Messianic Jew

[Valke2]

You could not be further from te truth.

The ones Ive met have come from a long line of Jews and were raised and taught in the synagogue growing up. They all have different stories has to how tey came to know Christ. They incorporate Jewish tradition with tere new found beliefs.

How many have you met? I find your posts hard to credit.

 

[Valke2]

"The first belivers in Joseph Smith and Mormonism were all Christians, and Christains find that religiously irrelevant. The only difference is that when Christains take on Mormon beliefs, Mormons have the integrety to call these people Mormons, not ‘Christians for Smith’ (an equivalent form of ‘Jews for Jesus’) or ‘Mormon Christians’ (an equivalent form of ‘Hebrew Christians’). …Indeed, the very Christians who support such notions as ‘Jews for Jesus’ of ‘Hebrew Christians’ are those who protest the most vociferously when Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses call themselves Christians.

geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/history/histj4j.htm

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I’ve often wondered about the first part too. What is a “Messianic Jew” exactly?

A “messianic Jew” would properly be a Jew who awaits the coming of the true Messiah.

There are those who misuse that term and are really Jews who have converted to some form of Protestant evangelical Christianity. But they cease to be Jews by religion once they make such a conversion.

For more info on why their religious beliefs are incorrect according to Judaism, see drazin.com

Inevitably when I encounter this question (usually from Christians), one or more will say, “But since Jesus was a Jew, why can’t a Jew believe in Jesus?”

My response to that is, “If a person can remain a Jew by religion while believing in Jesus, then surely someone can believe in Mohammed or Buddha while remaining a Christian.” Once I put it that way, most Christians understand it better.

 

[Dymphna2008]

The problem for believing and practicing Jews, especially the Orthodox, is that over the centuries the Christians have persecuted them so harsely and almost unremittingly. So, growing up and practicing as your parents and community taught, then one day saying, “I’ve finally found my saviour, and he is Jesus, the Christ,” is not only a betrayal of them as a people, it is a wound to them personally. It’s akin to a person with a family member murdered on September 11, 2001, in those plane crashes suddenly announcing they have been studying the Qu’ran and have decided to become Muslim. How horrified would the family be; what kind of wound would it open?

Messianic Jews feel that their family should follow them, as a Catholic “born again” at a Baptist bible study, goes through an aggressive period of pointing out how wrong it is to be Catholic. We have all been through it, and to some degree we feel akin to the Jewish family because our faith is considered null and void by these people. Certainly, they have small numbers, and I doubt they will ever be a leading congregational force in the Christian world, but Messianic Jews make everyone feel uncomfortable at best, and at worst end up making spiritually ambivalent people, whether Jewish or Catholic, or even Mainline Protestants (as they are called by evangelicals) question the faith which they were baptized and educated in.

I know that Judaism is a spiritual and God-given religious path, just as Catholicism and it’s many cults of praise (be careful; this word is used in a traditionally Catholic way) give spiritual nourishment to anyone. Messianic Judaism relies on a prophetic interpolation of the Bible that the Church, and even Judaism would question as legitimate. It’s the same sort of study you get from those tv preachers, shallow and without real historical and spiritual foundation. Catholicism and Judaism have a history of deep study and application that makes even the most basic understanding of their principles and actions relevant. People who otherwise don’t care about the deeper questions, know, for example, that a rosary, or a saint, or some other form of “veneration” is, of itself, understanding and communion with God. The old granny–yours, mine, even that of the converted fundamentalist–kneeling in the pew with their rosaries, medals, and such isn’t just a stereotype, they are the example of faith at the practical level of living in hope; the Catholic equivalent of the fundamentalist preaching their Bible, but with a far better understanding. The same is true for the Jewish community which prays and lives the example God set it. Messianic Judaism betrays that.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Hopefully they can come to believe in Purgatory, if they are otherwise ok people. I wouldn’t like to count on that completely though.

Were you aware that Orthodox Jews DO believe in a place of purgation? WHERE do you think Catholics GOT the idea FROM?

WHY do you think Orthodox Jews pray for the dead? We recite the Kaddish prayer for someone who has died…we do this for 11 months. We are praying that they be loosed from the punishment due for the sins they had before they died, even if they were forgiven of them.

MANY of the beliefs traditional Catholicism holds they got FROM JUDAISM.

 

[LaMar]

Were you aware that Orthodox Jews DO believe in a place of purgation? WHERE do you think Catholics GOT the idea FROM?

WHY do you think Orthodox Jews pray for the dead? We recite the Kaddish prayer for someone who has died…we do this for 11 months. We are praying that they be loosed from the punishment due for the sins they had before they died, even if they were forgiven of them.

MANY of the beliefs traditional Catholicism holds they got FROM JUDAISM.

Hi Carol’s Daughter,

Like you, I’m a new member. I’ve been here a couple of weeks now, and I’m coming to realize that Catholics are like everyone else. Some of them put faith above humanity.

We’ve both known people like that, in our own communities, I’m sure.

In any event, I’d really enjoy a conversation with you. It might be better to just ignore the people that insinuate that you’re the anti-Christ and other such nonsense. (They have said the same to me at different times), at least long enough for me to get to know you.

As an aside, one of the most interesting conversations I’ve ever had was the result of being stuck on a plane next to a hasidic type from Boro Park. We compared notes on our upbringings and our communities. Surprising how similar it was.

Take Care,

LaMar

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Hi LaMar! Yes, I agree about the similarities! Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Catholicism are very very similar, but few Jews or Catholics can see it. Those of us who have had a foot in both worlds (for whatever reasons) seem to be able to see it more clearly.

I just wanted to clear one thing up as to WHY Jews do not believe in Jesus. It actually has very little to do with Christian persecution of Jews in history (well, that might be a reason why non-religious Jews refuse to consider Jesus, b ut its not why religious Jews do not consider him the messiah).

In Judaism, one belief that is very very strong is that God does not lower Himself to take on human form. This is CENTRAL to Judaism, and always has been.

In Deuteronomy 4, we read very plainly that God does not take on human form. Ancient pagan cultures believed that their rulers were divine, and that the gods often became human.

THIS is the PRIMARY reason why religious Jews do not accept Jesus. Also, because he did not fulfill the prophecies of the Tanakh (“Old Testament”), and even failed a few from the Christian Bible (for example, Matthew 24).

This is a subject I am very well-versed in, if anyone wants to know more. For over 20 years I have done volunteer work with various counter-missionary Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Judaism. I have counseled many Jews who got involved in cults, as well as in regular non-Jewish religions, and have gotten many out of them. In order to do this, I had to study non-Jewish religions and their histories greatly in depth, so if anyone has any questions, esp. about the so-called “messianics”, ask away!

 

[sdonig01]

I call myself a messianic jew. I was raised jewish and have come to believe that Jesus died for my sins. He has helped me to believe that the world does not rotate around me and that helping others is one of the most important things I can do. I used to attend synagague but now I regulary attand church. Not that I think it really matters as long I continue to try and strengthen my realationship with G-d. I was really affraid to tell my mom what I had concluded and she told me that she just wanted me to stop using drugs and be happy. Jesus has helped me do both and I continue to ask for his help daily. I hope this helps those who do not understand the term messianic jew. When I introduce myself to people in church I usually say I was raised jewish and now I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I do not know if that is right or awkward but that is what I do.

 

[LaMar]

Hi LaMar! Yes, I agree about the similarities! Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Catholicism are very very similar, but few Jews or Catholics can see it. Those of us who have had a foot in both worlds (for whatever reasons) seem to be able to see it more clearly.

Ultra-orthodox Judaism and small town Mormonism distilled in rural Utah are very similar too.

The fella I met and I shared a similar skepticism for the more extreme parts of our own cultures, and were able to converse (and chuckle) openly. By the time I met him he was a regular Orthodox Jew, and I was a Liberal Mormon. There was no shortage of funny stories about the more devout “true believer” types on that flight, and in the end I don’t know which of us outdid the other.

Thanks for the rest of your article. I hope it’s widely read and understood. I am personally quite skeptical about the existence of anything I can’t see (including heaven or the world to come, or G-d, or Jesus) but I like my tradition and I hope we can all come to an understanding which allows us to treat one another with civility, even when we disagree.

 

[danlaupat]

<<I agree about the similarities! Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Catholicism are very very similar, but few Jews or Catholics can see it. Those of us who have had a foot in both worlds (for whatever reasons) seem to be able to see it more clearly.>>

Carol, I agree with you here. I’m a former Jew, a convert to Catholicism. I consider it an advantage that I was Jewish before becoming Catholic. I consider myself to be a “complete Jew” in a sense, yet I do not observe any of the old laws (which I grew up with) because Christ fulfilled them. In fact, Catholicism has made me appreciate Judaism even moreso than when I practiced Judaism! I just “get it” now–hard to explain.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

<<I agree about the similarities! Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Catholicism are very very similar, but few Jews or Catholics can see it. Those of us who have had a foot in both worlds (for whatever reasons) seem to be able to see it more clearly.>>

Carol, I agree with you here. I’m a former Jew, a convert to Catholicism. I consider it an advantage that I was Jewish before becoming Catholic. I consider myself to be a “complete Jew” in a sense, yet I do not observe any of the old laws (which I grew up with) because Christ fulfilled them. In fact, Catholicism has made me appreciate Judaism even moreso than when I practiced Judaism! I just “get it” now–hard to explain.

I’d be curious to know how you explain the Jeconiah discrepancy in Jesus’ genealogy. In Jeremiah it says that Jeconiah would be childless as a Divine punishment, and that no ancestor of his would ever sit on the throne of David (i.e., could never be Messiah.) Yet when we read Jesus’ genealogy in Matthew, we see Jeconiah in it. I realize Christians do not believe Joseph was the literal father of Jesus, but in order for Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah, he would have HAD to be physically descended from an ancestor of King David. Mary’s genealogy does not count because in Judaism, only paternal lineage is counted for Messianic ancestry proof.

Also, I’d be curious to know how you deal with Christianity’s belief that Jesus is God become man (chas ve’sholom), when a cardinal tenet of not only Judaism but the Bible (Deut. 4) is that God does NOT become man?

I would like to invite you to discover your birthright religion…hardly any Jews who join other religions were religious as Jews before they did so. Why not give your birthright religion a chance before going after the Egyptian fleshpots, so to speak?

If you’d like to check it out, visit chabad.org for starters.

 

[Dymphna2008]

Harder than last year. Temps stay below 32F most of the time. This time last year I was able to turn off my electric heat most of the day, especially if I knew I would be out.

But I do have to make that judgement, you see. What you say about numbers would tally with ratio in Halifax, depending on population, and the fact Americans tend to be most serious about religion in daily and professional life. Watching the political give and take right now, I am appalled that faith is held to ransom for votes.

I do my best to stay abreast of basic questions in apologetics, since when I was younger, many of the questions about my spirituality as a Catholic were agenda driven, mainly by people I met and helped guide me through university life. I seemed to be an easy target. I wasn’t, because I found attending Mass and later, a Rosary Circle, gave me a good foundation for the answers needed. Instead, my friends and I in the bible study group eventually agreed to disagree and remain cordial.

And, while I have run into brick walls in puzzling out my faith over the years, I always come back to Mass. My friends in the other churches, many converted Catholics, tell me maybe God is telling me something else, but I have been able to develop a discerning voice which keeps me on the right path. God’s voice, which is seldom heard, and then only within the context of the moment, and my own wants and needs. I don’t confuse or conflate the two. I read and listened to much by Jean Vanier and Henri Nouwen. At the same time, dealing with my ex-wife’s own needs as a non-verbal quadriplaegic because of cerebral palsy, gave me much insight into what is miraculous and what is simple and natural. Too many find God’s miracles in the smallest reasons, but a miracle is a particular and special thing, and we can’t just claim them as our own, as there are perfectly good explanations if you study what is happening–Fatima vs. Medjugorge, for example.

For me, the Eucharist is the primary manifestation of God on earth, the greatest and probably most common if still miraculous thing. Protestants lack the vision to see this; I should say lack the Holy Spirit, but I will admit that some, a very few, from time to time really develop the discernment to see the Spirit’s work in their own lives. I heard lots of talk among my evangelical friends about the Spirit and its work, but only saw the evidence occasionally. They had a commitment when it came to preaching, teaching, babbling in tongues (a legitimate charism which is now misused and abused as evidence when there is none); however, they took no real pleasure in being asked “Would you give up everything for Christ?” An initial “Oh yes,” turns to “but … but it shouldn’t be taken literally,” when it’s put to them that they now sign over all their goods and chattels and become Franciscan’s, for example. That’s the kind of commitment I find lacks in evangelical Christians. Jean Vanier, a Canadian naval officer, gave up everything to care for the mentally disabled at L’Arche, in France, which now has over 150 communities, give or take, worldwide. I married Penny knowing exactly what I was doing and why, but we were forced apart eventually by her parents and Social Services.

Now, I’m almost content–frustration is always an inevitability–to live on the $865.00 (CAD) from SS, and the $40.00 my family sends. For me, a one bedroom apartment at $400.00/m that hasn’t been raised since I moved in almost ten years ago is a true miracle, but also a simple thing. I eat better than most because I know how to buy, and then cook, two things that don’t necessarily go together. In a real way, you can say I do have nothing compared to most; I’m grateful that having a mild cerebral palsy, I can walk, talk, argue, type (learned that in grade 10 but flunked since I couldn’t develop speed). I try as much as I can to follow Vanier and Nouwen’s understanding of the gospels–read them if you haven’t–since they speak with a background in care and social development of disabled people.

This is much too long, so I will stop here, and if any want to hear more, I will gladly tell them privately, and perhaps we could pray a virtual rosary together. Must go and make dough for strawberry tarts. Oh, by the way, I may live in Halifax, but I’m Cape Bretoner, eh, 'bye? God’s gift to the rest of humanity.

www.virtualrosary.org/dload.php

Hello Dymphana how is the winter up there.
I spent 2 years in Antigonish and spring didnt start untill May uch: uch:

Do not make the mistake that many, many Catholics make that because they have rejected Catholism that they do not have a God given purpose in His plan.

 

[Hisalone]

For they are still attached almost fully to the Old Law which Jesus fulfilled.

To know where one comes from is one thing but to keep clinging to those laws when Jesus clearly says enough of the old I have fulfilled them and I make things new.

to continue with the Old is a contradiction of faith.

pork
circumcision
salting of meat
washing
etc…

Make your committment and move on.

Those that are lukewarm I will spit out of my mouth.

Pork is not the healthiest of meats
circumcision—are they not Jews? Arent most westen babies circumciswd?
salting of meat? Where is the restriction not to salt meat?
Why are you being legalistic?

 

[Hisalone]

I work in NY, I’ve never seen any Messianic Jews, other than the occassional jew for jesus. I’d be interested in seeing how many jews converted to Messianics as opposed to Christians or other religions that follow it.

Please keep in mind that I prefaced my OP with “many messianic organizations, like Jews for Jesus, are made up of mostly christians…” I don’t argue that there aren’t messianic jews who were born jewish.

Why do you say that Jews for Jesus is made up of nonJews? Where is you data?

 

[Hisalone]

How many have you met? I find your posts hard to credit.

Mostly from the congregation that Ive been to.
40-50. But in researching their beliefs and their teachers I find the vast majority were former Jews.
God on line look at the Messianic Congregations see who their leader is-----the vast majority are former Jews.

 

[Hisalone]

"The first belivers in Joseph Smith and Mormonism were all Christians, and Christains find that religiously irrelevant. The only difference is that when Christains take on Mormon beliefs, Mormons have the integrety to call these people Mormons, not ‘Christians for Smith’ (an equivalent form of ‘Jews for Jesus’) or ‘Mormon Christians’ (an equivalent form of ‘Hebrew Christians’). …Indeed, the very Christians who support such notions as ‘Jews for Jesus’ of ‘Hebrew Christians’ are those who protest the most vociferously when Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses call themselves Christians.

geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/history/histj4j.htm

Rosen was a Jew became a Christian worked amounst Jews.
Is there a problem with that?
Yes Mesisianic Jews are Christian.
No Mormons are not.

 

[Hisalone]

Were you aware that Orthodox Jews DO believe in a place of purgation? WHERE do you think Catholics GOT the idea FROM?

WHY do you think Orthodox Jews pray for the dead? We recite the Kaddish prayer for someone who has died…we do this for 11 months. We are praying that they be loosed from the punishment due for the sins they had before they died, even if they were forgiven of them.

MANY of the beliefs traditional Catholicism holds they got FROM JUDAISM.

The difference is----and I do not want to hijack this thread-----pre Jesus/post Jesus.
Jesus paid it all the entire price.

 

[Hisalone]

I call myself a messianic jew. I was raised jewish and have come to believe that Jesus died for my sins. He has helped me to believe that the world does not rotate around me and that helping others is one of the most important things I can do. I used to attend synagague but now I regulary attand church. Not that I think it really matters as long I continue to try and strengthen my realationship with G-d. I was really affraid to tell my mom what I had concluded and she told me that she just wanted me to stop using drugs and be happy. Jesus has helped me do both and I continue to ask for his help daily. I hope this helps those who do not understand the term messianic jew. When I introduce myself to people in church I usually say I was raised jewish and now I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I do not know if that is right or awkward but that is what I do.

Praise God!!!

Thank you. You are a joy.

 

[Hisalone]

Harder than last year. Temps stay below 32F most of the time. This time last year I was able to turn off my electric heat most of the day, especially if I knew I would be out.

But I do have to make that judgement, you see. What you say about numbers would tally with ratio in Halifax, depending on population, and the fact Americans tend to be most serious about religion in daily and professional life. Watching the political give and take right now, I am appalled that faith is held to ransom for votes.

I do my best to stay abreast of basic questions in apologetics, since when I was younger, many of the questions about my spirituality as a Catholic were agenda driven, mainly by people I met and helped guide me through university life. I seemed to be an easy target. I wasn’t, because I found attending Mass and later, a Rosary Circle, gave me a good foundation for the answers needed. Instead, my friends and I in the bible study group eventually agreed to disagree and remain cordial.

And, while I have run into brick walls in puzzling out my faith over the years, I always come back to Mass. My friends in the other churches, many converted Catholics, tell me maybe God is telling me something else, but I have been able to develop a discerning voice which keeps me on the right path. God’s voice, which is seldom heard, and then only within the context of the moment, and my own wants and needs. I don’t confuse or conflate the two. I read and listened to much by Jean Vanier and Henri Nouwen. At the same time, dealing with my ex-wife’s own needs as a non-verbal quadriplaegic because of cerebral palsy, gave me much insight into what is miraculous and what is simple and natural. Too many find God’s miracles in the smallest reasons, but a miracle is a particular and special thing, and we can’t just claim them as our own, as there are perfectly good explanations if you study what is happening–Fatima vs. Medjugorge, for example.

For me, the Eucharist is the primary manifestation of God on earth, the greatest and probably most common if still miraculous thing. Protestants lack the vision to see this; I should say lack the Holy Spirit, but I will admit that some, a very few, from time to time really develop the discernment to see the Spirit’s work in their own lives. I heard lots of talk among my evangelical friends about the Spirit and its work, but only saw the evidence occasionally. They had a commitment when it came to preaching, teaching, babbling in tongues (a legitimate charism which is now misused and abused as evidence when there is none); however, they took no real pleasure in being asked “Would you give up everything for Christ?” An initial “Oh yes,” turns to “but … but it shouldn’t be taken literally,” when it’s put to them that they now sign over all their goods and chattels and become Franciscan’s, for example. That’s the kind of commitment I find lacks in evangelical Christians. Jean Vanier, a Canadian naval officer, gave up everything to care for the mentally disabled at L’Arche, in France, which now has over 150 communities, give or take, worldwide. I married Penny knowing exactly what I was doing and why, but we were forced apart eventually by her parents and Social Services.

Now, I’m almost content–frustration is always an inevitability–to live on the $865.00 (CAD) from SS, and the $40.00 my family sends. For me, a one bedroom apartment at $400.00/m that hasn’t been raised since I moved in almost ten years ago is a true miracle, but also a simple thing. I eat better than most because I know how to buy, and then cook, two things that don’t necessarily go together. In a real way, you can say I do have nothing compared to most; I’m grateful that having a mild cerebral palsy, I can walk, talk, argue, type (learned that in grade 10 but flunked since I couldn’t develop speed). I try as much as I can to follow Vanier and Nouwen’s understanding of the gospels–read them if you haven’t–since they speak with a background in care and social development of disabled people.

This is much too long, so I will stop here, and if any want to hear more, I will gladly tell them privately, and perhaps we could pray a virtual rosary together. Must go and make dough for strawberry tarts. Oh, by the way, I may live in Halifax, but I’m Cape Bretoner, eh, 'bye? God’s gift to the rest of humanity.

www.virtualrosary.org/dload.php

Thank you for sharing.
You are expeirincing some rough moments and am gratefull God has been with you.

 

[Dymphna2008]

First, I have to recognize that I am who I am, second, that God is present, although we may not feel him or be too busy to acknowledge his presence. Whether born again, Jews for Jesus, practicing Catholic, we all lose sight of God at some point, though there are always bread crumbs to show the way. I live my life without pushing too swiftly, God isn’t concerned with our fervour–fervour is often dangerous–he is concerned with our humility and the will to take the time to reflect on our own salvation, not as a prize, but a gift.

I’ve always hated the idea of the “Christian Soldier”. There is no humility, no reason to take stock of ourselves and consider that we must “be still, and know the voice of God.” I meet aggressive “prophet” and “preacher” types who claim those special soldierly charisms and I reign them in, since I can see they have no mandate to preach and prophesy from the Church. They do force me to consider my own humility, if nothing else. It’s something that I don’t hear enough of from Protestant evangelicals. The liturgy of the Church, on the other hand, is constantly, consistently developing the ideal of humility from the lectern. Read through the missalettes for any given month and you will find many priests take the idea of humility and sort through it, gradually putting it together. Evangelicals don’t do that, they make a huge drum roll about being born again, living as Jesus would have you to, then slip on the soap of one verse fits all.

Catholic teaching is biblical teaching. Mary’s praise in Luke is a direct derivation of Hannah’s praise for the birth of Samuel, hence a reflection of the Jewish idea of Mishnah, which is constantly reflected in the NT. Jesus’s Sermon On the Mount is a reflection of the discourses of Moses in Deuteronomy before he is laid to rest by the Lord of Hosts himself. Evangelicals see that only very dimly, their idea of biblical teaching is to take it verse by verse and shovel it in, as though they were eating spoonfuls of pablum. They neglect to compare OT with NT discourse, poetry, prophecy, literature in general. So many born again Christians can quote verse for verse, or at least the ones that count. But do they actually read what is written around it, what came in the last paragraph or the next. When they don’t it is easy to misconstrue the Word of God. I trust the Church to teach me in the whole way, not simply by spooning pablum.

Oy! I sound like a Cape Breton mother. I’ll duck now, thag you wery buch.:coffeeread: