn mower thieves are not going to tell the local priest about it. Secondly, this law reflects nothing more than secular self righteousness and is a first step towards persecuting the Church.

Please. The reason child molesters are being singled out here is precisely because of what is known about them psychologically. They don’t just stop. It is a mental illness. How much guilt they feel has nothing to do with whether or not they will do it again. As I said, they do not stop unless they ARE STOPPED. Anyone who knows about their actions and does nothing about it save “council” them is complicit in any future crimes they might commit. The recidivism rate for pedophiles who are actually convicted and released from prison is over 50%. How many of these men who are never incarcerated or put on parole do you think victimize more than one child? There is NO CURE for this mental illness.

But please, yes, let’s compare forced sex with minor children to stealing lawn mowers. This is sickening.

 

[GwenL]

First point Imagine if the law goes into effect in Ireland. A priest is required to report to authorities when a penitent confesses the sexual abuse of a child. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that priests do this–report to authorities. Not gonna happen, can’t happen, but let’s assume.

After the first priest report of such a confession, exactly how many people do you think are going to be confessing the sexual abuse of a child? Right, zero.

Once the seal is broken, for any reason, penitents will no longer confess. End of story.

Second point. If you want the priest to be required to report on child sex abuse, why stop there? To be consistent, such a law must require the priest to report on murder, rape, armed robbery, kidnapping, sex slavery, you name it. Why stop with only one type of crime?

This proposed “law” is pure and simple an attack on the Catholic Church.

 

[Corki]

You say that like it’s a good thing.

It IS a good thing that the seal of Confession has endured for many centuries. I should have more precisely said “For centuries, the Confessions of rapists, mass murderers, arsons and treasons have been protected by the seal of Confession.”

 

[LaSainte]

Each of the freedoms is different in principal and in practice. Freedom of speech is the freedom of individuals to speak but does not extend to any action beyond the words themselves. Freedom of religion protects individuals and churches and specifically protects action (practice).

Sure there’s a line - the line is where the valid practice of the religion directly hurts someone else or deprives them of freedom. That’s why a religion involving human sacrifice is not protected. And why forced marriages, or ritual mutilation, which are permitted in some religions, are not protected. Neither are crazy individuals who go off on their own and act in ways not sanctioned by the religion even if they do so in the name of the religion. But there is nothing about the valid practice of the Sacrament of Confession, including the protection of the seal, that hurts anyone.

Many people would say that when the “valid practice of religion” leads to the protection of known pedophiles who are almost certain to go on raping and molesting children because of an incurable mental illness, that this most certainly deprives their underage victims of freedom.

Hey, collateral damage though right? This thread is vomit-inducing.

 

[Corki]

Many people would say that when the “valid practice of religion” leads to the protection of known pedophiles who are almost certain to go on raping and molesting children because of an incurable mental illness, that this most certainly deprives their underage victims of freedom.

What it “leads to” is irrelevant in terms of the freedom of the practice of religion. No priest hears Confessions in order to protect criminals. He hears Confessions in order to absolve sins. He does not give any assistance to the person to sin again in any way or to deprive anyone of freedom.

The practice of the Sacrament is the same regardless of what is confessed. The penitent confesses, the priest absolves, the content is sealed.

The immoral act isn’t committed by the priest or by anyone else as part of the practice of their religion or even as a remote consequence thereof.

The person in his “mental illness” may sin again or he may get hit by a truck coming out of Confession and go to Heaven.

If this law goes into effect, no one is going to confess child abuse to a priest in Ireland. The chances of a child abuser abusing again aren’t then going to change and the chances of a poor soul making it to Heaven are going to decrease.

 

[BraveNewFamily]

This is an attack on the church. Considering that Ireland is the only country besides the Vatican in Europe that oes not allow abortion, this is a suprise. Honestly, woudn’t any priest in his right mind make part of the penance turning yourself in?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Honestly, woudn’t any priest in his right mind make part of the penance turning yourself in?

As I recall, a priest can not compel you to reveal your sins as penance. It would be an indirect way of breaking the seal of confession.

Can a priest require anonymous confessions? Would this alleviate the problem? You can’t very well turn in a faceless, nameless voice.

 

[Corki]

As I recall, a priest can not compel you to reveal your sins as penance. It would be an indirect way of breaking the seal of confession.

I believe you are correct.

Can a priest require anonymous confessions? Would this alleviate the problem? You can’t very well turn in a faceless, nameless voice

Yes a pastor can determine that Confession in his parish will only be “behind the screen” unless there is a grave need (such as bedside in a hospital). My own parish only has “behind the screen” Confession.