MERGED: What exactly IS Charismatic Catholicism?/Baptism in the Spirit?

[Julia_Mae]

Most responses here more or less ignored the original question: what about Steubenville, World Youth Day, and contemporary praise music? Is all of that primary Charismatic?

no

wait

what’s Steubenville besides a place in Ohio?

I might have to qualify

 

[Colorad007]

no

wait

what’s Steubenville besides a place in Ohio?

I might have to qualify

Steubenville is the evidently orthodox Franciscan University and it’s myriad conferences held across the country for youth. In my archdiocese, for example, it’s a huge deal.

 

[Heuchler]

Most responses here more or less ignored the original question: what about Steubenville, World Youth Day, and contemporary praise music? Is all of that primary Charismatic?

I’ve been to one steubenville retreat and it is very charismatic. It featured baptist altar calls each night along with adoration. The first night in adoration though there was a man who yelled out in a voice of anguish “forgive me God, FORGIVE ME!” and right on cue someone received the gift of laughter making it seem like they were laughing at him. This incessant laughter carried on throughout the time making it hard to concentrate and was very distracting. Way too chaotic and contradictory to seem to have been provoked by the Holy Spirit.

I haven’t been to world youth day and really have no opinion on it.

Contemporary praise music is ok. A lot of it is bland but to each his own. I would say these retreats utilize the music though to create an adrenaline rush which helps cause a lot of the charisms which we have never heard of (the emotional stuff like being slain in the spirit, the gift of laughter, crying, etc.). This was exactly what they did at Steubenville during the adoration which was filled with loud crescendoing music which fits in perfectly with the need for something to work people up to do this.

 

[lzdesert]

Hay, PO18guy… I thought when we received the Sacrament of Confirmation, we are baptized or receive the Holy Spirit. No??? Thanks for your help…

 

[Bookcat]

The “Baptism in the Spirit” is not a Sacrament…but can be related to Baptism and Conformation…bringing one to live them in a more vivid way etc.

It can also be seen as another sending of the Holy Spirit …and can include the giving of particular charisms…(there can be many sendings of the Holy Spirit in ones life…(though he does not cease to dwell within you if one is in a state of grace!..there is some mystery here involved) not just the two major ones noted above). (I am not keen on the this term however…but it is the one that caught on …so it stuck in many places)

It is associated largely with the Charismatic movement.

There can be various theological reflections or opinions on this. I am not a part per se of the Charismatic Movement but these are my thoughts ( I tend to think it is a bit of both…)

 

[SanAgustin]

Clapping and signing is not “Charismatic”, just go to most Spanish masses in the US (or in Latin America for that matter).

There’s a “gift of crying now”? St. Augustine, pray for us!

 

[Hmgbrd]

I think that this thread is beginning to give me the “Gift of Laughing”!

ROFL!!!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Steubenville is the evidently orthodox Franciscan University and it’s myriad conferences held across the country for youth. In my archdiocese, for example, it’s a huge deal.

Aren’t you in the Archdiocese of Denver? We never had these at my Parish in Aurora. When did this get to be a huge deal?

 

[WetCatechumen]

…

I was raised Pentecostal. I’ve no desire to return to it under a different name

 

[guanophore]

I call it special effects Catholicism.

Without trying to insult anybody, it really is more of a Pentecostal movement for people who don’t want to leave the Catholic Church. I’m quite familiar with it, and at one time I really thought I was being bad for criticizing it, but my main problem with it is that it shares many of the flaws of Pentecostalism; making people believe that they don’t have “enough faith” if they don’t speak in tongues.

This concept is, indeed, a heresy, and is not part of the catholic Charismatic Renewal. It is not taught in any of the Church documents regarding the gifts of the Spirit, or by any of the literature used in the Renewal. It is a contamination that has slipped in from Pentecostalism, and should be strongly rejected.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve heard that certain groups of Protestants practice a ritual where people lay their hands on a person and ‘baptize’ (?) him in the Holy Spirit, after which the person supposedly starts talking in ‘tongues’. What do Catholics think of this? And is there anything similar that Charismatic Catholics do?

It is not a 'ritual". We are encouraged to pray for one another, and expect God to work through our prayers. Sometimes a person receives a healing, sometimes they receive Gifts from the Holy Spirit.

It is no different than the stronly encouraged practice of parents making the sign of the cross on the foreheads of their children, and blessing them as they leave the house.

 

[guanophore]

FYI: 99.99999999% of the time, “speaking in tongues” is a giant sham. There’s no other way to say it.

speaking in tongues is where everyone can understand you. duh.

Such a position is inconsistent with the New Testament record, and the Teaching of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

I'm sorry but speaking in tongues is of the devil.  Plain and simple.

Yes, you should be sorry for such a position, as it is contrary to Catholic faith and teaching.

Although it is true that tongues can be of demonic origin, that does not negate the Gift of the Holy Spirit that manifest in this way.

My ex girlfriends family went to an assembly of god church that worshipped like that. And a lady sitting three rows in front of me in the mega church reminiscent of Joel Osteen’s hysteria, starting convulsing and speaking in tongues. I thought she was having a seizure at first and admit was terrified. But then when everyone around her started getting hysterical I realized it was part of the show. This really bothered me.

Yes, sometimes demons do manifest themselves in this manner, and in these settings.

I felt like I had offended God by being present at this “service”.

It is recommended that Catholics not attend services of this kind.

They claimed it was God speaking through them. I’m sorry. If God wants to physically and literally speak through someone then he could do so with no effort and have them speak fluently.

You should be sorry, indeed, for rejecting the gifts of God because they are misused by persons who are not subject to Apostolic Authority. This amounts to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

If a demonic entity is trying to force entry onto somebody that their soul is fighting back and their entire being is convulsing and speaking nonsense trying to reject it, as is natural for those imbued with the Holy Spirit, than this is what makes sense.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, here, but certainly we should all resist the devil on a daily basis. It is also true that demonic forces produce yelling, convulsions, and confusion.

Speaking in tongues should be discouraged.

Then you are acting in contradiciton to the Holy Scripture.

I liken it to playing with ouji boards. You’re asking for trouble by partaking in such unholy things.

I agree that partaking of unholy things is asking for trouble, but the Gifts of God are Holy.

 

[guanophore]

In my opinion (and I believe if you look at it you’ll realize it too), that this like altar calls, are just a protestant replacement of the sacraments. It is their way of affirming that they are christians and their way of being closer to God by being. If it were true it would seem to downplay the importance of baptism and confirmation because baptism in the spirit seems to cause a physical effect. Why isn’t this a sacrament if it is so important and life altering? Why has it only appeared in recent years, instead of throughout history. Really, I wish that when Catholics do turn to the Holy Spirit that they would stop looking to protestants and pentacostals to lead them there.

Yes, Protestants have had to find replacements for the Sacraments, and of course, there really is no such thing. They make do with what they have, however deficient it may be. They should be commenended for wanting more of God, but a real altar call is one that brings a believer to the Mass.

A true Charismatic Renewal for Catholics authenticates and enhances the sacramental life, especially baptism and confirmation. A person will grow in living out the graces that were conveyed during the sacrament.

It is a “new” movement, because the Holy Father asked for a “new” thing, “like unto Pentecost”. We need to look to the Magesterial teaching on this, rather than to Protestant ecclesial communities.

 

[guanophore]

There’s also the gift of prophesy, which is more problematic.

I was at a Charismatic prayer group, and one lady stood up at the end and said “The Lord is telling me that we all must kneel right now”. Really? Imagine what a gift, she has direct literal communication with God, and we just have to accept it

On the contrary, the Church teaches that the faithful need not accept any private revelation, including those of the Saints and doctors of the Church (some of whom spoke in tongues, by the way)…

My friend later suggested we should have responsed, "Well no, the Lord told ME to stay standing up" to see what happened. He also proposed a game were we would say; "The Lord said sit, the Lord said stand, kneel ... gotcha I didn't say 'The Lord said'". :p

This would be very inappropriate. If you are suspicious, you should leave the meeting.

 

[vardaquinn]

From the United States Bishops catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html :

In the Sacraments of Initiation we experience the action of the Triune God. As regards the Third Person of the Trinity, in Baptism we become temples of the Holy Spirit; in Eucharist we share in the Body and Blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit; in Confirmation we are empowered with the gifts and charisms of the Spirit to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. In this statement, we want not only to affirm the good fruit of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but also the grace which is at the heart of this Renewal, namely, baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the fuller release of the Holy Spirit, as some would prefer.

As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.

 

[bcuster]

**First: Please do not focus on tongues to the exclusion of all of the other Charisms of the Holy Spirit - this is a canard that derails a thread. **

The movement has been examined, tested and approved by the Church over the past decades - all the way up to John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher of the Papal household, is a charismatic Priest.

Thank you for saying this so clearly. Every confirmed Catholic ought to be “charismatic” even if they do not participate in Charismatic Masses, pray in tongues, or lay hands on people when they pray. The Charisms of the Holy Spirit are the patrimony of the faith–nothing Protestant about them. There are those who, without the proper spiritual direction, go out of bounds and may open themselves up to other spirits; however, this should not be used to criticize those who legitimately disciple the Holy Spirit.

 

[Julia_Mae]

A true Charismatic Renewal for Catholics authenticates and enhances the sacramental life, especially baptism and confirmation. A person will grow in living out the graces that were conveyed during the sacrament…

A sparkle of light in a sea of darkness.

 

[guanophore]

And its really evident that its all based on emotions because they copied the "gifts" created by the protestants like laughter and crying. That was unheard of until charismatic forms of christianity came along.

Clearly you have not read much of Catholic mystics.

And I have been to a charismatic retreat and I couldn’t feel God working there.

Have you considered that this says more about you than the retreat? If you are so high on not going by emotions, how is it that you base your own judgement upon you “feeling”?

The first night a guy yelled out in a voice of anguish “Forgive me God, forgive me!” and right on cue “the gift” of laughter came as if it was mocking this misguided man. God wouldn’t create such chaos as to leave that man with such anguish and have the cackling burst out as he yelled this. It doesn’t reflect His love

Sounds a little bizarre.

 

[SanAgustin]

Once again; the gift of crying?

St. Augustine, pray for us.