MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[Porknpie]

Claiming a “fullness” is not the same thing as multiple gospels.

Better said that the Book of Mormon claims a “fullness” of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that the canon of the Bible is less.

So, was Joseph Smith a “prophet just like Moses” or not? And, how do you know that he was telling the truth?

 

[TexanKnight]

That’s an excellent point. I guess, at least in some ways, I draw the boundaries a little wider than you do. A church that accepts the Bible as scripture and endeavors to live by its precepts, a church that teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who suffered and died for our sins, who rose again and is the only hope for our salvation–I guess that’s Christian enough for me. I know that Mormons have faith in Christ, even if some of the things they teach about Christ is unorthodox. Oddly, I let seemingly more minor issues bother me more. For example, I can accept LDS or JW teaching about God and Christ as a heartfelt, honest attempt to understand the scriptures and live according to their teachings, but have a really hard time accepting as Christian those denominations that ordain women or condone homosexuality. Well, I’m still a work in progress . . .

Mormins believe in a man named Christ…not THE Christ. They believe in a god, not THE God. If you are comfortable with that, I applaud you

 

[jrtrent]

The purpose of this forum, so far as I can tell from the sticky threads, is to “explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents,” to the end that “respectful dialogue and discussion will lead to better faith understandings.” I don’t see how these objectives would be promoted by my constantly questioning their beliefs and labeling them as wrong, cultic, non-Christian, etc., etc. I’m just grateful when someone is willing to share their doctrine and something of its history.

This thread is a bit confusing since it was merged with another thread, but this one started out with a couple of questions:

How can you not believe in the Trinity when 1 John 5:7 is very clear that the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are ALL God?

Also, how can you believe in the Book of Mormon if the Bible says not to in Galatians 1:8-9?

When someone offers information in answer to those questions, I could see seeking further clarification if something still seems confusing, or perhaps saying, “That’s interesting; I come from a different set of theological presuppositions, and here’s how I see the issue.” However, too often someone’s response to a question seems to be used as fuel for leveling an attack on their faith.

Proselytizing is specifically ruled out for this forum, as is being “disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not.” I’m not always successful at this, but my goal here is to better understand other people’s religions, not pass judgement on them because their beliefs are not in accord with what I believe.

 

[TexanKnight]

The purpose of this forum, so far as I can tell from the sticky threads, is to “explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents,” to the end that “respectful dialogue and discussion will lead to better faith understandings.” I don’t see how these objectives would be promoted by my constantly questioning their beliefs and labeling them as wrong, cultic, non-Christian, etc., etc. I’m just grateful when someone is willing to share their doctrine and something of its history.

I do not question LDS beliefs…I KNOW them. So I know the errors. I know the false doctrine and false prophets. I have read more books than I can count both when I was LDS and after.

When someone offers information in answer to those questions, I could see seeking further clarification if something still seems confusing, or perhaps saying, “That’s interesting; I come from a different set of theological presuppositions, and here’s how I see the issue.” However, too often someone’s response to a question seems to be used as fuel for leveling an attack on their faith.

What you call attacks, we call correcting the misinformation Mormons provide. Too many Mormons give the answers of today’s LDS church that has tried desperately to become more mainstream and ignire and hide the horrible teachings of the LDS past. They are not really attacks. They are truth.

Be Blessed

.

 

[jrtrent]

I do not question LDS beliefs…I KNOW them. So I know the errors. I know the false doctrine and false prophets. I have read more books than I can count both when I was LDS and after.

What you call attacks, we call correcting the misinformation Mormons provide. Too many Mormons give the answers of today’s LDS church that has tried desperately to become more mainstream and ignire and hide the horrible teachings of the LDS past. They are not really attacks. They are truth.

The simple fact that you refer to their teachings as error and false doctrine, and their leaders, past or present, as false prophets, is inherently disrespectful. A Mormon who provides a current, factual report of Mormon teaching and practice is not giving “misinformation,” no matter what their church may have taught in the past, and no matter what someone of another faith might think of that teaching and practice or the church’s development of doctrine.

I am no longer Mormon because I came to a point of not believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the early Christian church fell into apostasy. I accept that God preserved the true faith through Apostolic succession and the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the decisions made in the ecumenical councils. I know people from several Christian denominations (and yes, I include LDS and JW’s among them, along with Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.) who find that position ludicrous, and they have their arguments drawn from both history and scripture, but that doesn’t keep us from having courteous, respectful discussions on issues of faith. We can challenge each other’s positions without bashing each other with labels or an “I’m right so you must be wrong” kind of attitude.

I appreciate the little I know of your background and current church affiliation, as well as your energy and diligence in several forum threads I’ve read, but, at least in the rather limited form of communication we have in an online forum, your responses sometimes seem harsh and accusatory rather than gracious and understanding. Speaking face-to-face over a cup of coffee (yes, I have descended to enjoying caffeinated beverages since my defection from the Mormon church) might prove a different experience.

 

[Callvenus]

Mormons, in their temple endowment, show a video with two persons discussing the creation of the world. Elohim and Jehovah. These are two separate and distinct Gods. God the son actually physically created the earth but he also was not alone in the creation. He was joined by the great and noble ones which included Adam and some LDS prophets and apostles speculate even faithful LDS. They believe in many Gods. They separate out Jehovah and Elohim when anyone who speaks any hebrew can tell you are one and the same. In fact there are segments where Elohim actually modifies Jehovah because Elohim means God and Jehovah is the actual name of God.

The truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is found in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Period. If you ask a Mormon why there was a great apostasy, they will say it is because men turned away from God and decided to corrupt the teachings. This argument is flawed though because if you ask them “What would happen if Joseph Smith decided to use his free agency and say no to God about restoring the Gospel?” most will answer, “then God would call someone who would not say no to restoring it”. This begs the questions, "Why would God not call men to be bishops that would not corrupt the teachings during the ecumenical councils. The answer is He wouldnt. He ensured his Church would always be doctrinally sound by giving the Bishop of Rome and the other Bishops of the early church the proper authority to do so. Mormons are just plain wrong.

I was a Mormon for 28 years and they do not rely on sound theology and doctrine to keep members and get new members. They rely on feelings that are subject to all sorts of things of this world including influence and temporal well-being. They lie to people and they are corrupt.

 

[Imcatholic7]

which is, of course, closely related to the doctrine that God used to be a man and subsequently became God, has a physical body, is married to at least one woman, and lives on a planet near the star Kolob.

Christians and Mormons may use the same words, but the meanings are vastly different. Any logical thinking person would conclude that words with different meanings don’t mean the same thing. Mormons aren’t Christian because their definitions of Christian words aren’t Christian.

And there’s the huge whole in their theology about the Holy Trinity. They distinctly believe in 3 separate Gods, so polytheism not monotheism.

 

[Imcatholic7]

Do Mormons believe that Jesus was married ,answer after you read journal od discourses ol 11 P269 and then give your answer

Some Church leaders taught so but the LDS Church takes a stance that it is up to the members to decide that for themselves. Same with contraception but they are against abortion…

 

[Imcatholic7]

I understand completely. That is why I believe we should try to explain our own beliefs rather than try to define the beliefs of someone of a different faith than our own.

Here is another one: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, but 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. These are clever ways to explain the three in one concept, but I prefer to find the explanation in the Bible.

If God the Father has a body of flesh and bone, then what is Jesus saying in John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”(KJV). Then, concerning Joseph Smith seeing God, please take into account Exodus 33:20"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."(KJV). And also John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”(KJV) I want to make it clear I am not trying to bash any religion here but only to declare the Truth. Please, take into account the Kinderhook plates. Supposedly “discovered” in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois and were made of brass with ancient (reformed??) Egyptian characters on them. Some men brought them to the Prophet Joseph Smith and Joseph TRANSLATED them. “I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.”(Taken from History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 372) The men ultimately came out and said they fabricated the plates to test the Prophet’s legitimacy. Worthy to translate the greatest working of God ever to be done? I think not. And the Book of Abraham is just another example. 2Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”(KJV) Joseph was killed by a mob at age 39 not even being able to fully lead his people to his Zion.

 

[Imcatholic7]

Different groups, all calling themselves Christian, have different understandings of several practices and terms used to describe their faith (grace, baptism, justification, predestination, even the nature of the Trinity is different depending on whether the filioque is inserted in the creed). Mormons may have greater deviations from what most would consider the norm, but that doesn’t make their use of the terms wrong and that of other denominations right.

I agree with this blurb from an article at the LDS website:

". . . if a special definition is created under which Christian means “only those who believe as I do,” then others might claim Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians—but all this would really mean is that while Mormons believe in Christ, we don’t believe exactly as they do. . . if the word Christian is given an overly narrow definition, then it is merely a way of saying LDS Christians differ in some degree from other Christians. No one “owns” the term Christian or has the right to deny it to others who worship Jesus as the divine Son of God. lds.org/new-era/1998/05/are-mormons-christians

2 Corinthians 11:4 “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” A Jesus that is not One with God.

 

[Imcatholic7]

Does this mean you believe in Person the Father, Person the Son and Person the Holy Ghost?

Three distinct persons but one God. The Father cannot be without the Son, Holy Spirit without Father and Son, etc. Think of a triangle. 3 distinct angles but without one it’s not a triangle. 1 triangle. It is the true, great mystery of God. It’s suppose to be confusing. If I’m wrong on Catholic teaching, please correct me

 

[Imcatholic7]

Mormon understanding of the nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost is different from the traditional, trinitarian view held by Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and most Protestants. However, their faith in Christ and his work isn’t very different from “Christian” beliefs, and I’m not so sure they aren’t Christians.

“Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.” lds.org/topics/jesus-christ?lang=eng

LDS doctrine states that the “atonement”(word is used A LOT by LDS leaders) took place in the Garden of Gethsemane not Christ’s death (“The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin”(CCC 601) Also "Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”(CCC 613))

 

[Imcatholic7]

“Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36-38; 76:28-33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31-33, 36-37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).”
lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng

I would like to clarify that the LDS Hell is not what we think of. It’s not the fiery pit, etc. but is actually a black hole. “The Creation,” page 146 and D&C 101:90-91 Here is a website containing very peculiar LDS teachings… i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm

 

[Callvenus]

Three distinct persons but one God. The Father cannot be without the Son, Holy Spirit without Father and Son, etc. Think of a triangle. 3 distinct angles but without one it’s not a triangle. 1 triangle. It is the true, great mystery of God. It’s suppose to be confusing. If I’m wrong on Catholic teaching, please correct me

To paraphrase CS Lewis, “If Christianity were made up by men, it would be simple”. Mormonism was made up by Joseph Smith and that is why it is more simple to understand. The fact remains that God states that there is one God and only one God. The scriptures call the Father, God, and they call the son, God, and they call the Holy Spirit, God. Period. You either believe what God said and what all Christians, Muslims, and Jews attest to or you dont. More than 70 percent of the worlds population believes in one God. Are they all wrong and 14 million Mormons right?

Also, Joe Smith did not start of with the Arian heresy at first. Early in his theological formation of Mormonism, he followed a trinitarian concept. I encourage everyone to go look at a replica of the 1830 book of mormon available at your local Deseret Book and see that all references in the Book of Mormon that now read “son of God”, originally said just “God”. In Nephi, for example, it used to see behold, the virgin you see before you is the Mother of God. It now reads behold, the virgin you see before you is the Mother of the SON of God. He morphed his theology to make it easier to convince people of his false religion. Joseph Smith was a conman and there is no doubt about that. It is historically proven fact.

 

[twopekinguys]

The simple fact that you refer to their teachings as error and false doctrine, and their leaders, past or present, as false prophets, is inherently disrespectful. A Mormon who provides a current, factual report of Mormon teaching and practice is not giving “misinformation,” no matter what their church may have taught in the past, and no matter what someone of another faith might think of that teaching and practice or the church’s development of doctrine.

I find this part of your post very interesting because it demonstrates some of the problems with mormonism.

You used the word “current”. That in itself is a problem, because mormon doctrine is very fluid, and constantly changing. God and his message never changes. God doesn’t make mistakes, and he doesn’t change his mind, so the word “current” is misleading at best.

This also means that as of today, they can teach message X, and totally ignore the fact that they originally taught message Y. Take blacks and the priesthood for example. Did you know there are many younger mormons who do not know that for a period of time blacks were denied the priesthood? When you ask them about it, you hear all of the usual, “that’s a lie”, “you’re just an anti”, etc. etc. So, again, at best, the word “current” is misleading.

It is also very misleading that they try to pass of the priesthood thing as a “revelation”, when it just happened to coincide with many colleges refusing to play BYU because of their racist policies, along with the IRS looking at changing their tax exempt status. I don’t believe God caves in to threats from the IRS.

Another example of being misleading is a recent conference speech where Boyd Packer made some rather hateful comments about homosexuals. Instead of the transcript of the speech being put into the church files as it was written, the church changed the transcript. After the fact mind you. Misleading wouldn’t you say?

Of course, with today’s technology, he is on record, on video making the original comments. How do you thing the mormons will solve that issue down the road? Are they going to mislead people into thinking the transcript in their records is the correct version? Are they going to try and say the video record was altered? Both are misleading.

I could go on and on about being misleading (let’s not even talk about the missionaries), but I think you get the idea.

 

[Janderich]

To paraphrase CS Lewis, “If Christianity were made up by men, it would be simple”. Mormonism was made up by Joseph Smith and that is why it is more simple to understand.

Really? You think Mormonism is simple? I would beg to differ. In fact it is far far from it. It stretches the mind to beyond current understanding. Let me give just one example of many. “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29). What is intelligence? If we were in the beginning, how then did we progress?

You may argue that it is not true, that it is false doctrine, but this is the first time I have heard someone say it is simple and becuase it is simple it is not true.

Callvenus:

The fact remains that God states that there is one God and only one God. The scriptures call the Father, God, and they call the son, God, and they call the Holy Spirit, God. Period. You either believe what God said and what all Christians, Muslims, and Jews attest to or you dont. More than 70 percent of the worlds population believes in one God. Are they all wrong and 14 million Mormons right?

You only wish the Bible we so clear, or you have not studied it well…

Matt 27:43 - He trusted in God: let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
John 5:25 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 9:35-37 - Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee
Matt 11: 27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

I think you need to reconsider.

Now, as to your numbers argument…Truth is truth and it matters not what the world believes. I hope no one, including yourself, decides what is truth by trusting in numbers. What of the early saints after the crucifixion. Should they have been concerned about numbers? They were but few. I say to you and to anyone, discover truth for yourself and forget numbers. Truth cuts it’s own way.

Callvenus:

Also, Joe Smith did not start of with the Arian heresy at first. Early in his theological formation of Mormonism, he followed a trinitarian concept. I encourage everyone to go look at a replica of the 1830 book of mormon available at your local Deseret Book and see that all references in the Book of Mormon that now read “son of God”, originally said just “God”. In Nephi, for example, it used to see behold, the virgin you see before you is the Mother of God. It now reads behold, the virgin you see before you is the Mother of the SON of God. He morphed his theology to make it easier to convince people of his false religion. Joseph Smith was a conman and there is no doubt about that. It is historically proven fact.

Take a look at this FAIR site for a good explanation of this issue en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Textual_changes/%22the_Son_of%22. At the end of the day there is really no contradiction for we acknowledge that that Christ, the Son, may be called God and God, the Father, may be called God at various times and places.

 

[TexanKnight]

Different groups, all calling themselves Christian, have different understandings of several practices and terms used to describe their faith (grace, baptism, justification, predestination, even the nature of the Trinity is different depending on whether the filioque is inserted in the creed). Mormons may have greater deviations from what most would consider the norm, but that doesn’t make their use of the terms wrong and that of other denominations right.

I agree with this blurb from an article at the LDS website:

". . . if a special definition is created under which Christian means “only those who believe as I do,” then others might claim Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians—but all this would really mean is that while Mormons believe in Christ, we don’t believe exactly as they do. . . if the word Christian is given an overly narrow definition, then it is merely a way of saying LDS Christians differ in some degree from other Christians. No one “owns” the term Christian or has the right to deny it to others who worship Jesus as the divine Son of God. lds.org/new-era/1998/05/are-mormons-christians

that is just wrong. If you believe in a different Christ, then you are not true Christians.

 

[TexanKnight]

The simple fact that you refer to their teachings as error and false doctrine, and their leaders, past or present, as false prophets, is inherently disrespectful.

Not true. If you came in claiming the sky is green with purple polka dots, and I said you are wrong, the sky is blue, I would not be disrespectful, I would be correcting error. That is all I do here. I try to stop the wool that was used to disguise the wolf from being pulled over peoples’ eyes.

A Mormon who provides a current, factual report of Mormon teaching and practice is not giving “misinformation,” no matter what their church may have taught in the past, and no matter what someone of another faith might think of that teaching and practice or the church’s development of doctrine.

Not true. A Mormon who tries to claim that the Church believes in ONE God is wrong when your prophets have declared differently. A person who tries to claim God is God is wrong when your prophets have taught Adam is God., etc etc. You are stuck with the boulders your past prophets have hung around your neck.

I am no longer Mormon because I came to a point of not believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the early Christian church fell into apostasy. I accept that God preserved the true faith through Apostolic succession and the guidance of the Holy Ghost in the decisions made in the ecumenical councils. I know people from several Christian denominations (and yes, I include LDS and JW’s among them, along with Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.) who find that position ludicrous, and they have their arguments drawn from both history and scripture, but that doesn’t keep us from having courteous, respectful discussions on issues of faith. We can challenge each other’s positions without bashing each other with labels or an “I’m right so you must be wrong” kind of attitude.

Sadly, that type of inclusiveness is not beneficial. If you are wrong, or teach false doctrine, you wiull be corrected or I will be guilty of agreement by acquiescense.

I appreciate the little I know of your background and current church affiliation, as well as your energy and diligence in several forum threads I’ve read, but, at least in the rather limited form of communication we have in an online forum, your responses sometimes seem harsh and accusatory rather than gracious and understanding. Speaking face-to-face over a cup of coffee (yes, I have descended to enjoying caffeinated beverages since my defection from the Mormon church) might prove a different experience.

One cannot know someone from online posts. It is too narrow a lens from which to view a person. It might surprise you that several of my best friends are LDS and we have debates all the time. I still watch General Conference each tme it is played, and I admire greatly the dedication and strength of the LDS people. I support Romney. But this is a Catholic Board, and many people are very impressionable. LDS sounds really good on the surface. I know. I fell for it. I served a mission for it. So, it is up to us who know the truth to correct how good it sounds TODAY with no regard for the true teachings of ALL the LDS leaders.

Be Blessed

 

[TexanKnight]

Really? You think Mormonism is simple? I would beg to differ. In fact it is far far from it.

I agree. But what makes it NOT simple is all the changes in doctrine and attempts to hide the past and cover up the bad and horrible doctrines. Otherwise, it would be VERY simple.

You only wish the Bible we so clear, or you have not studied it well…

Just because someone might understand it better than you they have not studied it well? That is an odd comment.

Now, as to your numbers argument…Truth is truth and it matters not what the world believes. I hope no one, including yourself, decides what is truth by trusting in numbers. What of the early saints after the crucifixion. Should they have been concerned about numbers? They were but few. I say to you and to anyone, discover truth for yourself and forget numbers. Truth cuts it’s own way.

The number that should alarm you is the huge numbers of Mormons leaveing the LDS Church as the discover more and more about LDS History.

.

 

[Porknpie]

that is just wrong. If you believe in a different Christ, then you are not true Christians.

The related question is and was for Mormons, “how do you know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, like unto Moses?”