MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[Imcatholic7]

What’s the ideas on the “spirit children”?

LDS teaching is that we have a Spirit Father (God) and a Spirit Mother (she’s not talked about much) and we are all literally created through them and are literal spirit children of God. Hence, the man-becoming god doctrine comes as being heirs to God’s throne but on a different planet.

Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. There was a council held to decide who would be the savior of the world. Jesus said he would do it and let everyone have free agency to choose between good or evil. Satan wanted to force everyone to go back to God. Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven to the earth, him and his followers never being able to receive mortal bodies.

A very unique doctrine is that God had to come down from heaven (he has a body of flesh and bone) and literally conceive Jesus with Mary.“The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115). “I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51)

The LDS Church will refute the quotes of Brigham Young saying they aren’t the official doctrine of the Church, yet he is held as a Prophet who communicates with God and said himself

“I have never given council that is wrong.”(Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161) website containing Brigham Young quotes brighamyoungquotes.com/

 

[Janderich]

What’s the ideas on the “spirit children”?

We believe that everyone on this earth is a spirit child of our Heavenly Father. As Paul confirmed, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have sad, For we are also his offspring. Foreasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device” (Acts 17:28-29). We believe that before this earth we lived and grew as spirits for a very long time. At some point we reached a stage where we needed a body to continue to progress. We believe that life on earth presents one of our greatest opportunities and challenges, to gain a body. When we die our spirit and body will be separated and we will anxiously await the day of our resurrection when the spirit and body will again be reunited but this time our body will be free from flaws.

 

[Traditionalism]

We believe that everyone on this earth is a spirit child of our Heavenly Father. As Paul confirmed, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have sad, For we are also his offspring. Foreasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device” (Acts 17:28-29). We believe that before this earth we lived and grew as spirits for a very long time. At some point we reached a stage where we needed a body to continue to progress. We believe that life on earth presents one of our greatest opportunities and challenges, to gain a body. When we die our spirit and body will be separated and we will anxiously await the day of our resurrection when the spirit and body will again be reunited but this time our body will be free from flaws.

What about the planet of your own to rule over?

 

[mtolympus]

What about the planet of your own to rule over?

I have been going to church all my life and I have never been taught this in church. I only have read about “our own planet” in anti-Mormon literature which tends to distort our beliefs. We do believe that as spirit children of our Father in Heaven we can, along with our Brother Jesus Christ, inherit what our Father has:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

Whether this means I get my own planet or not, I don’t know. And, I really don’t care.

 

[Callvenus]

Well, I have been to church for 28 years and I can assure you that the idea of populating and creating planets is definitely taught in church. They are taught that we will be with God but also be like God meaning that we will be gods to our posterity. This doctrine of eternal progression is clearly taught and is not just found in “anti-Mormon” literature. Its the problem of having an eternal regression of gods that I brought up earlier in the forum. We are progressing to the status of god, according to Mormon doctrine, and God, himself, is still progressing to another status which is not made quite clear according to LDS beliefs. What is clear is that they believe God is incomplete and in need of further progression.

I have been going to church all my life and I have never been taught this in church. I only have read about “our own planet” in anti-Mormon literature which tends to distort our beliefs. We do believe that as spirit children of our Father in Heaven we can, along with our Brother Jesus Christ, inherit what our Father has:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

Whether this means I get my own planet or not, I don’t know. And, I really don’t care.

 

[Traditionalism]

Well, I have been to church for 28 years and I can assure you that the idea of populating and creating planets is definitely taught in church. They are taught that we will be with God but also be like God meaning that we will be gods to our posterity. This doctrine of eternal progression is clearly taught and is not just found in “anti-Mormon” literature. Its the problem of having an eternal regression of gods that I brought up earlier in the forum. We are progressing to the status of god, according to Mormon doctrine, and God, himself, is still progressing to another status which is not made quite clear according to LDS beliefs. What is clear is that they believe God is incomplete and in need of further progression.

This is exactly what I mean when LDS people lie and such. I’ve heard that from EVERYONE, minus practicing Mormons, even people are still religious but don’t go to the church anymore just because they didn’t feel like going anymore.

 

[Janderich]

What about the planet of your own to rule over?

We focus much more on improving our weaknesses, repentance, charity, etc. In fact someone could go to church for years, even decades, and never hear a word about creating planets to rule over. Non-LDS websites and boards focus on it much more than we ever do. We are more concerned about here and now.

That being said, a number of months ago Rebecca did find a manual for college age students that does comment on it. Here is what it says:

“‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods’” (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).

Such quotes are marvelous to me, but others simply try and tear them down.

This may be why you see a disconnect in what LDS members say and what non-members say. To me when non-members trumpet such teaching as standard it distorts who we are. We do not think we are better than others because of such teaching. In fact all are entitled to the same blessings, even those who knew nothing about it in this life may receive the gospel in the next and all the promises of exaltation.

 

[Callvenus]

Just because they are not focused on as much as other topics are focused on does not mean it is not part of your theology. The focus in the LDS Church is about 1.) doing things on your own and perfecting yourself on your own 2.) it is about things of this world such as impressive numbers, missionaries, money, and temples.

I went to sacrament meeting for over a year with a journal and counted the number of times Jesus Christ was mentioned as compared to Joseph Smith or temples or tithing and I guarantee that Jesus takes a back seat to any of these topics because he is not central to the religion. I dont care if his name is in the name of the church because that does not make someone a Christian. If someone comes along and says that they believe in a green space alien named Jesus Christ, he wouldnt be considered a Christian.

The LDS believe that Christ is a created being which means he can not be the creator of ALL things. They do not believe he is GOD incarnate but just A god incarnate.

I know the tricks that the LDS use to sucker people in and that is exactly what they try to do on this forum by downplaying the topics that are controversial and playing up the topics that are more universal. They call this method “milk before meat” which means they will not reveal heavier doctrine until you have somewhat of a commitment to the church. I used these tricks when I was a missionary and to my shame, I convinced lots of people and I hope God forgives me for that one day. We, as missionaries, were deliberately dishonest and deliberately not forth-coming with some of the doctrines. And yes, while getting your own world(s) to populate is not one of those topics discussed weekly at church, it does come up in the church. period.

that is the doctrine.

We focus much more on improving our weaknesses, repentance, charity, etc. In fact someone could go to church for years, even decades, and never hear a word about creating planets to rule over. Non-LDS websites and boards focus on it much more than we ever do. We are more concerned about here and now.

That being said, a number of months ago Rebecca did find a manual for college age students that does comment on it. Here is what it says: Such quotes are marvelous to me, but others simply try and tear them down.

This may be why you see a disconnect in what LDS members say and what non-members say. To me when non-members trumpet such teaching as standard it distorts who we are. We do not think we are better than others because of such teaching. In fact all are entitled to the same blessings, even those who knew nothing about it in this life may receive the gospel in the next and all the promises of exaltation.

 

[Callvenus]

Also, I guarantee you Mormons do think they are better than most other people. Not all, but a lot of them do. What they dont tell you is that even though you can accept the Mormon gospel in the next life, that acceptance is not solidified until temple work is done on your behalf by a worthy mormon. Your salvation is linked to these people. You can not enter into spirit paradise until you have had a Mormon here on earth do your baptism for you. Or, the other option is that you can wait until the millennium and do your own temple work which leaves you in spirit prison until the second coming.

The mormon God is not a sovereign God. He can not just look at you and say your heart is sufficient and enter you in what the Catechism of the Catholic Church calls a baptism of desire. The Mormon God has to have one of his people on earth go to a temple in Sacramento or SLC or Las Vegas to do this ritual as a formality in order for you to receive the blessings.

When I was in the LDS Church, I often thought of the story about the Pharisee and the Scribe and every testimony meeting, Mormons were all too often the Pharisee.

There is a lot of “thank you for not making us as these people are” attitudes in the LDS Church.

We focus much more on improving our weaknesses, repentance, charity, etc. In fact someone could go to church for years, even decades, and never hear a word about creating planets to rule over. Non-LDS websites and boards focus on it much more than we ever do. We are more concerned about here and now.

That being said, a number of months ago Rebecca did find a manual for college age students that does comment on it. Here is what it says: Such quotes are marvelous to me, but others simply try and tear them down.

This may be why you see a disconnect in what LDS members say and what non-members say. To me when non-members trumpet such teaching as standard it distorts who we are. We do not think we are better than others because of such teaching. In fact all are entitled to the same blessings, even those who knew nothing about it in this life may receive the gospel in the next and all the promises of exaltation.

 

[mtolympus]

Well, I have been to church for 28 years and I can assure you that the idea of populating and creating planets is definitely taught in church. They are taught that we will be with God but also be like God meaning that we will be gods to our posterity. This doctrine of eternal progression is clearly taught and is not just found in “anti-Mormon” literature. Its the problem of having an eternal regression of gods that I brought up earlier in the forum. We are progressing to the status of god, according to Mormon doctrine, and God, himself, is still progressing to another status which is not made quite clear according to LDS beliefs. What is clear is that they believe God is incomplete and in need of further progression.

I didn’t say we didn’t believe in the Law of Eternal progression. I have written about this on this tread. I was saying that anti-Mormon literature exagerates our emphasis on this doctrine and tries to make it sound foolish. I have never heard it taught in church that I would have my own planet. Yet, from reading anti-Mormon literature you would think that I go to church every Sunday to hear how exciting it will be to get my own planet and how much fun it will be populating it.

Our teachings about our reward in heaven is focused on returning to the live in presence of our Heavenly Father and being with our family for eternity. And yes, that we can be like Him:

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

If you want me to repeat what I wrote about the Law of Eternal Progression on this tread please let me know.

 

[mtolympus]

This is exactly what I mean when LDS people lie and such. I’ve heard that from EVERYONE, minus practicing Mormons, even people are still religious but don’t go to the church anymore just because they didn’t feel like going anymore.

You asked a specific question: “What about the planet of your own to rule over?”

When you ask an LDS to give their point of view, please don’t call them a liar when they do.

 

[Porknpie]

I have been going to church all my life and I have never been taught this in church. I only have read about “our own planet” in anti-Mormon literature which tends to distort our beliefs. We do believe that as spirit children of our Father in Heaven we can, along with our Brother Jesus Christ, inherit what our Father has:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

**Whether this means I get my own planet or not, I don’t know. And, I really don’t care./**QUOTE]

MTOlympus - is progression leading to having your own planet part of your church theology or not? It’s a Yes or No question. I’m not Mormon so I can not answer this definitely. Whether your church “emphasizes” it or not is not relevant.

If yes, and the church is not teaching you the theology, why not?

If yes and you still “don’t really care” why not?

There are two extremes here: either the theology is false and it opens up a lot of other questions … OR it is true and if so, I would want to know about it as it speaks to what happens to me as part of my salvation. If yes and it is a more completely revealed Gospel of Jesus, I would want to tell everyone about it.

 

[mtolympus]

MTOlympus - is progression leading to having your own planet part of your church theology or not? It’s a Yes or No question. I’m not Mormon so I can not answer this definitely. Whether your church “emphasizes” it or not is not relevant.

Show me where it says that I will have my own planet in our Scriptures and I will coment on it.

If yes, and the church is not teaching you the theology, why not?

We teach the doctrine found in the scriptures and leave the rest to those who like to speculate.

If yes and you still “don’t really care” why not?

It is more important to learn to follow the Savior that though His grace I may return to the presence of God.

“There are two extremes here: either the theology is false and it opens up a lot of other questions … OR it is true and if so, I would want to know about it as it speaks to what happens to me as part of my salvation. If yes and it is a more completely revealed Gospel of Jesus, I would want to tell everyone about it.”

No one has addressed the scripture from the Bible that I quoted to support our beliefs. Unless you accept this as true you will not accept anything I say.

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

 

[Callvenus]

Milk before meat. No mormon is commenting on the fact that missionaries and even members are explicitly told to stay away from controversial doctrines and teachings around any investigators of the church. No mormon in here is commenting on the fact that missionaries are deliberately told by most of their mission presidents to avoid these topics. I have brought up so many points in this thread about Mormon theology and the response from the LDS on this page have been to distract and not address anything controversial I brought up. My exit from the church came not from reading “anti-Mormon” literature or because I couldnt handle the rules. My exit, like so many others that I have met in Utah and elsewhere, came from reading official church publications and official scripture. There are plenty of contradictory things to be found in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price is a very easy source to turn to when considering the falsehoods of Mormonism.

The bottom line is that Mormonism is not Christian because it believes Christ is just another created being and just another god among an infinite number of gods that exist throughout the eternities. It is not Christian because it teaches that Christ was Jehovah and the Father was Elohim when all Christian and Jewish scholars attest to the fact that they are one and the same. It is not Christian because it follows the pattern of Jehovahs Witnesses and Islam by saying that Christ was not the God of the universe but merely a subordinate. The truth lies in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church because it has a historical lineage back to Christ and has always remained theologically (albeit not always culturally) sound.

If man can frustrate the works of God like the LDS claim, then He really is not a very powerful deity and definitely not omniscient. No LDS in this thread addressed my earlier question about the great apostasy. If God asked Joseph Smith to restore the gospel and Joseph Smith used his free agency and said no, many LDS believe that God would simply call another who would say yes and restore the gospel while many others believe that he called Joseph Smith because He knew that Joseph would not say no. This begs the simple question of why God would not just call men in the early church to be bishops that also would not “reject the true teachings” and not remove “plain and precious truths” as they like to say. Why would he not want His church to grow and fill the entire earth for 1800 years before restoring. The simple answer is that He allowed the Catholic Church to grow and bless the lives of billions by calling men that were filled with the Holy Spirit. He kept His Church from ever falling into doctrinal error of any kind and He has ensured its survival.

The Mormon Church is not only wrong but it causes a lot of harm to families and decent people. It has had ripple effects on my family throughout the years. At one point during my long departure from church (still not completely official), I found myself saying that I had to force myself to believe in the flawed theology of the LDS church to ensure that my family would not suffer. I had to force myself to mold the LDS beliefs into my life because the consequences of me accepting the truth of the real gospel of Jesus Christ would harm people I care about deeply.

When I brought up my concerns with my bishop, he very “lovingly” told me that he would advise my family to never speak with me again so that their testimony will not be weakened. Luckily, the Lord allowed them to see the truth of Mormonism and come to know our GOD, Jesus Christ.

This past Easter Vigil, I was baptized (Sorry I havent updated my religious status yet ) . I knew that I was finally coming home to be one with my Redeemer and I knew that I was in His presence in the Holy Eucharist.

mtolympus;9707496:

I have been going to church all my life and I have never been taught this in church. I only have read about “our own planet” in anti-Mormon literature which tends to distort our beliefs. We do believe that as spirit children of our Father in Heaven we can, along with our Brother Jesus Christ, inherit what our Father has:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

Whether this means I get my own planet or not, I don’t know. And, I really don’t care./

QUOTE]

MTOlympus - is progression leading to having your own planet part of your church theology or not? It’s a Yes or No question. I’m not Mormon so I can not answer this definitely. Whether your church “emphasizes” it or not is not relevant.

If yes, and the church is not teaching you the theology, why not?

If yes and you still “don’t really care” why not?

There are two extremes here: either the theology is false and it opens up a lot of other questions … OR it is true and if so, I would want to know about it as it speaks to what happens to me as part of my salvation. If yes and it is a more completely revealed Gospel of Jesus, I would want to tell everyone about it.

 

[Porknpie]

Milk before meat. No mormon is commenting on the fact that missionaries and even members are explicitly told to stay away from controversial doctrines and teachings around any investigators of the church. No mormon in here is commenting on the fact that missionaries are deliberately told by most of their mission presidents to avoid these topics. I have brought up so many points in this thread about Mormon theology and the response from the LDS on this page have been to distract and not address anything controversial I brought up. My exit from the church came not from reading “anti-Mormon” literature or because I couldnt handle the rules. My exit, like so many others that I have met in Utah and elsewhere, came from reading official church publications and official scripture. There are plenty of contradictory things to be found in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price is a very easy source to turn to when considering the falsehoods of Mormonism.

The bottom line is that Mormonism is not Christian because it believes Christ is just another created being and just another god among an infinite number of gods that exist throughout the eternities. It is not Christian because it teaches that Christ was Jehovah and the Father was Elohim when all Christian and Jewish scholars attest to the fact that they are one and the same. It is not Christian because it follows the pattern of Jehovahs Witnesses and Islam by saying that Christ was not the God of the universe but merely a subordinate. The truth lies in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church because it has a historical lineage back to Christ and has always remained theologically (albeit not always culturally) sound.

 

[Callvenus]

Callvenus -

 

[mtolympus]

Milk before meat. No mormon is commenting on the fact that missionaries and even members are explicitly told to stay away from controversial doctrines and teachings around any investigators of the church. No mormon in here is commenting on the fact that missionaries are deliberately told by most of their mission presidents to avoid these topics.

Why do you consider speculation the “meat” of our doctrine? The missionaries and the members are told to teach from the scriptures.

 

[Callvenus]

Why do you consider speculation the “meat” of our doctrine? The missionaries and the members are told to teach from the scriptures.

I served in an area with a high Christian population and my mission president told me to avoid these topics and change the subject. I get this a lot from members but they discount the fact that many of us ex-mormons on here have been around the church for quite some time. There are topics that are explicitly not discussed with investigators and that directive usually comes from somewhere near the top. Mission presidents, stake presidents, bishops, institute teachers, etc etc etc. They recognize that certain things will not fly with people. All you have to do to look at the whole milk before meat thing is view the movie at the visitor center about Joseph Smith. It shows Joseph and Emma as this happily married couple. It does not show the doctrine of plural marriage or the fact that Emma ended up leaving the Church. Section 132 of the D&C clearly states that plural marriage is a divine structure yet the LDS missionaries will not show you that when they show you the 20 minute DVD called the Restoration. They will divert to another topic and change the subject. I was a missionary and I have tons of friends that served missions and have since left the church and they will attest to the whole milk before meat concept. Maybe not using those exact terms but I think if we are all to be honest, it is clear that the LDS do not disclose all their doctrine.

 

[Callvenus]

Also, ever since Preach My Gospel came out, the church has made sure that they control every word the missionaries tell you. Missionaries are even told at what point to bear a testimony.

I served in an area with a high Christian population and my mission president told me to avoid these topics and change the subject. I get this a lot from members but they discount the fact that many of us ex-mormons on here have been around the church for quite some time. There are topics that are explicitly not discussed with investigators and that directive usually comes from somewhere near the top. Mission presidents, stake presidents, bishops, institute teachers, etc etc etc. They recognize that certain things will not fly with people. All you have to do to look at the whole milk before meat thing is view the movie at the visitor center about Joseph Smith. It shows Joseph and Emma as this happily married couple. It does not show the doctrine of plural marriage or the fact that Emma ended up leaving the Church. Section 132 of the D&C clearly states that plural marriage is a divine structure yet the LDS missionaries will not show you that when they show you the 20 minute DVD called the Restoration. They will divert to another topic and change the subject. I was a missionary and I have tons of friends that served missions and have since left the church and they will attest to the whole milk before meat concept. Maybe not using those exact terms but I think if we are all to be honest, it is clear that the LDS do not disclose all their doctrine.

 

[TexanKnight]

Also, ever since Preach My Gospel came out, the church has made sure that they control every word the missionaries tell you. Missionaries are even told at what point to bear a testimony.

I served in 1984-1986. We were told everything to do and when to give testimony back then, too. We had to memorize our discussions.