MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[TexanKnight]

So God is not free from error? So we can not trust in everything He says because He is not free from error according to you. Perfection means not lacking in anything and therefore not needing to progress to anything else. Perfection is the highest state of being.

God is perfect and the incarnation of God in the form of Jesus Christ is perfect.

In the LDS faith, God has been wrong several times…polygamy, blacks/priesthood, adam/god, blood doctrine, etc.

 

[Janderich]

So God is not free from error? So we can not trust in everything He says because He is not free from error according to you. Perfection means not lacking in anything and therefore not needing to progress to anything else. Perfection is the highest state of being.

God is perfect and the incarnation of God in the form of Jesus Christ is perfect.

No. The main point I am trying to make is that “perfect” as given in the Sermon on the Mount and by Elder Nelson implies more than to just be free from error.

 

[twopekinguys]

You have cobbled a bunch of disparate statements and articles together to come up with a false premise. I’m sure we are not going to solve this today so I’ll let it go but I urge you to think of your own mental gymnastics. :ballspin:

LOL,

Regarding Brazil, look at ldschurchnews.com/articles/58508/Country-information-Brazil.html
and here

sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54497395-180/church-census-lds-reported.html.csp

I already gave you a link for Elder Jensen.

Here is the link to the Brazilian census. sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54497395-180/church-census-lds-reported.html.csp

These will keep you busy for a while.

It is all there, no mental gymnastics involved. Just statistical reporting.

 

[Janderich]

LOL,

Regarding Brazil, look at ldschurchnews.com/articles/58508/Country-information-Brazil.html
and here

sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54497395-180/church-census-lds-reported.html.csp

I already gave you a link for Elder Jensen.

Here is the link to the Brazilian census. sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54497395-180/church-census-lds-reported.html.csp

These will keep you busy for a while.

It is all there, no mental gymnastics involved. Just statistical reporting.

Nope. I read it the last time you posted this same info. on another thread. I didn’t agree with your conclusion then and I don’t agree with them now.

 

[TexanKnight]

Nope. I read it the last time you posted this same info. on another thread. I didn’t agree with your conclusion then and I don’t agree with them now.

That does make mean the conclusions you disagree with are not correct

 

[twopekinguys]

Nope. I read it the last time you posted this same info. on another thread. I didn’t agree with your conclusion then and I don’t agree with them now.

I understand it is hard to accept the facts, and of course that is entirely your call.

But, considering there are independent sources as well as mormon sources saying the same thing, it is kind of hard to ignore.

But, then again, don’t let something simple like facts get in the way of you making an informed choice as to what to believe.

 

[twopekinguys]

Again subtlties…at different periods of time over the last 100 years as a percentage we have grown more. But in the last decade the total number of members is growing more than it ever has. I don’t find this surprising. As there are more people that join the church the percentage of growth levels out. So, in the last decade we have grown by about 2.5%.

As far as members baptized becoming inactive, this has always a problem. Almost any large church has this problem. People are baptized and then they fall away. You are not presenting anything new here this has been going on for a long time.

By the way it is misleading to show small periods of time, focus on a few members, or use one area of the world when talking about total membership of the church.

1 Million missing members is a “few members”?

Here are figures that dispute the reported growth in the US. Notice the very last column on the right labeled “change”. You will see for the mormon church, 1990-2008 (18 yrs), change is 0. Not much of a growth there now is it?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Imcatholic7]

“We have no revelation on abortion”

Didn’t you assume Mormons were pro-life? That’s certainly the image their church attempts to broadcast, and most Mormons, in fact, mistakenly believe their church opposes abortion and regards it as an objective evil. But not so.Indeed, the Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons.

The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the “fetus” has severe defects that will not allow the “baby” to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive God’s approval in prayer (156).

This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: “It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body” (156). Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as “a child,” “a baby,” a “human being,” and decried abortion as “killing,” “a grievous sin,” “a damnable practice.” Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, “We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).

It appears that this “unalterable” position, constantly “affirmed,” is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or reneged—though never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in “continuing revelation.” Don’t expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with “the times.”

A further statement in the Handbook says: “The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156).” While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is God’s desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.

Your Mormon friend will offer the excuse that his church leaves many decisions to the free agency (free will) of its people, and that abortion is one such concern. You might point out the irony in the fact that the Mormon church has no hesitation or uncertainty in making the following declarations:

1. “The church opposes gambling in any form” (including lotteries). Members are also urged to oppose legislation and government sponsorship of any form of gambling (Handbook, 150).
2. The church also opposes [correctly, of course] pornography in any form (158).
3. Church members are to reject all efforts to legally authorize or support same-sex unions (158).

There is no need for a member to pray for divine guidance or seek church approval for such activities, for there will be no divine or ecclesiastical finessing of morality to permit even an occasional bingo game. A prayerful game of poker, unrepented, will bar the member from the temple and ultimate salvation; a prayerful, by-the-book abortion, unrepented, won’t.
catholic.com/tracts/mormon-stumpers

Thank you!! That is great to know!

 

[Imcatholic7]

Just the numbers, for people who hate reading footnotes:
Number of stakes 1999: 2542. 2009: 2865. Annual growth 1.2%
Number of districts 1999: 636. 2009: 616. Annual growth -0.33%
Missions 1999: 333. 2009: 344 Annual growth 0.3%.
Number of wards/branches 1999: 25,793. 2009: 28,424 Annual growth 0.98%
Total “official” membership 1999: 10,752,986. 2009: 13,824,854. Annual growth 2.5%.

of course, that is based on LDS reports. Those are not accurate. For example, my ex-wife and children are still listed on the official records, but all three left the Church. It is estimated that 30-50k people leave the LDS Church each year. So, your 2% frowth is nowhere near accurate.

Many people who left the LDS Church are still listed AND members who are in-active or who don’t practice/agree with the LDS church any longer and never had their names removed. I would like to see the chart " Active vs. Inactive Mormons"

 

[Imcatholic7]

I’m glad you see that it is not simple. We could of course argue this point about trying to hide bad doctrine. I do not believe the need to hide facts has made doctrine more complex. You have argued this point over and over in past posts so I don’t believe there is much point in arguing this with you now.

Callvenus made a plain assertion, “The scriptures call the Father, God, and they call the son, God, and they call the Holy Spirit, God. Period.” That statement is simply not true. To say such is to either have missed what the scriptures say or to ignore it. The scriptures in many points call Christ the Son of God. It is a very simple statement and obvious. The argument from the Catholic side must try to re-define what is meant by “Son of God”.

The truth of the mater is that the LDS church has grown by about 2% per year over the last ten years. Before that time the church in many years grew much faster. Here is a graph of church membership by year.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/LDSGrowth.png/800px-LDSGrowth.png
Now you can argue about details but the data is clear. The LDS church continues to grow decade by decade.

The fast growth of the LDS Church does not prove it is true. Members usually ALWAYS act like the fast growth means its true. Example: Jehovah’s Witnesses are growing VERY fast as well but that does not mean it is true.

 

[Janderich]

The fast growth of the LDS Church does not prove it is true. Members usually ALWAYS act like the fast growth means its true. Example: Jehovah’s Witnesses are growing VERY fast as well but that does not mean it is true.

Agreed. Neither fast growth, nor large numbers mean a church is true. I said this earlier in the discussion:

Truth is truth and it matters not what the world believes. I hope no one, including yourself, decides what is truth by trusting in numbers. What of the early saints after the crucifixion. Should they have been concerned about numbers? They were but few. I say to you and to anyone, discover truth for yourself and forget numbers. Truth cuts it’s own way.

 

[mtolympus]

no, it is moot. what “can” happen is not relevant. The Trinity IS…HAS BEEN and always will. Your question is irrelevant

Are you saying that three persons cannot be one God? Or are you saying that anything you don’t believe is moot?

If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?

LDS believe that all persons existed as intelligences which are co-eternal with God. I would change the phrase “substance of God” to “authority of God” to suit myself as you say. But it does give an explaination of how the Law of Eternal Progression can be monotheistic in the same way that the trinity is monotheistic.

 

[TexanKnight]

Are you saying that three persons cannot be one God? Or are you saying that anything you don’t believe is moot?

If three different persons can be one God, could 100 or 1,000,000 different persons be one God if they were co-eternal with God and had the substance of God?

LDS believe that all persons existed as intelligences which are co-eternal with God. I would change the phrase “substance of God” to “authority of God” to suit myself as you say. But it does give an explaination of how the Law of Eternal Progression can be monotheistic in the same way that the trinity is monotheistic.

Nice try. The LDS way of twisting and adding to make pojn ts is impressive. Pretty disingenuous, but impressive.

I am saying the Trinity IS. Questioning how many more could be included is moot because it IS. It is like trying to add to the law of gravity. Gravity IS. Anything else is moot.

And yes, you MUST believe in prgression when you believe your god was once a sinful man. We beloieve God, not man. God said He is the same before, now and forever. That is the main difference between us: We believe God…you b eleive a con-man who had a thing for the ladies.

I continue to pray for you

Be Blessed

 

[TexanKnight]

The fast growth of the LDS Church does not prove it is true. Members usually ALWAYS act like the fast growth means its true. Example: Jehovah’s Witnesses are growing VERY fast as well but that does not mean it is true.

Remember, LDS are the most gullible. And not just because they still follow Joseph, who was a known con-man. Utah, where the Mormons are huge percentage of the population, is also the state with the most multi-level marketing schemes.

From a news site:

“These schemes have proliferated in Utah to the point that the state holds a commanding lead over all other states in per capita sponsorship of multilevel marketing (MLM) programs, with pay plans that primarily reward recruitment of participants as customers and in which relatively few products are legitimately sold on a retail basis to end users. In fact, Utah County has the highest concentration of MLM schemes, with no county in the country holding even a close second place.”

If you look at missionary work and the missionary plan, it is run a LOT like a multi-level scheme. You get a Mormon and they invite friends over and you teach the friends. Then when you baptize them, you get THEIR friends and and so on and so on.

 

[mtolympus]

Here are figures that dispute the reported growth in the US. Notice the very last column on the right labeled “change”. You will see for the mormon church, 1990-2008 (18 yrs), change is 0. Not much of a growth there now is it?

Thank you for the interesting American Religious Survey Chart. I may have missed the point of this discussion, but it seems that lack of growth is a Christian problem and not only an LDS problem.

The survey indicates that from 54,000 surveyed in 1990 and 2008 that the LDS population was maintained at 1.4% of the population. The survey showed a 0% increase as a percentage of the total U S population. However, the U. S. population grew between 1990 and 2008, and therefore the population of the LDS Church in the U S also grew. If you take the increase in the U S population from 1990 to 2008 X 1.4 that will show the growth of the population of the LDS church according to the survey.

However, this survey considers only the U S population. The conversion rate for LDS is growing very fast in some places such as Africa.

The same survey that showed 0% increase in the LDS percentage of the U S population showed a -1.1% for Catholics, -3.5% for Baptists, -5.8% for mainline Protestants and a +6.8% for “no religion.” So what is the problem?

 

[Traditionalism]

What is with the spirit Children and things like natives being Israelites? I never get an answer from Mormons, only ex-Mormons tell me, and it always come out to be the same.

 

[TheExorcist]

What is with the spirit Children and things like natives being Israelites? I never get an answer from Mormons, only ex-Mormons tell me, and it always come out to be the same.

So are us Ex-Mormons not allowed to respond? Sometimes you can get the most honest answers out of Ex-Mormons, at least the ones who have resolved to be charitable. Sometimes if you get answers from TBMs you dont get as full and robust an answer as you are looking for. And it depends on the doctrinal bent of that particular active Mormon. Some adhere to the correlated plain vanilla version promulgated in the last 20 years or so. Others give you a full historical/doctrinal answer. So there are a lot of variables on what kind of answer you will get at any given time.

 

[TexanKnight]

Thank you for the interesting American Religious Survey Chart. I may have missed the point of this discussion, but it seems that lack of growth is a Christian problem and not only an LDS problem.

The survey indicates that from 54,000 surveyed in 1990 and 2008 that the LDS population was maintained at 1.4% of the population. The survey showed a 0% increase as a percentage of the total U S population. However, the U. S. population grew between 1990 and 2008, and therefore the population of the LDS Church in the U S also grew. If you take the increase in the U S population from 1990 to 2008 X 1.4 that will show the growth of the population of the LDS church according to the survey.

However, this survey considers only the U S population. The conversion rate for LDS is growing very fast in some places such as Africa.

The same survey that showed 0% increase in the LDS percentage of the U S population showed a -1.1% for Catholics, -3.5% for Baptists, -5.8% for mainline Protestants and a +6.8% for “no religion.” So what is the problem?

No other Church spends so much and sends out so many missionaries. So, you have no growth with thousands of missionaries, and the others lose a few with thousands less missionaries. Hmmmmmm

 

[Traditionalism]

So are us Ex-Mormons not allowed to respond? Sometimes you can get the most honest answers out of Ex-Mormons, at least the ones who have resolved to be charitable. Sometimes if you get answers from TBMs you dont get as full and robust an answer as you are looking for. And it depends on the doctrinal bent of that particular active Mormon. Some adhere to the correlated plain vanilla version promulgated in the last 20 years or so. Others give you a full historical/doctrinal answer. So there are a lot of variables on what kind of answer you will get at any given time.

Ohh, I support ex-Mormons answering, it’s just that I’ve gotten the same answer from them all on all my questions. I’d like an active Mormon to admit it, but so far it’s so secretive they won’t allow any answers.

 

[jrtrent]

The survey indicates that from 54,000 surveyed in 1990 and 2008 that the LDS population was maintained at 1.4% of the population. The survey showed a 0% increase as a percentage of the total U S population. However, the U. S. population grew between 1990 and 2008, and therefore the population of the LDS Church in the U S also grew.

There’s a report on the ARIS site that gives actual numbers. The LDS church claims membership in the USA in 1990 at 4,175,000, growing to 5,974,041 in 2008. The ARIS numbers, gathered with a nationwide telephone survey reaching 54,461 households in 2008 and 113,723 in 1990, estimated LDS membership to have grown from 2,487,000 to 3,158,000. The document explains that the ARIS numbers are lower overall due to their survey only including adults, whereas church membership records also include children. So, yes, I’d say that both sets of data indicate growth in membership.