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guanophore
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Will your look over Acts. 10 and tell me, at what point did this occur for Cornelius?
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fhansen
Guest
I think in 1Cor3 Paul was speaking in general terms, about a principle. Apparently different levels of justice are achieved in this life resulting in different levels of glory or esteem in the next life. He wasn’t implying that he knew the eternal fate of each and every person addressed by his letter, as if he could say that any particular person, whether doing good works or worthless ones, would definitely be saved. He couldn’t even say that about himself, according to Phil 3:7-14
He was only saying that it’s possible for a person to do good works, born from faith expressing itself in love, or do worthless works, presumably born from less noble reasons, from all the other things that motivate us: pride and desire for some gain or benefit. The latter reasons don’t outrightly disqualify us from heaven; it simply means we’re still attached to lesser things than the ultimate Good above all else, which means that verse 15 may be an allusion to the need for purification in purgatory. *In any case based on their overall responses to Gods grace, the person would be deemed to have merited eternal life, although only by a narrow margin apparently.
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Vinny213
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So Corinthians was not saying that everyone that is reborn into Christ will not be judged by God no matter how they behave or act in this life? Plus we can never strictly merit eternal life since our works can never equal it.
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guanophore
Guest
I would say even further, every human soul will be judged, whether they have been reborn into Christ, or not.
“Merit” means to be “worthy”, and thus we all must strictly become worthy of eternal life. The purpose of God’s grace is to create this worthiness in us, so that we are fit for the Kingdom of heaven.
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, 12 training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. 14 He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
His grace trains us to renounce impiety and worldy passions, and to live lives that 'merit" ,or are worthy, of His Kingdom.
We must be holy, as He is Holy, strictly speaking.
Rev 21:27
27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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brb3
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Will look up tonite, but I think I know where ur going here.
I will stipulate that our actions leading up to and including First Confession are Meritorious, and could indeed be seen so by God as a Good Work(s).
In point of fact … the hardest decision/ mental WORK ( if you will) I ever made, was making First Confession & telling Christ I desired to be Reborn and become His disciple. Satan was using every trick he knew to prevent my praying the Sinner’s Prayer & asking for grace unto Salvation.
Nevertheless, in hindsight, w/o God’s grace to overcome my doubts, I wouldn’t of stood up to satan and denied him, and chosen Christ. So, I’d have to admit, my short-term actions (work of confession) was meritorious …but, clearly enabled by GOD’s grace to me. His grace overcame my straw, and effected ‘gracious’ work of eternal value.
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Vinny213
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But merit is only based on God’s promise to reward not on some strict legal contract. You have misunderstood the catholic meaning of merit if you think it means anything in any strict sense. Also God can never be our debtor or under obligation to us outside of some convental promise or unless he has ordained that it shpuld be so. I suggest you look up the meaning of condign merit. Merit does not mean worthy in Catholic theology, I have not read one catholic book or cathecism that has described merit as worthiness and neither did Aquinas. Merit does not mean deserve or earn either. Here is what Jimmy Akin said about the subject of merit:
"Thus in Catholic theology, merit is in no way earning, but identical with the concept of reward. Brought about by God’s grace, acts which please God are done by Christians (Phil. 4:18, Col. 1:9-10, 1Th. 4:1, Heb. 13:16, 13:20-21) and God chooses to reward them (Rom. 2:6, 1 Cor. 3:8, 4:6, 2 Cor. 5:10, Gal. 6:6-10, Rev. 2:23, 22:12). These elements, God’s grace, the acts pleasing to God that they bring about, and the reward God chooses to give, are the key elements in the Catholic theology of merit, as we shall see.
The doctrine of merit is thus the same as the doctrine of rewards. To help Protestant readers grasp this and cut through the linguistic confusion experienced on this point because of the associations of the term “merit” in the Protestant vocabulary, they should try substituting “reward” or “rewardable action” or “to perform a rewardable action” for “merit” in what follows. This should cut through the confusion."
"Thus in Catholic theology, merit is in no way earning, but identical with the concept of reward. Brought about by God’s grace, acts which please God are done by Christians (Phil. 4:18, Col. 1:9-10, 1Th. 4:1, Heb. 13:16, 13:20-21) and God chooses to reward them (Rom. 2:6, 1 Cor. 3:8, 4:6, 2 Cor. 5:10, Gal. 6:6-10, Rev. 2:23, 22:12). These elements, God’s grace, the acts pleasing to God that they bring about, and the reward God chooses to give, are the key elements in the Catholic theology of merit, as we shall see.
The doctrine of merit is thus the same as the doctrine of rewards. To help Protestant readers grasp this and cut through the linguistic confusion experienced on this point because of the associations of the term “merit” in the Protestant vocabulary, they should try substituting “reward” or “rewardable action” or “to perform a rewardable action” for “merit” in what follows. This should cut through the confusion."
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guanophore
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Then you got my point. In the Latin Church this is called prevenient (drawing) grace, and is available to every human being. Those who respond to drawing grace are given even more grace, so that they are enabled to come to the repentance you describe.
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brb3
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So if we respond, via free will …then God REWARDS us with more grace !!
As scripture says " grace upon grace"
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thenobes
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Thank you Vinny.
It seems that I may have misunderstood both Aquinas and the catechism when it comes to the meaning of merit. It appears that I am confusing the congruent merit of one’s works with the changes that take place in us as we are changed more and more into images of Christ. But that change seems to me to give us an intrinsic worth that may be the basis of our meriting eternal life.
…I will look further into this.
peace
steve
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thenobes
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Vinny I found this (that I overlooked before).
Whether a man in grace can merit eternal life condignly?)
I believe Yes!
peace
steve
Aquinas said (from First Part of the Second Part - Question 114 - Article 3
Whether a man in grace can merit eternal life condignly?)
But although the work is worthy, are we?
I believe Yes!
peace
steve
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brb3
Guest
Yes…
We have infinite worth, via our NEW kinship to Christ, His worthiness "washing (Baptizing) us clean of all sins " …
And, our kinship retained, provided we CONTINUE to be cleaned via the receipt of Sacraments…esp Confession & the LIFE GIVING BODY / BLOOD of Christ in Eucharist.
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Vinny213
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I am glad to see people agree with me that merit does not mean worthiness but only reward. You can check the catechism, Aquinas, or Ludwig OTT to prove that I am correct. Once we realize that merit is only a synonym for reward in catholic theology than we can see that the protestant objection to merit is baseless since they also believe in reward for works.
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fhansen
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But isn’t it still true that they’d deny those rewards include eternal life?
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brb3
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Vinny213…
You’re a fast study … quickly mastering the tough ‘conflicts/enigmas’ in Christian denominational apologetics
. Are you a believer … but, perhaps unchurched, and seeking that one begun by the Apostles ?
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rcwitness
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Hey Vinny,
Sorry I haven’t read all these responses, I skimmed through them but normally like to read all before adding. But this is a great question. Its important and especially regarding the protestant understanding of our meaning.
I believe Merit is, like you seem to conclude, is the reward of our life in Him. There are works neccessary for salvation like repentance, charity, patience, etc. These are not works protestants generally think of when accusing us of trying to merit heaven. Our Merit is based on effort and obedience to His Will. We consent to His commands but it is not an idle consent. But important to know is that Heaven itself is not our Merit. We, by the Grace of God, will enjoy the Merits of Christ. And our Merit in this life is the increase of His grace that we seek.
Justification for Catholic understanding, is not a one and only time event. Initiated by God’s good work and grace, we consent to His call through faith. He did not call us because of any merit or goodness in us. But the Lord’s initial justification for us is inevitably met by the need of obedience and effort. The degree of effort and obedience varies with every individual and is what is meant by Merit. It is the duty of man to depart from evil. This takes effort and work. The faith alone doctrine is based on the belief of once saved always saved. If we can fall from this Grace of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-39) like the Church teaches, we see the neccessity of participation, struggle, steadfastness, endurance, effort, which all is meant by the term work to the Catholic.
There are levels in heaven, no? Is this not determined by our Merit?
God Bless Bro,
Great question.
Michael
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Vinny213
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Its also important to point out that merits are God’s gift to us, but beacsue of our cooperation with his grace they can also properly be called ours, that is the dynamics of synergy. To those wondering what my beliefs are I am a believer though I dont associate with any specific strain of Christain thought whether protestant, catholic, or orthodox.
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Wa_Michael
Guest
Rewarding us more grace is just out of His free will, not that because we have responded to one.So if we respond, via free will …then God REWARDS us with more grace !!
As scripture says " grace upon grace"
As one responds, the goodness of such a grace is experienced in life of the one responding, in its own as a grace. Being bestowed more and more grace is just as a favour as the very prior grace!
And, of course, that is what is meant by grace - a favour - whereas putting presupositions may mean something else like appreciation or wage, not grace!
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brb3
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Peter, in his first sermon @ Pentecost, when he and all were filled with HS, said to his audience" repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the GIFT of Holy Spirit" …So those who received his word were BAPTIZED, and there were added that day about 3000 souls. And they devoted themselves to the Apostles TEACHING and FELLOWSHIP, to the BREAKING OF BREAD ( EUCHARIST) and the PRAYERS. …And all who believed WERE TOGETHER and HAD ALL THINGS IN COMMON…And day by day, ATTENDING THE TEMPLE TOGETHER and BREAKING BREAD …with GLAD and GENEROUS HEARTS, PRAISING GOD and HAVING FAVOR with All people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
So, Vinny … now that ACTS clearly spells out the process above …it is imperative that you too start attending the TEMPLE, with BELIEVERS, receiving the EUCHARIST, PRAYING
and sharing in CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP.
This is the GOLD-STANDARD for believers, started on FIRST DAY OF CHURCH existence, and continuous ever since. We can’t be long-range, internet, closet Christians for long. We must declare an affiliation with that Church, started by Apostles, …that best follows scripture and has roots identifiable back thru 2000 years history to that Pentecost Church
Unless we continue to daily receive God’s GRACIOUS GIFTS, we will not persevere for long. I have tried to continue IN CHRIST, apart from Church, and fell/failed miserably into massive sins again. It was only thru the Catholic Church that I was recovered back into friendship with Christ & fellowman.
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rcwitness
Guest
This is the essence of the Catholic faith found in the beginning. They did not continuously question and look for disputes. Christianity is not a strain of thought. It is a family. The Catholic faith has many hard to understand doctrines. I can understand a process of learning their meaning and purpose. But This passage is the heart of the Mass and Christian Charity. Breaking Bread was what our Lord established and re-inforced after his resurection. It has ALL blessings associated with it, including the unity of all of us.
Thanks brb3,
and God Bless Vinny.
Michael
PS. We can merit punishment and hell too. Merit is a due rendering according to our deeds. Wheather in His grace (heaven and its rewards) or outside His grace (hell and its punishments).
Grace Alone not faith alone
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