Messianic Jew

[LutheranDK]

Most Jews I have seen agree that Messianic Jews are either Christians faking to be Jews, or they are real Jews who are traitors to all other Jews and considered non-Jews now. Both types are considered trash by most Jews I’ve ever talked to.

I don’t really get 1, and the consequences of 2:

1: If my understanding of halachic law is correct, anyone whose mother is Jewish, or who converts to Judaism, is also Jewish. Period. If that is the case, then Jews who accept Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah are still Jews. There can be no other consequences. Even if such a view was an apostasy, which it is not, that would not change the fact that they were still Jewish.

2: The same group can not be defined as both “real Jews who are traitors” (another thing I don’t get: Why is accepting Jesus an act of treason against one’s people?), and “non-Jews now”.
Those two statements are conflicting. It MUST be one or the other - it cannot be both.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

All Messianic Jews (Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah) are also Christians. They don’t CALL themselves Christian that often, as that name has been tainted by the multitude of villainies from Christians against the Jewish people during the last 2000 years.
But theologically, Messianic Jews ARE Christians.

Not all. No more than Muslims are Christians just because they accept some form of Jesus. Not everything JESUS is Christian.

Many Messianics I know don’t want to be associated with paganism of Christianity, they shun Easter and Christmas and celebrate Jewish feasts instead. And unlike Christians who say Torah is abolished with the cross, they observe Torah.

So they are not all like Christians.

I think we’re talking past oneanother here. When I say “Messianic Jew”, I mean ANY Jew who have come to realize that Yeshua IS indeed the Messiah that God promised through the Prophets - regardless of his or or “affiliation” within the Body of Christ.

Messianic Judaism is one religion, Christianity is another. Maybe you are talking about Jews who converted to Christianity, they are not considered Messianic Jews, but Christians, or Christian Jews.

 

[c659smith]

A lot of misinformation here.
Messianic Jews are Jews who believe Yeshua is the Jewish messiah. They do keep the Jewish feasts and holidays. They consider themselves “completed Jews” and for the most part are disowned maybe not by family but by the Jewish community who say they are not Jews at all.

To answer the second part they have nothing to do with Catholism.

So tell me what would a Messianic Jew have in difference with Catholism since clearly that is what the Catholic Church for all intent and purposes follows.

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

Have you ever been to a Catholic Passover before Easter?

Many Catholics celebrate a Seder meal to recall the roots of our Eucharist and the historical context of the last supper. In this Seder there is a partaking of 4 cups of wine, a retelling of the freedom from Egypt, and partaking in Matzo, unleaven bread, the bitter herbs, the apple mixture, the salt water, the fresh water, etc…, the children opening the doors, etc and Share in lamb or a common meal too. this recalling the events of Israels frredom it also recalls our freedom. Jesus understood His life within the context of Judaism. He read the prophets and pondered law. Catholics believe we inherit the promises made to Israel through Jesus.

The Bread that we use in the Eucharist is unleavened due to the use of that bread in the Jewish celebrations.

Also Mary being a Jew and the DCatholic Church taking Mary as the Mother of the Church follows Messianic Jews as we ultimately have a Jewish Mother.

The Catholic Church also for years after Jesus’s resurrection was considered a Jewish sect.

Many find there way to the Catholic Church it may just take awhile.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t really get 1, and the consequences of 2:

1: If my understanding of halachic law is correct, anyone whose mother is Jewish, or who converts to Judaism, is also Jewish. Period. If that is the case, then Jews who accept Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah are still Jews. There can be no other consequences. Even if such a view was an apostasy, which it is not, that would not change the fact that they were still Jewish.

2: The same group can not be defined as both “real Jews who are traitors” (another thing I don’t get: Why is accepting Jesus an act of treason against one’s people?), and “non-Jews now”.
Those two statements are conflicting. It MUST be one or the other - it cannot be both.

In a lofty sense they are still halachly Jews no matter what.

In a practical sense they are apostates and stripped of Jewishness and considered as non-Jews. They aren’t counted for minyans or anything like that. No right of return to the State of Israel. Trash, to many other Jews.

Accepting Jesus is accepting the leader of Christians who tormented Jews for centuries and sent them to the ovens, that’s mostly why they are considered traitors.

 

[LaMar]

In a lofty sense they are still halachly Jews no matter what.

In a practical sense they are apostates and stripped of Jewishness and considered as non-Jews. They aren’t counted for minyans or anything like that. No right of return to the State of Israel. Trash, to many other Jews.

Accepting Jesus is accepting the leader of Christians who tormented Jews for centuries and sent them to the ovens, that’s mostly why they are considered traitors.

In many ways this is similar to Utah culture. There are accounts all over the internet of people who are disowned by their family members simply for getting an abortion, coming out as gays or lesbians, or finding some other faith or tradition that suits them better than Mormonism.

Of course with Catholics the trend seems to be to “not recognize” someone leaving. Sorta like if you had an abusive spouse, and you told him or her you were done with the relationship, and he or she said “you can’t leave”. There’s another thread here that describes this, with most of the participants on this forum thinking that behavior is just fine.

It’s sad that people can’t recognize their fellow beings as autonomous, thoughtful and independent; seeing them as valuable despite disagreements regarding matters of religion.

 

[LaMar]

I am not MJ, but I worked closely with MJs for over a month during my visit to New York on the Jews for Jesus summer campaign of 2007.
Messianic Jews (and now I am referring to those I have had relations with) refer to themselves first and foremost as Jewish, as to keep to their roots, but leave no doubt as to their theological orientation, and are confessionally Christians to the core.

I’ve read the term “Christian Jew” in a JFJ-book, and I think it is extremely fitting.

If someone called himself a “Christian Jew” I would be more confused than ever. Do they do things like keep a kosher house, or chant the Kol Nidre on Yom Kippur?

I guess I don’t understand how those things can go together. If it works for the adherents, then ultimately I’m all for it.

 

[Hisalone]

So tell me what would a Messianic Jew have in difference with Catholism since clearly that is what the Catholic Church for all intent and purposes follows.

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

Have you ever been to a Catholic Passover before Easter?

Many Catholics celebrate a Seder meal to recall the roots of our Eucharist and the historical context of the last supper. In this Seder there is a partaking of 4 cups of wine, a retelling of the freedom from Egypt, and partaking in Matzo, unleaven bread, the bitter herbs, the apple mixture, the salt water, the fresh water, etc…, the children opening the doors, etc and Share in lamb or a common meal too. this recalling the events of Israels frredom it also recalls our freedom. Jesus understood His life within the context of Judaism. He read the prophets and pondered law. Catholics believe we inherit the promises made to Israel through Jesus.

The Bread that we use in the Eucharist is unleavened due to the use of that bread in the Jewish celebrations.

Also Mary being a Jew and the DCatholic Church taking Mary as the Mother of the Church follows Messianic Jews as we ultimately have a Jewish Mother.

The Catholic Church also for years after Jesus’s resurrection was considered a Jewish sect.

Many find there way to the Catholic Church it may just take awhile.

I do not consider myself a Messianic Jew.
First off I did not grow up Jewish. I have attended Messianic Jewish services and presently am going through a Messianic Jewish class on the “Jewish objections to Yshua as Messiah”
Some former Jews may find themselves in Catholicism. The Messianic Jewish community is seperate from Catholicism tey by and large have no interest in Catholicism and disagree with many of the teachings and practices of Catholicsm.
Catholics have a Catholicentric view, those that arent Catholic dont see Catholicism as relevant.
As a former Catholic I still wrestle with some of what I was previously taught.

 

[c659smith]

In many ways this is similar to Utah culture. There are accounts all over the internet of people who are disowned by their family members simply for getting an abortion, coming out as gays or lesbians, or finding some other faith or tradition that suits them better than Mormonism.

Of course with Catholics the trend seems to be to “not recognize” someone leaving. Sorta like if you had an abusive spouse, and you told him or her you were done with the relationship, and he or she said “you can’t leave”. There’s another thread here that describes this, with most of the participants on this forum thinking that behavior is just fine.

It’s sad that people can’t recognize their fellow beings as autonomous, thoughtful and independent; seeing them as valuable despite disagreements regarding matters of religion.

Is abortion a simple thing? I am not jumping on this but it is the destruction of Human life.

Is a practicing Homsexual deifferent than that which God destroyed in Sodom and gemora?

Catholics do recognize someone not being in Communion with Christ and His Church.

The area you were referring to divorce also now the couple if married ccan seperate but they are not able to re-marry unless the marriage is annuled. Did not exist. Therer never was a marriage.

They are all welcomed in the Church but are not to receive the Sacraments until they repent. Turn away fropm their sins.

A Divorced woman or man that re-marries cannot promise to not to committ adultery for they would have to abstain from sex with their new husband or wife. Making any sense?

A practicing homosexual cannot marry so therfore the sexual act is a sin.

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.

sacred Scripture, which present homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity [Gen. 19:1-29, Rom. 1:24-27, 1 Cor. 6:10, 1Tim. 1:10], tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered [Persona Humana 8]. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved

 

[c659smith]

I do not consider myself a Messianic Jew.
First off I did not grow up Jewish. I have attended Messianic Jewish services and presently am going through a Messianic Jewish class on the “Jewish objections to Yshua as Messiah”
Some former Jews may find themselves in Catholicism. The Messianic Jewish community is seperate from Catholicism tey by and large have no interest in Catholicism and disagree with many of the teachings and practices of Catholicsm.
Catholics have a Catholicentric view, those that arent Catholic dont see Catholicism as relevant.
As a former Catholic I still wrestle with some of what I was previously taught.

I ask again what is different?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If someone called himself a “Christian Jew” I would be more confused than ever. Do they do things like keep a kosher house, or chant the Kol Nidre on Yom Kippur?

I guess I don’t understand how those things can go together. If it works for the adherents, then ultimately I’m all for it.

Christians, Jew or not, tend not to think all Torah is binding anymore, they might think pork is clean now. And they celebrate Christmas and things like that.

Messianic Jews tend to believe in Torah observance and Jewish feasts, not the Christian holidays.

Those are the standards for each, that I’ve seen.

But some of the Christians might observe Torah, kosher, and feasts, and some of the Messianics might celebrate Christmas. So it’s not always black and white.

 

[Valke2]

There are Messianic Jewish organizations that are really nothing more than Christian oraganizations trying to trick Jews who are not very religious or ignorant of their own religion into accepting Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the largest of these (I believe) and is clearly a christian missionary group. It is for this reason, I think, that many Jews react so strongly to those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I keep hearing stories on the internet about Jews who have become Messianic Jews, but all the ones that I’ve actually met were never Jewish to begin with.

There is also a group of Hebrew Catholics, which the Church recognizes and which are quite different from Messianic Jews.

 

[c659smith]

Christians, Jew or not, tend not to think all Torah is binding anymore, they might think pork is clean now. And they celebrate Christmas and things like that.

Messianic Jews tend to believe in Torah observance and Jewish feasts, not the Christian holidays.

Those are the standards for each, that I’ve seen.

But some of the Christians might observe Torah, kosher, and feasts, and some of the Messianics might celebrate Christmas. So it’s not always black and white.

But is there a Christian Faith (religion) that observes more of the Jewish Scripture, traditions, and teachings than that of Catholism.

Most Jews I have seen enter a Catholic Church are shocked by the similarities more than the differences. Scripture, traditions, and teachings . Even the sounds and smells.

 

[LutheranDK]

There are Messianic Jewish organizations that are really nothing more than Christian oraganizations trying to trick Jews who are not very religious or ignorant of their own religion into accepting Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the largest of these (I believe) and is clearly a christian missionary group. It is for this reason, I think, that many Jews react so strongly to those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I keep hearing stories on the internet about Jews who have become Messianic Jews, but all the ones that I’ve actually met were never Jewish to begin with.

There is also a group of Hebrew Catholics, which the Church recognizes and which are quite different from Messianic Jews.

Just as there are orthodox Jewish organizations, trying to trick people into even tighter bondage and slavery…
As I have explained - Messianic Jews, and Jews for Jesus is no exception, do not hide that their theology is different from rabbinic Judaism. And as for the “it’s only the ignorant, stupid and non-observant Jews that become Messianic Jews” - I think that this “argument” is more out of desperation, than anything else. The facts do not support that theory, anyway.

(interestingly enough: I met a former orthodox rabbi in New York, who had become Messianic…but I guess he was just uneducated and stupid, right?)

Finally the “were not Jewish to begin with” -claim:
Are their mothers Jewish? Or did they convert to Judaism before coming to faith?
If so, please tell me WHY they are not Jewish, in the light of halachic law?

 

[c659smith]

There are Messianic Jewish organizations that are really nothing more than Christian oraganizations trying to trick Jews who are not very religious or ignorant of their own religion into accepting Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the largest of these (I believe) and is clearly a christian missionary group. It is for this reason, I think, that many Jews react so strongly to those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I keep hearing stories on the internet about Jews who have become Messianic Jews, but all the ones that I’ve actually met were never Jewish to begin with.

There is also a group of Hebrew Catholics, which the Church recognizes and which are quite different from Messianic Jews.

The Torah begins and ends with acts of kindness. - Sotah 14a

So true for Christ did state that love is greater than faith

Even in the Last supper (passover) “This is My Commandment to love as I have loved you”.

Some last words on the cross-“Father forgive them for they know not what to do”.

 

[LutheranDK]

If someone called himself a “Christian Jew” I would be more confused than ever. Do they do things like keep a kosher house, or chant the Kol Nidre on Yom Kippur?

I guess I don’t understand how those things can go together. If it works for the adherents, then ultimately I’m all for it.

About the chanting of the Kol Nidre, I do not know.
As for keeping kosher - actually many do.

But can’t you be Jewish without observing these things? And what degree of kosher sets the bar?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

But is there a Christian Faith (religion) that observes more of the Jewish Scripture, traditions, and teachings than that of Catholism.

Well most Catholics I know eat pork and Messianic Jews say they don’t. Things like that.

 

[LaMar]

About the chanting of the Kol Nidre, I do not know.
As for keeping kosher - actually many do.

But can’t you be Jewish without observing these things? And what degree of kosher sets the bar?

Well, Jesus (and Rebbe Saul of Tarsus) did away with kashrut law in several places for Christians.

There are a lot of differences in these traditions which seem pretty difficult to transcend. If someone called himself a “Jewish Christian” I’d probably wonder where all the Christian Muslims and Muslim Jews went off to.

This isn’t an insult, mind you. Obviously this works for some people and hey, far be it for me to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn’t do. I just don’t understand exactly how the two philosophies of life, which are at odds on so many things, can mesh.

 

[LutheranDK]

In a lofty sense they are still halachly Jews no matter what.

In a practical sense they are apostates and stripped of Jewishness and considered as non-Jews. They aren’t counted for minyans or anything like that. No right of return to the State of Israel. Trash, to many other Jews.

Accepting Jesus is accepting the leader of Christians who tormented Jews for centuries and sent them to the ovens, that’s mostly why they are considered traitors.

I dare you to find A SINGLE confessed Christian who participated in the Holocaust!
Hans Frank came to faith AFTER the war had ended, awaiting execution.

So - give me one example of a Christian who participated in the Holocaust!

Actually, here in Denmark, Christians from the Danish Mission to Israel were instrumental in the rescue of the Danish Jews…

Having said that:
I know that Messianic Jews are considered as non-Jews. And I can…sort of relate to the emotional reaction, although, like any mob-mentality, I do not condone it. But when we are talking facts here, isn’t your own admitting them as still halachic Jews logically the same as rejecting that emotion-based view?

Is practise of rabbinic Judaism the only way to be regarded as Jewish (having lived in Jerusalem for 6 months, I know that most Israelis are just as secular as people in Western Europe)?
And what about Jews who become buddhist, New-Age, etc?

If they are not ostracized in the same manner as Messianic Jews, then why is that not hypocrasi (typo…)?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

There are Messianic Jewish organizations that are really nothing more than Christian oraganizations trying to trick Jews who are not very religious or ignorant of their own religion into accepting Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the largest of these (I believe) and is clearly a christian missionary group. It is for this reason, I think, that many Jews react so strongly to those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I keep hearing stories on the internet about Jews who have become Messianic Jews, but all the ones that I’ve actually met were never Jewish to begin with.

There is also a group of Hebrew Catholics, which the Church recognizes and which are quite different from Messianic Jews.

A lot are Christians who just want to be Jews but aren’t allowed to convert to mainstream Judaism because they believe Jesus. So they do their own Judaism.

Some are “real” ethnic Jews, I know a teacher last name Cohen who was one.

Most are into missionary work, but it’s fantasy that they are only doing it to trick Jews. You say it’s tricking them only because you believe Jesus is a bad thing anyway.

Rather they believe proselytizing as well as observing Torah are the right things to do, according to what Jesus commanded his disciples to do. Go out and preach to every creature.

 

[Valke2]

Just as there are orthodox Jewish organizations, trying to trick people into even tighter bondage and slavery…
As I have explained - Messianic Jews, and Jews for Jesus is no exception, do not hide that their theology is different from rabbinic Judaism. And as for the “it’s only the ignorant, stupid and non-observant Jews that become Messianic Jews” - I think that this “argument” is more out of desperation, than anything else. The facts do not support that theory, anyway.

(interestingly enough: I met a former orthodox rabbi in New York, who had become Messianic…but I guess he was just uneducated and stupid, right?)

Finally the “were not Jewish to begin with” -claim:
Are their mothers Jewish? Or did they convert to Judaism before coming to faith?
If so, please tell me WHY they are not Jewish, in the light of halachic law?

To answer your last question first. Their mothers were not Jewish and they didn’t go through a Jewish conversion. That is what I meant. Never heard of any jew promoting slavery.

I never said anything about anyone being stupid. Jews for Jesus targets groups like russian Jews who where not even allowed to practice Judaism and really have no idea what it is.

I’m not sure why you seem to be so angry. It isn’t a secret that many Messianic Jewish organizations take on the trappings of Judaism for the purpose of getting Jews to think that they can worship Jesus as God and still be Jewish.

What was the rabbi’s name?

What orthodox Jewish organizations are you referring to?