MERGED: Pope Francis and Blessed Mother and orphans

[giancarlo_giann]

I don’t understand how you can deduct the reversion for Mary. Where in the scriptures do you find this affirmation. You don’t need Mary as an intersesor, you can go directly to the Father. When Jesus told us how to pray, he said “Our Father who art in heaven” not “Mary who art in heaven.” And to me it’s sacrilegious to see Mary so prominently displayed in every Catholic Church and Jesus displayed at the cross. My brothers, Jesus lives and he’s not at the cross. The more I search, the more I come to realize the that the Catholic Church is the church of Mary and the saints and not the church of Jesus Christ. Put Christ back were He belongs and get rid off all the other figures that have no place in the church.

 

[friardchips]

I don’t understand how you can deduct the reversion for Mary. Where in the scriptures do you find this affirmation. You don’t need Mary as an intersesor, you can go directly to the Father. When Jesus told us how to pray, he said “Our Father who art in heaven” not “Mary who art in heaven.” And to me it’s sacrilegious to see Mary so prominently displayed in every Catholic Church and Jesus displayed at the cross. My brothers, Jesus lives and he’s not at the cross. The more I search, the more I come to realize the that the Catholic Church is the church of Mary and the saints and not the church of Jesus Christ. Put Christ back were He belongs and get rid off all the other figures that have no place in the church.

This is not what Christianity teaches. If one approaches the Bible with an open heart and reads plenty and studies and listens and devotes oneself to prayers one will come to the correct understanding - even a bit of these, as well as receiving the sacraments of Holy Communion and attending the Sacrament of Reconciliation.What astounds me is that there is so much info. out there and so many of these same questions being asked and yet people come to the table making blanket statements such as this which are contrary to everything that has been taught in Christianity and indeed in the Scriptures. Would it not be best, if one has doubts, to read up about the holes in their knowledge, from Catholic sources, to see why we believe what we believe, first, before posting remarks that are contrary to other people’s well being. Maybe because this is a Roman Catholic website it might be more polite as a guest to raise objections in the form of questions. This is solid discussion then rather than simple denial of the Christian love for Our Lady, Queen and Mother.
God bless.

 

[michaelhager]

So I was on Facebook the other day, and was looking at #popefrancis, and there is this article titled, “Pope Francis, Mary Is Not My Mother, and I AM Not An Ophan”.

I didn’t understand why they posted it to the actual page for the Pope. It has taken things and twisted it very badly. I commented on the Facebook post, then one of my friends saw I did as well and posted the actual transcript of what the Pope said and it was of course deleted.

charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/45287-pope-francis-mary-is-not-my-mother-and-i-am-not-an-orphan

I understand there are many out here who don’t understand our teachings, and go after us, but I wanted others to see this. We need to defend the Church. To me that means being vocal when something is being misconstrued.

Very sad that supposedly re4sponsible journalists like Jennifer LeClaire can publish the actual quotes of people and either twist their meaning or not understand through their ignorance what was being said.

“The model of motherhood for the church is the Blessed Virgin Mary, who in the fullness of time conceived through the Holy Spirit and gave birth to the Son of God. Her motherhood continues through the church, who brings forth sons and daughters through baptism, whom she nourishes through the Word of God.”

This clearly says that Mary is the MODEL of motherhood for the church. Even a Protestant cannot argue with Mary’s example of obedience to God and her faithful nurturing of Jesus throughout His life.

Then it clearly says that the CHURCH brings forth sons and daughters through baptism, whom she [the Church] nourishes through the Word of God. Going into an article with a preconceived bias will always blind a person to the facts. Or prevent a journalist from understanding the English language.

As for the Pope’s tweet… it’s unfortunate that such a simple statement can cause so much uproar when taken out of context of the full message. It’s further unfortunate that that is the nature of tweets. I think the Pope’s tweet master may have misjudged that one.

 

[Dorothy]

I don’t understand how you can deduct the reversion for Mary. Where in the scriptures do you find this affirmation. You don’t need Mary as an intersesor, you can go directly to the Father. When Jesus told us how to pray, he said “Our Father who art in heaven” not “Mary who art in heaven.” And to me it’s sacrilegious to see Mary so prominently displayed in every Catholic Church and Jesus displayed at the cross. My brothers, Jesus lives and he’s not at the cross. The more I search, the more I come to realize the that the Catholic Church is the church of Mary and the saints and not the church of Jesus Christ. Put Christ back were He belongs and get rid off all the other figures that have no place in the church.

Mary says in Sacred Scripture: “He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His Name.”

Mary, in deep humility knows that everything she has comes from the Lord.

Yes, Jesus is risen, and He lives! AND we are to take up our cross and follow Him, so that we too can rise.

The Lord blessed Mary for our benefit. She is part of His perfect plan.

May our Lord Jesus Christ bless you!

 

[Memaw]

I had to respond back as Artworks wife, I was a very strong Catholic UNTIL I actually read the Bible for myself and recognized that Yeshua ha’Mashiach is the Hebrew Messiah. The son of GOD the creator of all things, and if so, everything must conform or fit exactly to the word of GOD… nothing added or nothing subtracted. You will note that any time Yeshua (Jesus) or even Shaul (Paul, a Pharisee trained under Gamaliel) are ever speaking against anything that is associated with Judaism that it is NOT to do with what is in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible- Torah, wisdom writings and Prophets) but with Talmudic or Mishna teachings. That is the oral Rabbinical teachings that came along after the Babylonian exile. Is not the the inspired word of the GOD of Avraham,Yitz’çhak and Ya’ákov what we should be following if we say we follow Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) rather than all the so called teachings that come from the catechism and the vatican. I pray that you will research this for yourself. May God bless you (Numbers 6:24-26)

And you walked away from the true Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist??? Was it worth it? I think not. I pray that you will research this for yourself and not be influenced by false teachings. God Bless, Memaw

 

[friardchips]

Very sad that supposedly re4sponsible journalists like Jennifer LeClaire can publish the actual quotes of people and either twist their meaning or not understand through their ignorance what was being said.

This clearly says that Mary is the MODEL of motherhood for the church. Even a Protestant cannot argue with Mary’s example of obedience to God and her faithful nurturing of Jesus throughout His life.

Then it clearly says that the CHURCH brings forth sons and daughters through baptism, whom she [the Church] nourishes through the Word of God. Going into an article with a preconceived bias will always blind a person to the facts. Or prevent a journalist from understanding the English language.

As for the Pope’s tweet… it’s unfortunate that such a simple statement can cause so much uproar when taken out of context of the full message. It’s further unfortunate that that is the nature of tweets. I think the Pope’s tweet master may have misjudged that one.

I think it is very clear what the Pope was saying in his tweet which has been outlined in this thread for all to embrace with love.

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I just made the mistake of reading some of the posts by the public under the Pope’s actual tweet. There is such vitriolic opposition to the subject of Our Lady. It makes me ask: where does all of this hatred stem from? From men, is it some kind of sexism - how can a woman have a say in my life?; from women, is it because of opposition or jealousy? - I want to be for Christ, not have a woman with a say in how I go to Him?..I do understand that a lot is just to do with lack of understanding (I am merely speculating).

• I am not talking about any posters on this thread. I am responding to the general public’s response underneath the actual tweet. OP, if this is going too far off-topic, then I’ll stop here(?)

 

[Dorothy]

I think it is very clear what the Pope was saying in his tweet which has been outlined in this thread for all to embrace with love.

---

I just made the mistake of reading some of the posts by the public under the Pope’s actual tweet. There is such vitriolic opposition to the subject of Our Lady. It makes me ask: where does all of this hatred stem from? From men, is it some kind of sexism - how can a woman have a say in my life?; from women, is it because of opposition or jealousy? - I want to be for Christ, not have a woman with a say in how I go to Him?..I do understand that a lot is just to do with lack of understanding (I am merely speculating).

• I am not talking about any posters on this thread. I am responding to the general public’s response underneath the actual tweet. OP, if this is going too far off-topic, then I’ll stop here(?)

I believe that the malicious responses are inspired by the evil one. The evil one hates the Blessed Mother because her intercession has saved many souls. Another reason is because she is a human creature, and has so much grace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[artworks]

Mary was a humble willing servant and a good example of godly motherhood, but she does not bring forth sons and daughters through baptism or nourish us through the Word of God beyond her example of humble servanthood in the Bible. What concerns me more, though, is the notion of people being orphans if they don’t consider Mary their mother. Let’s consider this statement in the light of Scripture. Romans 8:14-17 shines light on the issue of orphans in Christ—there are no orphans in Christ:

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”

Nowhere in these verses does it make mention of Mary. Rather, we see the Father, the Christ and the Holy Spirit at work in a believer’s life. That’s Bible. If that’s not enough, Jesus Himself stated plainly: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you” (John 14:18). I don’t mean this in a sarcastic manner at all, but please note that Jesus did not say Mary would come to them, or that He would bring Mary with them, or that Mary is praying for them, or that they should pray to Mary.

There are other issues in the Catholic religion that don’t line up with Scripture, but suggesting that “The Christian who does not feel that the Virgin Mary is his or her mother is an orphan” contradicts the simplicity of the gospel and excludes the millions of Protestants around the world who honor Mary as the mother of Jesus but do not ask for her help from heaven. Christians are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1)—the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). Mary was a blessed vessel God chose to bring the Messiah into the world, but Jesus did not exalt her, and neither should we. Let’s stand with the simplicity of the gospel.

 

[friardchips]

I believe that the malicious responses are inspired by the evil one. The evil one hates the Blessed Mother because her intercession has saved many souls. Another reason is because she is a human creature, and has so much grace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think this too - evil is the spiritual source of opposition to Our Lady’s role in our lives as Christians. One day Satan’s time will be up, so he is worried, frantic, and filled with hatred, every time was say “Ave Maria!”. And who is it that will be treading on him with her heel: Our Lady, our Mother, leaning on her Beloved as they approach on the horizon with scores of angels flying banners of victory, with their trumpets being sounded, while the whole heavenly host of Saints are singing: “Hosanna in Excelsis!”

:harp:

 

[friardchips]

Mary was a humble willing servant and a good example of godly motherhood, but she does not bring forth sons and daughters through baptism or nourish us through the Word of God beyond her example of humble servanthood in the Bible. What concerns me more, though, is the notion of people being orphans if they don’t consider Mary their mother. Let’s consider this statement in the light of Scripture. Romans 8:14-17 shines light on the issue of orphans in Christ—there are no orphans in Christ:

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”

Nowhere in these verses does it make mention of Mary. Rather, we see the Father, the Christ and the Holy Spirit at work in a believer’s life. That’s Bible. If that’s not enough, Jesus Himself stated plainly: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you” (John 14:18). I don’t mean this in a sarcastic manner at all, but please note that Jesus did not say Mary would come to them, or that He would bring Mary with them, or that Mary is praying for them, or that they should pray to Mary.

There are other issues in the Catholic religion that don’t line up with Scripture, but suggesting that “The Christian who does not feel that the Virgin Mary is his or her mother is an orphan” contradicts the simplicity of the gospel and excludes the millions of Protestants around the world who honor Mary as the mother of Jesus but do not ask for her help from heaven. Christians are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1)—the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). Mary was a blessed vessel God chose to bring the Messiah into the world, but Jesus did not exalt her, and neither should we. Let’s stand with the simplicity of the gospel.

Respectfully, I ask you, because bridges are the way forward not gaps, whether you read the post earlier containing links to St. J P II comments? If not, please do read them, as they go some way to answering your befuddled quibblings.

 

[artworks]

Respectfully, I ask you, because bridges are the way forward not gaps, whether you read the post earlier containing links to St. J P II comments? If not, please do read them, as they go some way to answering your befuddled quibblings.

I’m merely quoting scripture I don’t consider that befuddling, the bible is the Holy word of GOD, my view is that He would not give us something that we can’t understand. Our very salvation depends on this.

 

[friardchips]

I’m merely quoting scripture I don’t consider that befuddling, the bible is the Holy word of GOD, my view is that He would not give us something that we can’t understand. Our very salvation depends on this.

He said to the apostles when they were confused after having heard him address the crowds with a parable that He spoke in such a way that the blind would see and so on and so forth…so the Bible is to be interpreted.

But yes, He gave us the commandments and beatitudes so that no one could get away with saying: I didn’t understand what you meant; however, one of those commandments is to love Mother and Father. This doesn’t specify between earthly mum and dad, and heavenly Mum and Dad, but please, if you know different then please show me where the differentiation is made? Some of learning is actually reading what other people provide - books or links - so to make statements without reading what is made available does not make for progress or even open dialogue. God bless.

 

[friardchips]

… the bible is the Holy word of GOD

I like what you said there. Or even Word of God. Christ is the Word of God. But I think confidence is important when projecting that statement, as you did, and rightly so.

, my view is that He would not give us something that we can’t understand. Our very salvation depends on this.

This is why He gave us the Catholic Church in the line of St. Peter to whom He gave authority. It is within this Church that authority over Scripture exegesis and interpretation has been granted and to whom one looks when wishing to learn more.

 

[Dorothy]

I’m merely quoting scripture I don’t consider that befuddling, the bible is the Holy word of GOD, my view is that He would not give us something that we can’t understand. Our very salvation depends on this.

Catholics believe in 1. Sacred Scripture

                            2. Tradition with a capital "T"

                            3. Magisterium (God given authority)

We do not believe in “Sola Scriptura”.

Scripture alone has caused many denominations because of various interpretations of God’s Word.

 

[Church_Militant]

Mary was a humble willing servant and a good example of godly motherhood, but she does not bring forth sons and daughters through baptism or nourish us through the Word of God beyond her example of humble servanthood in the Bible. What concerns me more, though, is the notion of people being orphans if they don’t consider Mary their mother. Let’s consider this statement in the light of Scripture. Romans 8:14-17 shines light on the issue of orphans in Christ—there are no orphans in Christ:

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”

Yeah, but here you completely ignore the fact that Mary’s motherhood and place in the Christian faith is the work of that same Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in these verses does it make mention of Mary. Rather, we see the Father, the Christ and the Holy Spirit at work in a believer’s life. That’s Bible. If that’s not enough, Jesus Himself stated plainly: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you” (John 14:18). I don’t mean this in a sarcastic manner at all, but please note that Jesus did not say Mary would come to them, or that He would bring Mary with them, or that Mary is praying for them, or that they should pray to Mary.

Scripture doesn’t use the words Trinity, Purgatory, or transubstantiation and yet they are all part of scriptural Christianity. Again, you ignore the very scriptural basis of the communion of saints. The Intercession & Communion of Saints

There are other issues in the Catholic religion that don’t line up with Scripture,

That’s not even remotely true and even so, you cannot supply one single verse of scripture where it says that everything must be found in scripture.
“If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?

but suggesting that “The Christian who does not feel that the Virgin Mary is his or her mother is an orphan” contradicts the simplicity of the gospel

There is no such thing as “the simplicity of the gospel”. It’s an unbiblical term concocted by n-Cs. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

and excludes the millions of Protestants around the world who honor Mary as the mother of Jesus but do not ask for her help from heaven.

That’s not our fault. They have done that to themselves and most are too scripturally ignorant to do more than parrot their pastor’s errors in teaching. I know this because I was one of you for about 35 years. Read My Testimony

Christians are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1)—the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). Mary was a blessed vessel God chose to bring the Messiah into the world, but Jesus did not exalt her, and neither should we. Let’s stand with the simplicity of the gospel.

Jesus did not exalt Mary? You’re kidding right? What was she at the wedding in Cana in John 2, chopped liver? If her place as Queen Mother of the Davidic messianic king doesn’t qualify, I don’t know what would. Psalm 118 sums it up best.23] This is the LORD’s doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m merely quoting scripture I don’t consider that befuddling, the bible is the Holy word of GOD, my view is that He would not give us something that we can’t understand. Our very salvation depends on this.

Really? Then why do you n-Cs have so many divergent and different interpretations of the scriptures? Such confusion cannot be of God according to 1st Corinthians 14:33. It seems like every time you guys disagree you start another church…a denomination of one.

Why then does 2nd Peter 3:16 say, “speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” and then James 3:1 says, “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.”

You cannot supply a single verse of scripture where it lays claim to being the ultimate and final authority for all that Christians believe and practice, which makes the Sola Scriptura doctrine contrary to it’s own premise and therefore a false doctrine by its own standard. Read the Bible all the way through (as I have many times!) and if you can’t find it then you need to come talk to us about what it really does say.

Here’s a hint… Look up 1st Timothy 3:15.

(Back later…I’m off to dinner at church.)

 

[artworks]

You have asked some very pertinent questions and I would be remiss not to address them, it is true the bible does not specifically teach sola scriptura however having said that II Timothy 3:14-17, II Corinthians 1:13-14, I Corinthians 4:5 to name a few, agree with me that I don’t need a pope, priest or even a pastor to work out my salvation, Philipians 2:12-13. One more thing before I go, no matter what office one holds within the body of Christ we are all just the body, Jesus Christ is THE HEAD without Him the body is nothing. Matthew 16:18 Jesus is the Rock(Petra, a mass of connected rock) Peter is the stone(petros a piece of the connected rock) I didn’t say that the Septuagint brings this to light, check it out, further Jesus goes on to say I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, hell-English, hades-Greek, sheol- Hebrew, these are all the same place, (not to be confused with the lake of fire, a place for the wicked) but the place where the faithful went until Christ’s ascension, Christ Himself overcame the gates of hell, hades, sheol, , overcoming death, The keys are another issue, and can be dealt with, another time perhaps, I’m off to Israel to study some Hebrew, and discover some more of what Jesus really said. Shalom and God bless.

 

[Church_Militant]

You have asked some very pertinent questions and I would be remiss not to address them, it is true the bible does not specifically teach sola scriptura

Then why do you still assign to the Bible an authority that it never claims?

however having said that II Timothy 3:14-17,

Which says…***"[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. ***" But what it does not say is that the scriptures are profitable, but not the final or ultimate authority, and Paul nowhere even infers that they are.

II Corinthians 1:13-14,

Which reads…"[13] For we write you nothing but what you can read and understand; I hope you will understand fully, [14] as you have understood in part, that you can be proud of us as we can be of you, on the day of the Lord Jesus." Which does not at all assert scripture is the sole and final authority and neither does it disagree with Paul clearly stating that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth.

I Corinthians 4:5

Which says…"[5] Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." This has nothing at all to do with this topic and is irrelevant. Did you misquote?

to name a few, agree with me that I don’t need a pope, priest or even a pastor to work out my salvation, Philipians 2:12-13

Which says…"[12] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; [13] for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." This helps your case not at all. In fact it clearly shows that Paul functioned in his priestly ministry (see Romans 15:16) and placed them under obedience to Christ through him in the context of the church.

One more thing before I go, no matter what office one holds within the body of Christ we are all just the body, Jesus Christ is THE HEAD without Him the body is nothing. Matthew 16:18 Jesus is the Rock(Petra, a mass of connected rock) Peter is the stone(petros a piece of the connected rock)

Your scholarship is poor in this assertion because Jesus never used those Greek words with regard to Peter. He spoke Aramaic which is what is used many times over to give Peter that same name. See these two articles to get it right.
Peter the Rock and Peter the Rock

…snip for relevance…

The keys are another issue, and can be dealt with, another time perhaps,

Here, these should get ya started…
Peter’s Authority
Don’t Revelation 3:7 and Isaiah 22 point to Christ - not Peter - as having the keys of David?
Was James the Real Leader of the Early Church?

And there’s a thread where we have discussed an anti-Catholic who probably holds the same position that you do. (SPLIT) Mike Gendron’s “Who Holds the Keys?”

I’m off to Israel to study some Hebrew, and discover some more of what Jesus really said. Shalom and God bless.

I thought you just told us that we could all just read it and understand it for ourselves? Isn’t that what your scripture quote was supposed to mean? Now it looks like you have to go all the way to Israel to study Hebrew to understand? Contradictory much?

 

[artworks]

My apologies I Corinthians 4:6 should have been my reference.

 

[raouldiz1]

Some thoughts:

How can the woman whom Jesus loved be without influence on him? If I, a mere mortal, had loved my own physical mother and because of that allowed her to “interfere” with my work (I am a lawyer and clients would go to her first and after that I would surely give them a hefty discount in fees or give them free legal help altogether), what more Jesus.

Whenever I ask the Blessed Mother for help with Jesus, I am always reminded of his first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana. After Mary informed Jesus of the newly-weds’ running out of wine (a sign of her motherly concern for the rest of us), Jesus disregarded his own seeming objection (what is it to you and me? – a question actually loaded with so much more theological significance) and quickly turned the water into wine.

As a Catholic I believe that at the moment of my death, our Blessed Mother (we Filipinos affectionately call her Mama Mary) will come to my side and take me to her Son. Then and only then will I fully and joyfully realize she is INDEED the Mother Jesus himself gave to me from the cross.

As a Catholic, I fear that those who die without believing in and honoring Mary for taking care of Jesus will never see the Mother of Jesus in heaven. This is very sad because they will never meet the Queen of Heaven and Jesus will never be able to tell them, “meet the woman I love; she took care of me and, through me, you also.”

Most of all, those who don’t believe in Mary and those who don’t honor her for being the mother of Jesus will make Jesus sad because they do not love the one he loves. You will know this sadness to a certain degree, if you love somebody who is not accepted by others close to you, such as your own parents and friends.

And once more I repeat what I partly said in an earlier post, our spiritual family consists in God being our father, Jesus as our brother, the Holy Spirit as our godfather (since he counsels and advises us), and Mary as our mother. Without Mary, our spiritual family is not complete and we are truly orphans. I do not presume but this might have been what Pope Francis had meant. God Bless You.