Messianic Jew

[CarolsDaughter]

Why do you say that Jews for Jesus is made up of nonJews? Where is you data?

Many years ago, I infiltrated the J4J organization as a countermissionary for the Jewish community. I did this to learn more about their operations, methods, beliefs, etc

MANY of their missionaries are either 100% Gentile, or are married to Jews, or are half-Jews (with the Jewish half usually being the father, which by Jewish law means they are not Jews since Jewish status is determined by the mother, not the father.)

Their head missionary (until his retirement) was Rev. Martin Rosen, an ordained Baptist minister (he adopted the name “Moishe” AFTER his decision to begin converting Jews, so as to make himself sound more palatable to uneducated, unsuspecting Jews.)

One thing many people don’t realize about the J4J organization is that they have cultic tendencies. This has been remarked upon even by some evangelical Christians and Christian leaders. If you are a J4J missionary, you cannot even marry without the consent and approval of the J4J leader, for instance.

The so-called “messianic” groups use much deception in their desperation to lure unsuspecting Jews to their ranks. However, they feel this lying and deception is justified by what Paul said in the Christian testament:

“To the Jews I became a Jew to win the Jews…I became all things to all men so as to win some of them”. (I believe that is in 1 Corinthians, don’t quote me on it.)

Maybe its just me, but I have a hard time with any religion that sanctions deception and lies to gain adherents.

 

[c659smith]

Many years ago, I infiltrated the J4J organization as a countermissionary for the Jewish community. I did this to learn more about their operations, methods, beliefs, etc

MANY of their missionaries are either 100% Gentile, or are married to Jews, or are half-Jews (with the Jewish half usually being the father, which by Jewish law means they are not Jews since Jewish status is determined by the mother, not the father.)

Their head missionary (until his retirement) was Rev. Martin Rosen, an ordained Baptist minister (he adopted the name “Moishe” AFTER his decision to begin converting Jews, so as to make himself sound more palatable to uneducated, unsuspecting Jews.)

One thing many people don’t realize about the J4J organization is that they have cultic tendencies. This has been remarked upon even by some evangelical Christians and Christian leaders. If you are a J4J missionary, you cannot even marry without the consent and approval of the J4J leader, for instance.

The so-called “messianic” groups use much deception in their desperation to lure unsuspecting Jews to their ranks. However, they feel this lying and deception is justified by what Paul said in the Christian testament:

“To the Jews I became a Jew to win the Jews…I became all things to all men so as to win some of them”. (I believe that is in 1 Corinthians, don’t quote me on it.)

Maybe its just me, but I have a hard time with any religion that sanctions deception and lies to gain adherents.

I have an unrelated question to your post.

I work at a major resort and the amount of Jews that follow their faith is very few and far between.

I mean there are some basic principles like the Sabbath. I can count on one hand the amount of times I needed to open an electronic door or turn on and off lights for the hundreds of thousands of Jews that have passed through the Resort.

Jews today (conservative and secular) I find for the most part are pro abortion, do not practice many of the rituals required such as Kosher foods and have regularly seen the mixing of dairy and meats at the same meal. If these basic principles are not followed than I ask what faith?

There is a hypocritical stance here except for the Ortrodox Jew to which today I think you will find there numbers increasing in a comparison of the secular or conservative Jewish base.

While the Orthrodox Jew is increasing in numbers it is because the Non Orthrodox are having very small families through the acceptable practice of Birth control and abortion where you do not see this in the Ortrodox Jew.

The major challenge for the Jewish people today as I see it is,

Where the Majority of Jews are in the United States and this population continues to become more and more secular in their faith there has to be a revival to bring these people back to ortrodoxy if you can. This not being done than their children’s children will either no longer be Jewish as they would see no salvation in their faith and would lead them to search elsewhere or become part of the Agnostic or atheist society of death that is in the world today.

On the other hand they can continue to erode the Jewish faith with their liberal ideas and changes.

It is more like a culural club today than faith based.

I say this for not to be critical but as an observer.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I have an unrelated question to your post.

I work at a major resort and the amount of Jews that follow their faith is very few and far between.

I mean there are some basic principles like the Sabbath. I can count on one hand the amount of times I needed to open an electronic door or turn on and off lights for the hundreds of thousands of Jews that have passed through the Resort.

Jews today (conservative and secular) I find for the most part are pro abortion, do not practice many of the rituals required such as Kosher foods and have regularly seen the mixing of dairy and meats at the same meal. If these basic principles are not followed than I ask what faith?

There is a hypocritical stance here except for the Ortrodox Jew to which today I think you will find there numbers increasing in a comparison of the secular or conservative Jewish base.

While the Orthrodox Jew is increasing in numbers it is because the Non Orthrodox are having very small families through the acceptable practice of Birth control and abortion where you do not see this in the Ortrodox Jew.

The major challenge for the Jewish people today as I see it is,

Where the Majority of Jews are in the United States and this population continues to become more and more secular in their faith there has to be a revival to bring these people back to ortrodoxy if you can. This not being done than their children’s children will either no longer be Jewish as they would see no salvation in their faith and would lead them to search elsewhere or become part of the Agnostic or atheist society of death that is in the world today.

On the other hand they can continue to erode the Jewish faith with their liberal ideas and changes.

It is more like a culural club today than faith based.

I say this for not to be critical but as an observer.

Everything you say is true, and in fact, I have said it many times.

Quite frankly, because only Orthodox (esp. Chasidic, or ultraOrthodox) Judaism is growing by leaps and bounds (10 children average per family, usually more), I’m just waiting for the secular Jews to die out. They will, eventually, because they are having either one or no children. And their “faith” (secular, reform, etc) is not interesting enough or spiritual enough to hold anyone.)

So, you see, those of us who are Orthodox Jews (or non-denominational but Orthodox-friendly, as I am) realize its just a matter of time. One day, soon, we will dominate in the Jewish community. The secular and heretical/reform Jews are too stupid to see what we see.

 

[Valke2]

I’ve read a lot of disgusting posts on these threads. BUt I never thought I read one by a Jew about Jews. Oh well.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I’ve read a lot of disgusting posts on these threads. BUt I never thought I read one by a Jew about Jews. Oh well.

What’s “disgusting” about what I said? Its all true.

 

[LaMar]

So, you see, those of us who are Orthodox Jews (or non-denominational but Orthodox-friendly, as I am) realize its just a matter of time. One day, soon, we will dominate in the Jewish community. The secular and heretical/reform Jews are too stupid to see what we see.

Well, too much insanity here for me. See you, folks.

 

[sphilomena]

What’s “disgusting” about what I said? Its all true.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Well, Hitler said he was Catholic, but his other statements violently contradict that one…

And thank you for that last clarification. Indeed - the devil has been a liar from the beginning…

No one should use Hitler and like people as a benchmark for Christians. But they do, and I can’t blame Jews entirely for being wary of Jesus. Yet if they really studied the NT like I have they would know it is all true and disregard bad Christians. So they are partly to blame for rejecting Jesus, but so are bad Christians in their reflection on him.

Like I said I hope there is Purgatory for decent people no matter what religion, then beliefs get corrected there and we all go on to Heaven at some point. I don’t condemn Jews to the Lake of Fire by any means.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

No one should use Hitler and like people as a benchmark for Christians. But they do, and I can’t blame Jews entirely for being wary of Jesus. Yet if they really studied the NT like I have they would know it is all true and disregard bad Christians. So they are partly to blame for rejecting Jesus, but so are bad Christians in their reflection on him.

Like I said I hope there is Purgatory for decent people no matter what religion, then beliefs get corrected there and we all go on to Heaven at some point. I don’t condemn Jews to the Lake of Fire by any means.

I beg to differ with you. I have studied the NT since my teen years out of a desire to understand other religions, and I have to tell you that I have found many glaring errors in it, from a Jewish perspective. There is no way a TRULY KNOWLEDGEABLE Jew could ever convert to Christianity. By ‘truly knowledgeable’, I mean a Jew who truly understands his own religion.

The first Christians believed that certain Jewish Biblical prophecies applied to their Jesus, and even though in the original Hebrew the prophecies did not apply, they changed them in translation to make them fit Jesus (Ps 22, 69 and Is 7:14 are some of the more infamous ones off the top of my head.)

In times past, when Jews were far more educated as to the Jewish faith, generally the only times a Jew would convert out of Judaism to Christianity was when they wanted to either escape their Jewishness due to persecution (too many to list), or wanted to do it to spite someone in leadership in the Jewish community (Rabbi Zolli in Italy and others), or were doing it because they thought it would improve their financial status (the Mendelssohns and others.)

In more recent times, when Jews are mostly very ignorant of their Judaism, they tend to convert because of simple ignorance. Its sad to me as a Jew, because I feel they should give their birthright faith an honest chance before seeking spirituality elsewhere. We Jews have an obligation, given at Sinai, to keep Torah. Other religions are not necessary for us, because we have a duty to follow Torah and be a light unto the nations.

I find it revealing that many of the most Jewishly ignorant Jews, when they do convert to Christianity, only “discover” their Jewishness because they see it as a way to try to persuade other Jews to do what they did.

 

[panoikei]

Off topic. The question is simple. What’s a Messianic Jew and how does it realte to Catholicism… Carol you are way off topic.Start your own thread to slam Christianity.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I beg to differ with you. I have studied the NT since my teen years out of a desire to understand other religions, and I have to tell you that I have found many glaring errors in it, from a Jewish perspective.

No there aren’t. Jesus commands Jews to keep observing Torah. His sacrifice was as a martyr who obeyed God, same as a lot of prophets. He never claimed to be God, only to have power over us like God, same as Moses had as a mediator between men and God. And he is the Suffering Servant root from Jesse who is first rejected, later prevails, which demands a Second Coming.

So Jewish arguments against the NT are usually very lame, since they mostly argue against Church doctrine, not against what the NT really says.

 

[LutheranDK]

I beg to differ with you. I have studied the NT since my teen years out of a desire to understand other religions, and I have to tell you that I have found many glaring errors in it, from a Jewish perspective. There is no way a TRULY KNOWLEDGEABLE Jew could ever convert to Christianity. By ‘truly knowledgeable’, I mean a Jew who truly understands his own religion.

The rest of this post is just propaganda that I will not use that much time on even re-reading to be able to post on it.
But to this, I say: I know of at least ONE former orthodox rabbi who has converted, and he told me that he is hosting a group of also former orthodox Jews, who have accepted Jesus.
So, by your logic, these former orthodox jews are not knowledgeable, and do not understand Judaism?

And, pray tell, WHAT in the NT are glaring errors “from a Jewish perspective”? Keeping in mind that I do not accept the Talmud, etc, as authoritative in this matter, since it only came to several centuries after the events that NT describes. Approaching this subject with basis in the Talmud is tantamount to circular reasoning…

 

[LutheranDK]

No there aren’t. Jesus commands Jews to keep observing Torah. His sacrifice was as a martyr who obeyed God, same as a lot of prophets. He never claimed to be God, only to have power over us like God, same as Moses had as a mediator between men and God. And he is the Suffering Servant root from Jesse who is first rejected, later prevails, which demands a Second Coming.

This is quite simply not true. There can be no doubt from a contextual reading of the NT that Jesus did in fact claim to be IHVH - and it is also what the rest of NT testifies about Him.
A few examples could be John 10:30, Php 2:9, and I could go on.

To deny the divinity of Christ is to deny Christ Himself, and to place oneself outside of the Kingdom of God. So repent! For you never know if Jesus returns in a minute, and then it will be too late for those who do not know Him.

 

[vocatio]

Go to this Messianic Jew Breakoff Thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3461472#post3461472

The following post was made by CarolsDaughter. So please elaborate on the 3 major points or rather 2 points and a lasting insult it seemed [keep in mind I still struggle with solo scriptura and would love to see a exegetical reply to the thread you high jacked from me reguarding “**Messianic Jew”]:

1. Jeconiah discrepancy
2. Deut. 4 - God does not become man
3. Egypian fleshpot

I’d be curious to know how you explain the Jeconiah discrepancy in Jesus’ genealogy. In Jeremiah it says that Jeconiah would be childless as a Divine punishment, and that no ancestor of his would ever sit on the throne of David (i.e., could never be Messiah.) Yet when we read Jesus’ genealogy in Matthew, we see Jeconiah in it. I realize Christians do not believe Joseph was the literal father of Jesus, but in order for Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah, he would have HAD to be physically descended from an ancestor of King David. Mary’s genealogy does not count because in Judaism, only paternal lineage is counted for Messianic ancestry proof.

Also, I’d be curious to know how you deal with Christianity’s belief that Jesus is God become man (chas ve’sholom), when a cardinal tenet of not only Judaism but the Bible (Deut. 4) is that God does NOT become man?

I would like to invite you to discover your birthright religion…hardly any Jews who join other religions were religious as Jews before they did so. Why not give your birthright religion a chance before going after the Egyptian fleshpots, so to speak?

If you’d like to check it out, visit chabad.org for starters.

 

[c659smith]

I beg to differ with you. I have studied the NT since my teen years out of a desire to understand other religions, and I have to tell you that I have found many glaring errors in it, from a Jewish perspective. There is no way a TRULY KNOWLEDGEABLE Jew could ever convert to Christianity. By ‘truly knowledgeable’, I mean a Jew who truly understands his own religion.

The first Christians believed that certain Jewish Biblical prophecies applied to their Jesus, and even though in the original Hebrew the prophecies did not apply, they changed them in translation to make them fit Jesus (Ps 22, 69 and Is 7:14 are some of the more infamous ones off the top of my head.)

In times past, when Jews were far more educated as to the Jewish faith, generally the only times a Jew would convert out of Judaism to Christianity was when they wanted to either escape their Jewishness due to persecution (too many to list), or wanted to do it to spite someone in leadership in the Jewish community (Rabbi Zolli in Italy and others), or were doing it because they thought it would improve their financial status (the Mendelssohns and others.)

In more recent times, when Jews are mostly very ignorant of their Judaism, they tend to convert because of simple ignorance. Its sad to me as a Jew, because I feel they should give their birthright faith an honest chance before seeking spirituality elsewhere. We Jews have an obligation, given at Sinai, to keep Torah. Other religions are not necessary for us, because we have a duty to follow Torah and be a light unto the nations.

I find it revealing that many of the most Jewishly ignorant Jews, when they do convert to Christianity, only “discover” their Jewishness because they see it as a way to try to persuade other Jews to do what they did.

In this area I could not verify to you nor you to me that certain passages off the Torah (old testament) were changed or weither it is a matter of translation.
I can say though that Catholic Theology as it relates to such scripture has been the same for near 2ooo years. The one area in Christianity that throughout the ages remain the same for we behold the old and new testament as Sacred Scriptures where no one has the authority to change them.
Another area is factual and that is believe it or not there are no longer animal sacrafices, the Temple no longer exists, candles immediately following Christ’s Crucification no longer remained lit inside the Temple til it’s destruction some 30 years later. For all intents and purposes the temple was destroyed and re-built in 3 days with the emmergence of Christianity.
Many may say that some scripture is translated incorrectly but I think and do not quote me but many areas were removed by the Jews in the next century.
First, there was more than one canon among the Jews prior to the advent of Christ as Messiah. The Septuagint, translated about 200 years before Christ by Alexandrian Jews, included the deuterocanonicals. Apparently the canon used in Palestine at the time of Jesus did not include these books. There was more than one canon among the Jews. Which canon do you accept?

So, on what basis do you accept which books are in the Old Testament? I don’t see any way to know which books are in it unless we rely on the New Testament.

Look Jesus was accepted by tens ofthousands of Jews that went gladly to their death by following the Torah that was written at the time. There was many revelations and prophetic signs fulfilled. Lets not quibble with a half dozen or so.
Catholism like it or not is the continuation of the great book and promises of the Messiah.
Catholics today hold the Jewish people very close to their hearts and as more and more Catholics become more educated in their roots which is definitely occurring today.
You know alot of Jews were up in arms on the Passion of Christ by Mel Gibson, because it was said to be anti-semitic but it created an opposit effect it was a movie that drew us closer Reminding us that Jesus was Jewish as well as His Mother and His Apostles.

 

[c659smith]

**Originally Posted by CarolsDaughter
I’d be curious to know how you explain the Jeconiah discrepancy in Jesus’ genealogy. In Jeremiah it says that Jeconiah would be childless as a Divine punishment, and that no ancestor of his would ever sit on the throne of David (i.e., could never be Messiah.) Yet when we read Jesus’ genealogy in Matthew, we see Jeconiah in it. I realize Christians do not believe Joseph was the literal father of Jesus, but in order for Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah, he would have HAD to be physically descended from an ancestor of King David. Mary’s genealogy does not count because in Judaism, only paternal lineage is counted for Messianic ancestry proof.

Also, I’d be curious to know how you deal with Christianity’s belief that Jesus is God become man (chas ve’sholom), when a cardinal tenet of not only Judaism but the Bible (Deut. 4) is that God does NOT become man?

I would like to invite you to discover your birthright religion…hardly any Jews who join other religions were religious as Jews before they did so. Why not give your birthright religion a chance before going after the Egyptian fleshpots, so to speak?

If you’d like to check it out, visit chabad.org for starters.**

First and foremost Matthew when writting the geneology of Jesus was not telling us where Jesus came from that was done over and over again by the prophets.

What we see in this is that there is only 5 women noted here in this list,

---

Is it because the mothers were not of importance ? of course not

The 5 all were involved in sexual scandal and all 5 proved to have Great sons or resposibiliies as it was revealed in Jewish or Christian history.

One must open their eyes to what and why not what they believe but what the author is trying to convey.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This is quite simply not true. There can be no doubt from a contextual reading of the NT that Jesus did in fact claim to be IHVH - and it is also what the rest of NT testifies about Him.
A few examples could be John 10:30, Php 2:9, and I could go on.

To deny the divinity of Christ is to deny Christ Himself, and to place oneself outside of the Kingdom of God. So repent! For you never know if Jesus returns in a minute, and then it will be too late for those who do not know Him.

Messiah doesn’t have to be God, just a great man obedient to God who is descended from David. He has power of God over us, but nothing suggests he was born a deity, it was all given to him by God.

You say this proves Jesus is God:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Then this must mean that since we are all one with God we are all Gods:

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Such is the type of misunderstandings behind this doctrine.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Off topic. The question is simple. What’s a Messianic Jew and how does it realte to Catholicism… Carol you are way off topic.Start your own thread to slam Christianity.

I’m not trying to “slam Christianity”, I just have a problem with people use deception to try to convert my people away from their God-given birthright as Jews.

How would YOU feel if a group arose, calling themselves “Catholics for Buddha”, and then proceeded to claim you can be Catholic and Buddhist, and misused Catholic symbols in the process?

 

[CarolsDaughter]

The rest of this post is just propaganda that I will not use that much time on even re-reading to be able to post on it.
But to this, I say: I know of at least ONE former orthodox rabbi who has converted, and he told me that he is hosting a group of also former orthodox Jews, who have accepted Jesus.
So, by your logic, these former orthodox jews are not knowledgeable, and do not understand Judaism?

And, pray tell, WHAT in the NT are glaring errors “from a Jewish perspective”? Keeping in mind that I do not accept the Talmud, etc, as authoritative in this matter, since it only came to several centuries after the events that NT describes. Approaching this subject with basis in the Talmud is tantamount to circular reasoning…

When Jews convert away from Judaism, its not always for truly spiritual reasons, sometimes its for spite toward the Jewish community. There have been many documented cases of this, so much so that we actually have a Hebrew term for it: “shmad le’hakhis”, or “apostate for spite”.

I do not know why the supposed Orthodox Jews became Christian; only God can know their true motive. But I think its also only fair to tell you that many who claim they were Orthodox were not; I have met “messianics” who made that claim, only to find they had a grandmother who had been Orthodox, and that was about it (shrug).

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’m not trying to “slam Christianity”, I just have a problem with people use deception to try to convert my people away from their God-given birthright as Jews.

How would YOU feel if a group arose, calling themselves “Catholics for Buddha”, and then proceeded to claim you can be Catholic and Buddhist, and misused Catholic symbols in the process?

I know more Jews who drift away into Buddhism, Hinduism, and atheism, than those who have converted to Christianity. Maybe you should concentrate more on saving them rather than on Jews who still retain belief in the God of Israel but also believe in Jesus.