Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

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Tqualy,

The Hebrew Catholics are now at home in the Archdiocese of St. Louis, Missouri. David’s sister, Rosalind Moss, is now mother superior and founder of a new women’s religious order.

They are totally Catholic but wish to restore their own cultural and ethnic practices within the Roman Catholic Church.

Take time and see how they find the symbols of the Catholic Church from the Old Testament. Know that they also suffer from their relations for becoming Catholic and are accused of renouncing their Jewishness…which they are most obviously still are. In fact, they say they are more Jewish in the Church than before. Most orthodox.

By the way, are you or have you associated with the Tridentines? They have their own church here 2 miles from my house. They have their own distinct perception of the Jewish people. There are atleast 22 identities of Jewishness at present in Israel…

Again, check out www.Hebrewcatholic.org. Here you will also find out about Sr. Rosalind. She became an evangelical Christian and then Roman Catholic. She has served in a Catholic evangelical association, and I met her here sharing her faith story. A remarkable woman.
 
Hi, Kathleen

I actually had to look that up…😃 Here’s a link just to make sure we are on the same page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic If this is what you mean, then no - I am rather far removed from this group. When I was an altar boy, everything was in Latin … and, I really rejoyced to hear everything in English. Going back to an all Latin form of worship is something that I would not look forward to.

My question was really quite sincere and certainly meant no offense. To my way of thinking, Jew is a religion as well as a political identify/nationality - making distinctions is somelthing that seems to energizes certain groups and individuals… but, I really just want to keep it simple.

Being a Jew - at least as I appreciate it - means to be still waiting for the Messiah because the Jews rejected Christ as the Messiah. If they had accepted Christ as Messiah, then they would be Christians - as in followers of Christ. Now, to have people wanting to go back to their roots is great - but, is this just a geneology encounter? To my way of thinking, being a devout Jew means observing the Law (which Christ fulfilled, and then we have the condemnation of the Jeudizers in Acts 15 to address.) If only certain elements of the Law are kept (Sabbath worship?) and others are dropped (circumcision?) what kind of Law is this? Who determines which will be followed? I am not aware of the Pope having made any determinatin here.

Are we celebrating Passover in the traditional way? Sounds good to me. Are we still waiting for God’s Anointed to come and redeem His People? This does not sound good to me.

Again, I have a simple Faith, in that you are either fish or fowl. Fishes that want to be fowls (or vide-versa) are quite possible in the area of religion. But, you really can not be both in belief and worship.

God bless
KathleenGee said:
Tqualy,

The Hebrew Catholics are now at home in the Archdiocese of St. Louis, Missouri. David’s sister, Rosalind Moss, is now mother superior and founder of a new women’s religious order.

They are totally Catholic but wish to restore their own cultural and ethnic practices within the Roman Catholic Church.

Take time and see how they find the symbols of the Catholic Church from the Old Testament. Know that they also suffer from their relations for becoming Catholic and are accused of renouncing their Jewishness…which they are most obviously still are. In fact, they say they are more Jewish in the Church than before. Most orthodox.

By the way, are you or have you associated with the Tridentines? They have their own church here 2 miles from my house. They have their own distinct perception of the Jewish people. There are atleast 22 identities of Jewishness at present in Israel…

Again, check out www.Hebrewcatholic.org. Here you will also find out about Sr. Rosalind. She became an evangelical Christian and then Roman Catholic. She has served in a Catholic evangelical association, and I met her here sharing her faith story. A remarkable woman.
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Wikipedia has a good article on Messianic Judaism worthy of reading:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

One of the biggest differences between the Church and messianic Judaism is that the latter rejects Jesus as God. They reject His Divinity and, hence, the Trinity.

Messianic Judaism has a lot in common with evangelical Christian views that make it more Protestant than Catholic in intent.
 
Hi, Peary,

Thanks for the link and sharing your insights.
peary said:
Wikipedia has a good article on Messianic Judaism worthy of reading:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

One of the biggest differences between the Church and messianic Judaism is that the latter rejects Jesus as God. They reject His Divinity and, hence, the Trinity.

Messianic Judaism has a lot in common with evangelical Christian views that make it more Protestant than Catholic in intent.
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God bless
 
I downloaded “Jewish Identity” from Hebrewcatholic.org.

That source is what you need to read, written by a Jewish man who became a Catholic, and then a priest!!

There are 22 Jewish identities in Israel.

Jewish is being part of a particular race of people. It is not dependent on whether or not a Jew accepts Christ or not.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!
 
KathleenGee said:
Jewish is being part of a particular race of people.
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We are not a ‘race’.
It is not dependent on whether or not a Jew accepts Christ or not.
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Well, there’s nothing we can do about what a bunch of Catholics define themselves as being. On the other hand, obviously, we don’t have to accept their self-definition.
 
Jews are Semitic peoples…with 22 (made known to the Gentiles so far)…

Anyway, I am learning my Scriptures again…I enjoy reading all the posts on their forums…

Also check out www.Israelcatholic.com.

I also am aware of a certain mindset towards Judaism by some Tridentines that is not in accord with the spirit of the Church.

Check out Roy Shoeman’s website, Salvation is from the Jews…I read his book and he also lays out the 6 constructs of Nazism, some of which are very prominent today.
 
Kanichen,

I am not into debating with Jewish people about my faith. The Jewish believers already believe in God…but those of us who experience the interior renewal and reformation in our souls through Jesus Christ also experience the indwelling of His Holy Spirit breaking forth to want to share the Good News with everyone.

My father raised me on the Holocaust and the terrible suffering of the Jewish people. He was in the Benedictine seminary at Lacey, heard of atrocities happening in Europe, finally got a hold of the ‘Black Book of Poland’, printed in 1941. I found it in the house and read parts of it when I was 9.

Ciao!
 
As Hebrew Catholics state, the Messianic Jews do not accept the authority of the Church, and struggle within regarding different takes…

I did not know they did not accept Christ in union with the Father and Spirit.

My Jewish friend’s grandparents were Italian Jews; his wife’s father was Jewish, her mother Italian Catholic. He was very attuned to Italian Catholicism. He said if a priest could explain the Holy Trinity in a way he could understand…my Jewish clients tell me they love the Italians and Irish… I especially love all three, grew up in an Italian immigrant neighborhood, and worked with Southern Italians overseas…

I say we Catholics need to be more like the Italians…
 
KathleenGee said:
As Hebrew Catholics state, the Messianic Jews do not accept the authority of the Church, and struggle within regarding different takes…

I did not know they did not accept Christ in union with the Father and Spirit.

My Jewish friend’s grandparents were Italian Jews; his wife’s father was Jewish, her mother Italian Catholic. He was very attuned to Italian Catholicism. He said if a priest could explain the Holy Trinity in a way he could understand…my Jewish clients tell me they love the Italians and Irish… I especially love all three, grew up in an Italian immigrant neighborhood, and worked with Southern Italians overseas…

I say we Catholics need to be more like the Italians…
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“…They did not accept Christ in union with the Father and Spirit”… I thought when Ros Moss was an Evangelical Protestant she already accepted that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit! She had been taught by Messianic jews then, was she not?
 
Lapell said:
“…They did not accept Christ in union with the Father and Spirit”… I thought when Ros Moss was an Evangelical Protestant she already accepted that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit! She had been taught by Messianic jews then, was she not?
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I was recently informed of the discussion in this forum regarding Messianic Jews and Hebrew Catholics. I am not an expert in anything, but perhaps I might be able to help regarding some of the points that have been made.

For the most part, Messianic Jews are Jews who have come to believe in Jesus as Messiah and as Second Person of the Holy Trinity. For the most part, their Christian theology derives from Evangelical Christianity. And for this majority of Messianic Jews, we share with them a belief in the inspiration of Scripture, the true humanity and divinity of Jesus, the trinity of Persons in the one God, the redemptive sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross, and many other doctrines. We differ with them on understanding of the nature of the Church, on ecclesiology, on the sacraments, and a number of other doctrines. In fact, as Rosalind (my sister) has noted, it is not just a matter of doctrinal differences, it is a different way of “seeing” or understanding the Gospels.

I wrote “for the most part” above because there are two other broad groupings of Jews in the non-Catholic Christian world. One group consists of those Jews who have entered mainline Protestant denominations or some of the Orthodox Churches. These are not inspired by Evangelical theology and they would not identify as “Messianic Jews”.

There is also a small number of Messianic Jews (mostly in Israel I believe) who see Jesus as Messiah, but not as divine. Many of these never get baptised.

So, yes, Rosalind was nurtured by the Evangelical Christian world for many years before she entered the Catholic Church. And she always believed in the Holy Trinity.

I hope that is of some help.

God bless,
David Moss
 
I didn’t read all of the posts but I heard the age old question “who is a Jew” come up. Judaism is a religion of questions more than answers so there’s a lot of different opinions and gray area on the subject. As far as orthodoxy is concerned a person with a Jewish mother is Jewish no matter what. They can be excommunicated for heretical beliefs as the Chasidics and Baruch Spinoza were, but they are still Jew’s. For a Jew by choice… by orthodoxy (its a very arduous process to convert) they would probably still be Jew’s even if they became Christians.

As for Christians being Jews: Well, If I recall correctly it was John the baptist and Paul the apostle who had this debate. John thought before you can become a christian you must become a Jew; Paul felt otherwise. I’ve known many Christians who say they take the entire bible as the absolute and true world of god, but never have I known one who abides to all Mitzvot (I think there’s some theological argument called “new authority” that relates to that).

Just my 2 cents.
 
Robbinson said:
Cluny - sure - some early church father quotes are below. This history has been an obstacle to me in my journey - although I believe I have come to understand and accept that this history does not affect the doctrines (and truth of the doctrines) of the Church.

Below are just a few of many similar quotes of early Church fathers towards the Jews:

"The synagogue is worse than a brothel . . it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts. … the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults . . the refuge of brigands and debauchees, and the cavern of devils. [It is] a criminal assembly of Jews . . . a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ. . a house worse than a drinking shop . . a den of theieves; a house of ill fame, a dweling in iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and abys of perdition. . . . As for me, I hate the synagogue. . . I hate the Jews for the same reason. " (St. John Chrysostom - Quoted in Malcolm Hay, the Roots of Christian AntiSemitism)

“The Jews, against whom the blood of Jesus Christ calls out, although they ought not be killed, lest the Christian people forget the Divine Law, yet as wanderers ought they to remain upon the earth, until their countenance be filled with shame.” (Pope Innocent III)

And then, as a matter of historical record, there is the persecution of the Jews during the crucades in the name of Christ, the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Catholic Church historians have also written of, and acknowledged the persectution and killing of entire Jewish populations over allegations of descretion of the host.

Again - I appreciate these are acts of individuals (misguided) within the Church - but to the Jewish community, it is a history wroght with pain and suffering.

Michael Brown - perhaps the leading messianic jewish apologist of our day, wrote a very powerful (and convicting) book called “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” - the "tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish People.

I respect Michael - he is a brilliant and sincere believer - the book is worth a read by all Christians to get a better grounding in the mistakes we (Christians) have made in the past, and the obstacles we (Christians) have created for the jewish people to accept the gospel because of their misimpression of the teachings of Jesus.

Blessings,

Brian
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First, these Fathers were not misguided, they were probably upset because of the the persecution of the Church by the Jews. Jesus Himself called them bunch of vipers, venon of the Pharisees, and so forth. it is time for the Jews to end their sensitivity and be more symphatetic to the CC. the Church has been persecuted for many centuries and still is in all parts of the World, yet, you dont see Catholics going around crying about it.

with all due respect to the Jews and God knows i love them but i think it is time to stop the victim attitude and assume some responsability here.
 
wisdomseeker said:
First, these Fathers were not misguided, they were probably upset because of the the persecution of the Church by the Jews. Jesus Himself called them bunch of vipers, venon of the Pharisees, and so forth. it is time for the Jews to end their sensitivity and be more symphatetic to the CC. the Church has been persecuted for many centuries and still is in all parts of the World, yet, you dont see Catholics going around crying about it.

with all due respect to the Jews and God knows i love them but i think it is time to stop the victim attitude and assume some responsability here.
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Can you give me a history lesson?
 
After Constantine when did the Jew’s persecute Christians? and before that how bad was it?
 
Hosh said:
After Constantine when did the Jew’s persecute Christians? and before that how bad was it?
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I am sure you know all about it. i wouldn’t have to tell you. or would i?

you cant possibly deny the persecution of the Church by the Jews, can you?
 
No, but were comparing a bathtub full of blood to a teaspoon. Worse yet it was done based on our ethnicity, not just our religion for 500 years. Give us at least a century after 1/3rd our population was murdered (in one of the most brutal fashions imaginable) before you ask us to stop playing victim. Many Catholics admit that the Holocaust couldn’t have happend without a long series events going back centuries that were partly inspired by the church, or at least its followers. What Jews did to Christians is ancient history. It’s like holding a grudge against Mongols.
 
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