MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[TexanKnight]

My argument is not directly with the stated numbers. Instead it is with the false presentation on this thread that the church is decreasing in membership. No data of total church membership indicates this is the case. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite.

Another misrepresentaiton from you. I never daid membership was decreasing. I said you should be alarmed at the numbers LEAVING the Church. And THAT was totally accurate.

 

[Porknpie]

My argument is not directly with the stated numbers. Instead it is with the false presentation on this thread that the church is decreasing in membership. No data of total church membership indicates this is the case. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite.

The Reuters artical from Twopekingguys post quotes Mr. Jensen clearly.

Areligious studies class late last reflecting greater secularization of society.
year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.
Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are “leaving in droves?” a woman asked.
“We are aware,” said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. “And I’m speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care.”
He then added: “My own daughter, one of them, has come to me and said, ‘Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?’” For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged,** “Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.” The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are “severely outdated.**”

Does this imply the Mormon church is going to change its doctrine, again?

 

[Jerusha]

Mormons change doctrine whenever it is convenient and advantageous to them.

 

[Callvenus]

I do not misunderstand the doctrine of eternal progression at all. The argument for eternal progression contradicts itself. Saying that God the father is still capable of progressing to something more would imply that he is not yet complete. You can not say that he needs to get to a point where he has progressed more but he is not lacking in anything. By simply saying that he must progress implies that he is not yet complete.

I believe you are correct in stating that the Holy Ghost, Christ, and Heavenly Father are all Gods and are perfect. However, you misunderstand our doctrine regarding eternal progression. We believe that all beings are capable of progression and that includes God the Father. However, he is not lacking knowledge or perfect attributes. We do not as you have said, “leave a place only to work to get back to the same status as before”. Instead we leave to progress and gain a higher state.

We came to earth to gain a body, a thing which we did not posses as spirits before this earth life. After we obtain the resurrection and a glorified body we rise to a higher state. The inheritance of higher states is the essence of progression. Thus God the Father of our spirits is above all and even Christ is subservient to Him. Joseph Smith said, “When I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before, and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel…” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p347-348)

Thus the supreme ruler of the universe is God the Father. He is over all and we worship him as such. The confusion arises when people try and see LDS belief through the lens of Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[Janderich]

"Janderich:

My argument is not directly with the stated numbers. Instead it is with the false presentation on this thread that the church is decreasing in membership. No data of total church membership indicates this is the case. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite.

Another misrepresentation from you. I never daid membership was decreasing. I said you should be alarmed at the numbers LEAVING the Church. And THAT was totally accurate.

I think perhaps we are talking past each other. I do not necessarily have a problem with what you have said. Rather it is what you have not said that is the problem.

It is possible that record numbers are leaving the church. And yes, it is concerning. However, the likely reason that people are leaving in record numbers is because the church is growing in numbers as never before.

Let me see if I can clarify the above. Let’s suppose I started a group with 10 members. Perhaps 2 left that year. The next year it increased to 100 members with a total of 18 leaving. I could rightly say that people are leaving in record numbers and I would be correct. However, the fact of the matter is my group is much larger then when I started. Would it be fair to present the number leaving without presenting the number joining? That is in essence the problem with yours and twopekinguys presentation of the matter.

 

[twopekinguys]

My argument is not directly with the stated numbers. Instead it is with the false presentation on this thread that the church is decreasing in membership. No data of total church membership indicates this is the case. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite.

Are you saying the church elder Jenson is wrong?

Let’s do the math here.

1.The church over reports members in Brazil by 1 million (how many other countries are over reported)

1. The church admits using a new method for calculating membership numbers for the 10 yr census, and also admits it may have overstated that growth based on the new method.
2. Elder Jensen makes a public statement that people are leaving in record numbers.

Add all 3 of these together, and it tells you that the church is growing?

Seriously?

By the way. Elder Jensen has served as church historian and recorder since 2005. Who better to trust?

ETA: Remember, it was the Brazilian government that caught the 1 million error, not the lds.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think perhaps we are talking past each other. I do not necessarily have a problem with what you have said. Rather it is what you have not said that is the problem.

It is possible that record numbers are leaving the church. And yes, it is concerning. However, the likely reason that people are leaving in record numbers is because the church is growing in numbers as never before.

Let me see if I can clarify the above. Let’s suppose I started a group with 10 members. Perhaps 2 left that year. The next year it increased to 100 members with a total of 18 leaving. I could rightly say that people are leaving in record numbers and I would be correct. However, the fact of the matter is my group is much larger then when I started. Would it be fair to present the number leaving without presenting the number joining? That is in essence the problem with yours and twopekinguys presentation of the matter.

No, the problem is with the mental gymnastics you are doing, in an attempt at trying to justify your position.

Sorry, your premise fails.

 

[Callvenus]

About 150 people also climbed up to Ensign peak in Salt Lake City and initiated a mass resignation from the LDS church.

articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-30/news/sns-rt-us-usa-utah-mormonsbre86000n-20120630_1_mormon-culture-church-spokesman-president-brigham-young

I guess this is just another point that the LDS church will try to say is no big deal. It is just a sign of things that are happening everyday. People are leaving the church in droves, both officially and unofficially.

Again though, statistics dont matter. I dont care if there was only 5 catholics on earth, it is the truth. The epistemology behind mormonism is so flawed, it laughable.

Are you saying the church elder Jenson is wrong?

Let’s do the math here.

1.The church over reports members in Brazil by 1 million (how many other countries are over reported)

1. The church admits using a new method for calculating membership numbers for the 10 yr census, and also admits it may have overstated that growth based on the new method.
2. Elder Jensen makes a public statement that people are leaving in record numbers.

Add all 3 of these together, and it tells you that the church is growing?

Seriously?

By the way. Elder Jensen has served as church historian and recorder since 2005. Who better to trust?

ETA: Remember, it was the Brazilian government that caught the 1 million error, not the lds.

 

[Janderich]

I do not misunderstand the doctrine of eternal progression at all. The argument for eternal progression contradicts itself. Saying that God the father is still capable of progressing to something more would imply that he is not yet complete. You can not say that he needs to get to a point where he has progressed more but he is not lacking in anything. By simply saying that he must progress implies that he is not yet complete.

You are now bringing up a differnt point. Before you said, “Now, why would we leave a place only to work to get back to the same status as before?” The error is with the idea that we get back to the same status as before. We of course do not. We are exalted to a higher state.

Your new argument is in regards to how God can be perfect and still progress. Well I gave it to you in my previous response. He progresses as His children are exalted. This does not mean he is not perfect, nor does it negate his Godhood. He does progress and he is perfect. These two are not contrary. The problem arrises when you begin with the Catholic view of God and try to make it fit with eternal progression.

 

[Callvenus]

I say we are working to get to the same place we were before because that is exactly what mormon doctrine states. It states that we ALREADY lived with Heavenly Father before coming to this earth and we are working to try to get back to living with him. It means, that we existed in full communion with God before this earthly estate and now we must earn a place back with him.

The question about God’s progression is simple. If Godhood can be obtained without a body, as demonstrated by Jesus being a god and creating the world prior to his obtaining of a body, then why would God not allow us to progress to godhood without a body? Why would he not allow us to progress in the pre-mortal existence to the status of godhood like Jesus Christ did and like the Holy Ghost did?

Also, I dont know what your definition of godhood is, but the term itself means that there is no more progression capable. Are you saying that if none of heavenly fathers children are exalted, then He ceases to progress? This is the logical problem with the doctrine of an infinite regression of gods. It says that God needs to progress to a status past godhood and that he is lacking in some manner despite being god.

You are now bringing up a differnt point. Before you said, “Now, why would we leave a place only to work to get back to the same status as before?” The error is with the idea that we get back to the same status as before. We of course do not. We are exalted to a higher state.

Your new argument is in regards to how God can be perfect and still progress. Well I gave it to you in my previous response. He progresses as His children are exalted. This does not mean he is not perfect, nor does it negate his Godhood. He does progress and he is perfect. These two are not contrary. The problem arrises when you begin with the Catholic view of God and try to make it fit with eternal progression.

 

[Janderich]

Are you saying the church elder Jenson is wrong?

Let’s do the math here.
1.The church over reports members in Brazil by 1 million (how many other countries are over reported)
2. The church admits using a new method for calculating membership numbers for the 10 yr census, and also admits it may have overstated that growth based on the new method.
3. Elder Jensen makes a public statement that people are leaving in record numbers.

Add all 3 of these together, and it tells you that the church is growing?
Seriously?

By the way. Elder Jensen has served as church historian and recorder since 2005. Who better to trust?

ETA: Remember, it was the Brazilian government that caught the 1 million error, not the lds.

You have cobbled a bunch of disparate statements and articles together to come up with a false premise. I’m sure we are not going to solve this today so I’ll let it go but I urge you to think of your own mental gymnastics. :ballspin:

 

[TexanKnight]

I think perhaps we are talking past each other. I do not necessarily have a problem with what you have said. Rather it is what you have not said that is the problem.

It is possible that record numbers are leaving the church. And yes, it is concerning. However, the likely reason that people are leaving in record numbers is because the church is growing in numbers as never before.

Let me see if I can clarify the above. Let’s suppose I started a group with 10 members. Perhaps 2 left that year. The next year it increased to 100 members with a total of 18 leaving. I could rightly say that people are leaving in record numbers and I would be correct. However, the fact of the matter is my group is much larger then when I started. Would it be fair to present the number leaving without presenting the number joining? That is in essence the problem with yours and twopekinguys presentation of the matter.

That is not true. Additionally, studies have shown that, despite more missionaries, you are NOT growing as you did…and that a huge majority of Mormons baptized in foreign countries are inactive within a couple of years. I saw this myself when I returned to where I served my mission about 7 years after I left the mission.

And as more and more people discover what you try to hide, they leave in droves.

 

[TexanKnight]

You have cobbled a bunch of disparate statements and articles together to come up with a false premise. I’m sure we are not going to solve this today so I’ll let it go but I urge you to think of your own mental gymnastics. :ballspin:

prove it

 

[Janderich]

I say we are working to get to the same place we were before because that is exactly what mormon doctrine states. It states that we ALREADY lived with Heavenly Father before coming to this earth and we are working to try to get back to living with him. It means, that we existed in full communion with God before this earthly estate and now we must earn a place back with him.

The question about God’s progression is simple. If Godhood can be obtained without a body, as demonstrated by Jesus being a god and creating the world prior to his obtaining of a body, then why would God not allow us to progress to godhood without a body? Why would he not allow us to progress in the pre-mortal existence to the status of godhood like Jesus Christ did and like the Holy Ghost did?

As LDS, our goal is not simply to be with him but to some day far far in the future to be like him. This must be understood if eternal progression is to be understood. Now, this doctrine certainly does have to do with gaining a body. The process of progression must follow eternal law. There is no way to become like God is now without gaining a body and passing through the experiences we are experiencing. Let me quote Elder Bednar on the subject:

Obtaining a tabernacle of flesh is an essential step in the process of becoming like our Heavenly Father. Our physical bodies make possible a breadth, depth, and intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal estate. As President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has taught, “Our physical body is the instrument of our spirit” (Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled [1991], 211). Thus, our relationships with other people, our capacity to recognize and respond to truth, and our ability to obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are amplified through our physical bodies. In this classroom of mortality we experience tenderness, kindness, happiness, sorrow, disappointment, pain, and even the challenges of physical limitations in ways that prepare us for eternity. Simply stated, there are lessons we must learn and experiences we must have, as the scriptures describe, “according to the flesh” (1 Ne. 19:6; Alma 7:12–13). (Ensign, September 2001, “Ye Are the Temple of God”)

Callvenus:

Also, I dont know what your definition of godhood is, but the term itself means that there is no more progression capable. Are you saying that if none of heavenly fathers children are exalted, then He ceases to progress? This is the logical problem with the doctrine of an infinite regression of gods. It says that God needs to progress to a status past godhood and that he is lacking in some manner despite being god.

Your definition of Godhood is that progression ends. That is not the LDS definition. To us progression is eternal. What a disappointment if we could ever reach the end of progression. Here is the third verse of the song "If You Could Hie to Kolob ":

The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

 

[Callvenus]

This is a typical way LDS try to argue by acting like those who leave the church dont know anything about LDS doctrine. I have spent 28 years in the Church. I was an elders quorum president and I served a mission. Up until two years ago, I listened to conference.

I understand that the doctrine is not just being with God but being like Him but I just showed you that Jesus Christ became like Him, a God that created the earth without obtaining a body.

And again, to what is he progressing to? He is already God and is already perfect. The definition of perfect means lacking nothing which means that there is no room to progress. I do not understand how this is so hard to understand. He is GOD but you think He still needs to progress? to what? To become a SUPER GOD? And I guess being with God for eternity might be a sad concept to you but I really dont care if I am learning more and I dont care to be in a “stagnant” state of being as long as I am with God.

God is perfect! He has nothing to progress to! He is the ONLY God and before Him, no God was formed and neither will there be after Him.

As LDS, our goal is not simply to be with him but to some day far far in the future to be like him. This must be understood if eternal progression is to be understood. Now, this doctrine certainly does have to do with gaining a body. The process of progression must follow eternal law. There is no way to become like God is now without gaining a body and passing through the experiences we are experiencing. Let me quote Elder Bednar on the subject:

Your definition of Godhood is that progression ends. That is not the LDS definition. To us progression is eternal. What a disappointment if we could ever reach the end of progression. Here is the third verse of the song "If You Could Hie to Kolob ":

 

[Callvenus]

Just being with God is a “disappointment” to the LDS. They need to be learning how to create their own planets to be satisfied.

This is a typical way LDS try to argue by acting like those who leave the church dont know anything about LDS doctrine. I have spent 28 years in the Church. I was an elders quorum president and I served a mission. Up until two years ago, I listened to conference.

I understand that the doctrine is not just being with God but being like Him but I just showed you that Jesus Christ became like Him, a God that created the earth without obtaining a body.

And again, to what is he progressing to? He is already God and is already perfect. The definition of perfect means lacking nothing which means that there is no room to progress. I do not understand how this is so hard to understand. He is GOD but you think He still needs to progress? to what? To become a SUPER GOD? And I guess being with God for eternity might be a sad concept to you but I really dont care if I am learning more and I dont care to be in a “stagnant” state of being as long as I am with God.

God is perfect! He has nothing to progress to! He is the ONLY God and before Him, no God was formed and neither will there be after Him.

 

[Janderich]

That is not true. Additionally, studies have shown that, despite more missionaries, you are NOT growing as you did…and that a huge majority of Mormons baptized in foreign countries are inactive within a couple of years. I saw this myself when I returned to where I served my mission about 7 years after I left the mission.

And as more and more people discover what you try to hide, they leave in droves.

Again subtlties…at different periods of time over the last 100 years as a percentage we have grown more. But in the last decade the total number of members is growing more than it ever has. I don’t find this surprising. As there are more people that join the church the percentage of growth levels out. So, in the last decade we have grown by about 2.5%.

As far as members baptized becoming inactive, this has always a problem. Almost any large church has this problem. People are baptized and then they fall away. You are not presenting anything new here this has been going on for a long time.

By the way it is misleading to show small periods of time, focus on a few members, or use one area of the world when talking about total membership of the church.

 

[TexanKnight]

This is a typical way LDS try to argue by acting like those who leave the church dont know anything about LDS doctrine. I have spent 28 years in the Church. I was an elders quorum president and I served a mission. Up until two years ago, I listened to conference.

I understand that the doctrine is not just being with God but being like Him but I just showed you that Jesus Christ became like Him, a God that created the earth without obtaining a body.

And again, to what is he progressing to? He is already God and is already perfect. The definition of perfect means lacking nothing which means that there is no room to progress. I do not understand how this is so hard to understand. He is GOD but you think He still needs to progress? to what? To become a SUPER GOD? And I guess being with God for eternity might be a sad concept to you but I really dont care if I am learning more and I dont care to be in a “stagnant” state of being as long as I am with God.

God is perfect! He has nothing to progress to! He is the ONLY God and before Him, no God was formed and neither will there be after Him.

That is the difference between Truth and False Doctrine. Since they believe God was once a sinful man, they MUST believe in progression.

 

[Janderich]

This is a typical way LDS try to argue by acting like those who leave the church dont know anything about LDS doctrine. I have spent 28 years in the Church. I was an elders quorum president and I served a mission. Up until two years ago, I listened to conference.

I understand that the doctrine is not just being with God but being like Him but I just showed you that Jesus Christ became like Him, a God that created the earth without obtaining a body.

And again, to what is he progressing to? He is already God and is already perfect. The definition of perfect means lacking nothing which means that there is no room to progress. I do not understand how this is so hard to understand. He is GOD but you think He still needs to progress? to what? To become a SUPER GOD? And I guess being with God for eternity might be a sad concept to you but I really dont care if I am learning more and I dont care to be in a “stagnant” state of being as long as I am with God.

God is perfect! He has nothing to progress to! He is the ONLY God and before Him, no God was formed and neither will there be after Him.

Let me quote Russell M. Nelsen on what it means to be perfect:

In Matt. 5:48, the term perfect was translated from the Greek teleios, which means “complete.” Teleios is an adjective derived from the noun telos, which means “end.”10 The infinitive form of the verb is teleiono, which means “to reach a distant end, to be fully developed, to consummate, or to finish.”11 Please note that the word does not imply “freedom from error”; it implies “achieving a distant objective.” In fact, when writers of the Greek New Testament wished to describe perfection of behavior—precision or excellence of human effort—they did not employ a form of teleios; instead, they chose different words.12

Teleios is not a total stranger to us. From it comes the prefix tele- that we use every day. Telephone literally means “distant talk.” Television means “to see distantly.” Telephoto means “distant light,” and so on.

With that background in mind, let us consider another highly significant statement made by the Lord. Just prior to his crucifixion, he said that on “the third day I shall be perfected.”13 Think of that! The sinless, errorless Lord—already perfect by our mortal standards—proclaimed his own state of perfection yet to be in the future.14 His eternal perfection would follow his resurrection and receipt of “all power … in heaven and in earth.”15 (lds.org/ensign/1995/11/perfection-pending?lang=eng&query=perfection+(name%3a"Russell+M.+Nelson")

Perfection is to reach a distant objective, not to be free from error. As Elder Nelson explains even Christ needed to grow during his mortal ministry.

 

[Callvenus]

So God is not free from error? So we can not trust in everything He says because He is not free from error according to you. Perfection means not lacking in anything and therefore not needing to progress to anything else. Perfection is the highest state of being.

God is perfect and the incarnation of God in the form of Jesus Christ is perfect.

Let me quote Russell M. Nelsen on what it means to be perfect:

Perfection is to reach a distant objective, not to be free from error. As Elder Nelson explains even Christ needed to grow during his mortal ministry.