MERGED Questions about Mormonism

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The quote below is from mormon.org/joseph-smith

Can anyone elaborate and tell me what this means and provide background and context?

Members of the Mormon Church share their feelings and testimonies about Joseph Smith, the Prophet.
 
Three distinct persons but one God. The Father cannot be without the Son, Holy Spirit without Father and Son, etc. Think of a triangle. 3 distinct angles but without one it’s not a triangle. 1 triangle. It is the true, great mystery of God. It’s suppose to be confusing. If I’m wrong on Catholic teaching, please correct me 🙂
If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?
 
LDS doctrine states that the “atonement”(word is used A LOT by LDS leaders) took place in the Garden of Gethsemane not Christ’s death (“The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin”(CCC 601) Also "Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”(CCC 613))
Excellent point!

This is another case where everyone needs to be on the same pages as to what “atonement” means.

If you ask a Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc., about Christ’s “atonement”, the vast majority will say it is the death and resurrection. If you ask a mormon, they will say Gethsemane.
 
If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?
you are changing verbs to suit you. It is not that the CAN BE Gods. The Trinity IS One God. So, your following question is moot.

It is when you start asking questions like that that false doctrine, like Joseph’s, arises.
 
"Janderich:
Really? You think Mormonism is simple? I would beg to differ. In fact it is far far from it.
I agree. But what makes it NOT simple is all the changes in doctrine and attempts to hide the past and cover up the bad and horrible doctrines. Otherwise, it would be VERY simple.
I’m glad you see that it is not simple. We could of course argue this point about trying to hide bad doctrine. I do not believe the need to hide facts has made doctrine more complex. You have argued this point over and over in past posts so I don’t believe there is much point in arguing this with you now.
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Janderich:
You only wish the Bible we so clear, or you have not studied it well…
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TexanKnight:
Just because someone might understand it better than you they have not studied it well? That is an odd comment.
Callvenus made a plain assertion, “The scriptures call the Father, God, and they call the son, God, and they call the Holy Spirit, God. Period.” That statement is simply not true. To say such is to either have missed what the scriptures say or to ignore it. The scriptures in many points call Christ the Son of God. It is a very simple statement and obvious. The argument from the Catholic side must try to re-define what is meant by “Son of God”.
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Janderich:
Now, as to your numbers argument…Truth is truth and it matters not what the world believes. I hope no one, including yourself, decides what is truth by trusting in numbers. What of the early saints after the crucifixion. Should they have been concerned about numbers? They were but few. I say to you and to anyone, discover truth for yourself and forget numbers. Truth cuts it’s own way.
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TexanKnight:
The number that should alarm you is the huge numbers of Mormons leaveing the LDS Church as the discover more and more about LDS History.
The truth of the mater is that the LDS church has grown by about 2% per year over the last ten years. Before that time the church in many years grew much faster. Here is a graph of church membership by year.

Now you can argue about details but the data is clear. The LDS church continues to grow decade by decade.
 
I’m glad you see that it is not simple. We could of course argue this point about trying to hide bad doctrine. I do not believe the need to hide facts has made doctrine more complex. You have argued this point over and over in past posts so I don’t believe there is much point in arguing this with you now.

Yet you argued it. Desite your protestations, you cannot deny that Adam’God, god was a man, MMM, etc etc have been hidden, denied, and washed. You simply can’t change it.

The truth of the mater is that the LDS church has grown by about 2% per year over the last ten years. Before that time the church in many years grew much faster. Here is a graph of church membership by year.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/LDSGrowth.png/800px-LDSGrowth.png
Now you can argue about details but the data is clear. The LDS church continues to grow decade by decade.
Just the numbers, for people who hate reading footnotes:
Number of stakes 1999: 2542. 2009: 2865. Annual growth 1.2%
Number of districts 1999: 636. 2009: 616. Annual growth -0.33%
Missions 1999: 333. 2009: 344 Annual growth 0.3%.
Number of wards/branches 1999: 25,793. 2009: 28,424 Annual growth 0.98%
Total “official” membership 1999: 10,752,986. 2009: 13,824,854. Annual growth 2.5%.

of course, that is based on LDS reports. Those are not accurate. For example, my ex-wife and children are still listed on the official records, but all three left the Church. It is estimated that 30-50k people leave the LDS Church each year. So, your 2% frowth is nowhere near accurate.
 
Janderich, would you site where you got your graph and provide the underlying statistical report?
 
Janderich, would you site where you got your graph and provide the underlying statistical report?
The graph came from Wikipedia under the heading “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints membership history”. The church states membership numbers, stakes, and number of missionaries every year so the data is not difficult to find. Some try and argue the total membership, and of course some details can be discussed. However, wards(local units) and stakes (a group of 6-12 units) are also growing. As wards grow the need for buildings also increases so I doubt these numbers are inflated.
 
So you don’t have the primary source or the statistcal data? (Wikipedia is not a primary source.)

Makes for an unconvincing argument, on your part.
 
Some Church leaders taught so but the LDS Church takes a stance that it is up to the members to decide that for themselves. Same with contraception but they are against abortion…:confused:
“We have no revelation on abortion”

Didn’t you assume Mormons were pro-life? That’s certainly the image their church attempts to broadcast, and most Mormons, in fact, mistakenly believe their church opposes abortion and regards it as an objective evil. But not so.Indeed, the Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons.

The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the “fetus” has severe defects that will not allow the “baby” to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive God’s approval in prayer (156).

This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: “It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body” (156). Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as “a child,” “a baby,” a “human being,” and decried abortion as “killing,” “a grievous sin,” “a damnable practice.” Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, “We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).

It appears that this “unalterable” position, constantly “affirmed,” is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or reneged—though never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in “continuing revelation.” Don’t expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with “the times.”

A further statement in the Handbook says: “The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156).” While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is God’s desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.

Your Mormon friend will offer the excuse that his church leaves many decisions to the free agency (free will) of its people, and that abortion is one such concern. You might point out the irony in the fact that the Mormon church has no hesitation or uncertainty in making the following declarations:
  1. “The church opposes gambling in any form” (including lotteries). Members are also urged to oppose legislation and government sponsorship of any form of gambling (Handbook, 150).
  2. The church also opposes [correctly, of course] pornography in any form (158).
  3. Church members are to reject all efforts to legally authorize or support same-sex unions (158).
There is no need for a member to pray for divine guidance or seek church approval for such activities, for there will be no divine or ecclesiastical finessing of morality to permit even an occasional bingo game. A prayerful game of poker, unrepented, will bar the member from the temple and ultimate salvation; a prayerful, by-the-book abortion, unrepented, won’t.
catholic.com/tracts/mormon-stumpers
 
**

Your Mormon friend will offer the excuse that his church leaves many decisions to the free agency (free will) of its people, and that abortion is one such concern. You might point out the irony in the fact that the Mormon church has no hesitation or uncertainty in making the following declarations:
  1. “The church opposes gambling in any form” (including lotteries). Members are also urged to oppose legislation and government sponsorship of any form of gambling (Handbook, 150).
  2. The church also opposes [correctly, of course] pornography in any form (158).
  3. Church members are to reject all efforts to legally authorize or support same-sex unions (158).
There is no need for a member to pray for divine guidance or seek church approval for such activities, for there will be no divine or ecclesiastical finessing of morality to permit even an occasional bingo game. A prayerful game of poker, unrepented, will bar the member from the temple and ultimate salvation; a prayerful, by-the-book abortion, unrepented, won’t.
catholic.com/tracts/mormon-stumpers**

Or, the Mormon teaching on tattoos and body piercings:

“Reverence and respect for our bodies begets spiritual sensitivity to the gifts of the Holy Ghost. When we revere our bodies as temples of God, it is an outward manifestation of an inward commitment and is a testimony of our understanding that we are children of God.”

“Similarly, when individuals follow the body-defiling practices of multiple piercing and tattooing, they dull their spiritual sensitivity. Tattooing the body seems analogous to spraying graffiti on one of our beautiful temples.”

lds.org/ensign/1999/02/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

Similarly, a Mormon can’t pray and receive guidance that a tattoo or naval piercing is their God’s desire for them.

Yet, destroying the growing life (body) of the unborn is not irreverent, disrespectful or a defilement of the unborn’s body.

Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:
 
you are changing verbs to suit you. It is not that the CAN BE Gods. The Trinity IS One God. So, your following question is moot.
It is when you start asking questions like that that false doctrine, like Joseph’s, arises.
No, it is a hypothetical question that uses the principles established in the Nicene Creed that might help Catholics understand Joseph Smith’s revelation of eternal progression. I agree with the several Catholics who have stated that when it comes to the mysteries of God there are many things we don’t understand. My question was:

If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?

LDS believe that all persons existed as intelligences which are co-eternal with God. I would change the phrase “substance of God” to “authority of God” to suit myself as you say. But it does give an explaination of how the Law of Eternal Progression can be monotheistic in the same way that the trinity is monotheistic.
 
If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?
Just because you imagine such things, it doesn’t make it Truth. While Mormonism may be built on speculation, Christ’s Chirch is not.

God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This Mormon speculation is blasphemy. Why?

Because you are not God and never will be.
 
Just because you imagine such things, it doesn’t make it Truth. While Mormonism may be built on speculation, Christ’s Chirch is not.

God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This Mormon speculation is blasphemy. Why?

Because you are not God and never will be.
I agree with you that my imagination doesn’t make it true, but likewise, you denying it doesn’t make it untrue.
 
No, it is a hypothetical question that uses the principles established in the Nicene Creed that might help Catholics understand Joseph Smith’s revelation of eternal progression. I agree with the several Catholics who have stated that when it comes to the mysteries of God there are many things we don’t understand. My question was:

If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?

LDS believe that all persons existed as intelligences which are co-eternal with God. I would change the phrase “substance of God” to “authority of God” to suit myself as you say. But it does give an explaination of how the Law of Eternal Progression can be monotheistic in the same way that the trinity is monotheistic.
no, it is moot. what “can” happen is not relevant. The Trinity IS…HAS BEEN and always will. Your question is irrelevant
 
Mormons over-report numbers all the time so your statistics really mean nothing to me. Two news articles recently attested to these facts and they had to revise what they originally reported. Also, many people stay on the rolls of the church but dont believe a word of it.

The fact is that there is a multiplicity of gods in Mormonism. The thing that separated out the children of Israel from the Pagan religions that surrounded them is the belief that there is only one God and now the Mormons come along and say that there are many Gods. Look at the Book of Abraham, Chapter 4, and you will see that they do not even try to hide their polytheism. They constantly refer to the gods plans for the creation.

They think Elohim and Jehovah are two people. Ask any rabbi to read you the scriptures referring to these two titles and you will see that the two are one and the same. Jews recite the Shema everyday which states that there is ONE God.

There are tons of wholes in the theology as well. They will tell you that the reason we left heaven was to come down to earth to get bodies so we can progress to become like Heavenly Father (or basically become a god). Now, why would we leave a place only to work to get back to the same status as before? They will say it is because we need a body. However, they also believe that Jesus in his pre-mortal state already achieved godhood and that the holy ghost, who is a personage of spirit, also attained godhood which nullifies the argument that having a body is a necessity in order to become perfected. Unless you can be a god and not be perfect.
I’m glad you see that it is not simple. We could of course argue this point about trying to hide bad doctrine. I do not believe the need to hide facts has made doctrine more complex. You have argued this point over and over in past posts so I don’t believe there is much point in arguing this with you now.

Callvenus made a plain assertion, “The scriptures call the Father, God, and they call the son, God, and they call the Holy Spirit, God. Period.” That statement is simply not true. To say such is to either have missed what the scriptures say or to ignore it. The scriptures in many points call Christ the Son of God. It is a very simple statement and obvious. The argument from the Catholic side must try to re-define what is meant by “Son of God”.

The truth of the mater is that the LDS church has grown by about 2% per year over the last ten years. Before that time the church in many years grew much faster. Here is a graph of church membership by year.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/LDSGrowth.png/800px-LDSGrowth.png
Now you can argue about details but the data is clear. The LDS church continues to grow decade by decade.
 
Mormons over-report numbers all the time so your statistics really mean nothing to me. Two news articles recently attested to these facts and they had to revise what they originally reported. Also, many people stay on the rolls of the church but dont believe a word of it.
I agree totally. In fact, the LDS over reported membership in Brazil alone by 1 million people.

In fact, an elder from the records dept in SLC even stated they are losing numbers “at a record pace”.

Just one source here.
 
They will tell you that the reason we left heaven was to come down to earth to get bodies so we can progress to become like Heavenly Father (or basically become a god). Now, why would we leave a place only to work to get back to the same status as before? They will say it is because we need a body. However, they also believe that Jesus in his pre-mortal state already achieved godhood and that the holy ghost, who is a personage of spirit, also attained godhood which nullifies the argument that having a body is a necessity in order to become perfected. Unless you can be a god and not be perfect.
I believe you are correct in stating that the Holy Ghost, Christ, and Heavenly Father are all Gods and are perfect. However, you misunderstand our doctrine regarding eternal progression. We believe that all beings are capable of progression and that includes God the Father. However, he is not lacking knowledge or perfect attributes. We do not as you have said, “leave a place only to work to get back to the same status as before”. Instead we leave to progress and gain a higher state.

We came to earth to gain a body, a thing which we did not posses as spirits before this earth life. After we obtain the resurrection and a glorified body we rise to a higher state. The inheritance of higher states is the essence of progression. Thus God the Father of our spirits is above all and even Christ is subservient to Him. Joseph Smith said, “When I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before, and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel…” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p347-348)

Thus the supreme ruler of the universe is God the Father. He is over all and we worship him as such. The confusion arises when people try and see LDS belief through the lens of Trinitarian doctrine.
 
I agree totally. In fact, the LDS over reported membership in Brazil alone by 1 million people.

In fact, an elder from the records dept in SLC even stated they are losing numbers “at a record pace”.

Just one source here.
My argument is not directly with the stated numbers. Instead it is with the false presentation on this thread that the church is decreasing in membership. No data of total church membership indicates this is the case. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite.
 
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