Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

[Kaninchen]

Not necessarily. The facts are elusive given the parcity of records of the time but there is evidence that betwen the first and third Jewish/Roman wars Jews were converting to Christianity in alarming numbers. One theory as to why Akiba annointed Bar Khoba as messiah was in order to make Christianity unpatriotic and drive the Christians out of Judaism.

Pure conjecture/wishful-thinking.

I think Christianity was very much on their minds.

Pure conjecture/wishful-thinking.

 

[Robbinson]

Here are some questions that I would ask of you (not so much of you personally but of your point of view):

Do you associate with Catholics or Jews? Did/would you be more inclined to marry a non-Catholic Jew or Jewish Catholic than a gentile Catholic?

I associate with both Jews and Catholics. I am married and became Catholic after mairrage. It is my prayer that my wife (who is a Christian) will join the Church. I would not make a distinction between Gentile or Hebrew Catholics, however (which is your question).

Could you imagine an intergenerational Hebrew Catholicism where Hebrew Catholics consistently intermarried with other Hebrew Catholics (or married Rabbinical Jews who either converted or agreed to raise their children as Hewbrew Catholic)? You said you don’t but could you imagine keeping the Torah at least as the Sadducees might have, not necessarily the oral torah?

No - I don’t think its healthy to divide the body of Christ. I believe we all have “liberty” to maintain our cultural heritages, but creating self propogating communities within the Church exclusive to those of Jewish descent I personally believe would be divisive. That being said, a great understanding of the Jewish roots of our faith would be healthy for all Catholics, I think.

What are your thoughts and feelings about replacement theology? Is the Jewish contribution to revalation a matter of history only or is there some special role awating them in the future? If the former, then there is no point to Messianic Judaism (and Hebrew Catholicism is just another social group like Irish Catholicism).

Just to let you know where I stand, I am very skeptical about replacement theology but I can’t imagine Hebrew Catholicism as in intergenerational phenomenon because it would entail a racial awareness that Catholics generally shun.

I don’t believe in “replacement theology” that preaches that God is finished with Israel and that the Church has “replaced” Israel in God’s eyes. However, I do believe that the Church has been grafted into Israel - so Gentile believers and Jewish believers are the Church and together, are in a sense a “new Israel”. However, God’s plan for the balance of Israel is clear in Zechariah and Romans - after the full alotment of Gentiles comes in, God will remove the veil and Israel (as a collective), will come to faith and be saved. Christ will not return until this happens (until the Jewish leaders say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” - these were Jesus’s own words.

I believe that a majority of Jews did, in fact, convert to Christianity in the first two centuries AD and that they did not, for a variety of reasons, maintain their Jewish identity but simply merged into gentile Christianity through intermarriage. That seems to be the natural course of things.

I think that the Jewish/Christian schism is a tragedy of history, a sign of a fallen world.

I agree - Amen.

 

[KathleenGee]

Robbinson,
Agree with the answers you have given…I read comments of members of Hebrew Catholics and it is my goal to listen to their audio tapes on Israel and the Church.
I think Gentiles drawing on our Jewish roots is part of the graces that will give us a more rooted church in the future…When Jesus returns…the Catholic Catechism teaches that the Lord will rule in a new heaven and earth…

We are approaching an end of an era of time and perhaps a budding of Hebrew Catholicism…the term I am using to identify Jewish Catholics for now, whether you are member of them or not. I do like the idea of the prayer shawl…but more like a large mantilla shawl…I have seen the Jewish calendar, but prefer the Roman liturgical year circle…I think the greatest fruit is seeing ourselves linked together under one God.

 

[Splinker]

Hebrew Catholics are not Jews. They do not profess to be Jews. They are usually Jews who have converted to Catholicsm and who choose to keep some Jewish traditions.

That is a big difference from Jews for Jesus types who pretend they are Jewish in order to get other Jews to convert to Christianity.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No - I don’t think its healthy to divide the body of Christ. I believe we all have “liberty” to maintain our cultural heritages, but creating self propogating communities within the Church exclusive to those of Jewish descent I personally believe would be divisive. That being said, a great understanding of the Jewish roots of our faith would be healthy for all Catholics, I think.

Robbinson, thanks for answering my probing questions. I hope I am being sufficiently transparent in the direction I am going with them. I don’t wish to hijak this thread to satisfy my own curiosity but this is a question that has vexed me for some time.

On the one hand, your experience very nearly matches what I understand to be the early Jewish Christian experience. Obviously Christianity began as a purely Jewish affair but it was not restricted to the Jewish tribe and having breached that boundary it became predominantly gentile if only because there were more gentiles than Jews. So whatever direction the Church took, Jewish Christianity was not a distinction within it.

The question is, in this process, are gentiles becoming Jews (grafting) or are Jews becoming gentiles (conversion) or something else?

I don’t believe in “replacement theology” that preaches that God is finished with Israel and that the Church has “replaced” Israel in God’s eyes. However, I do believe that the Church has been grafted into Israel - so Gentile believers and Jewish believers are the Church and together, are in a sense a “new Israel”. However, God’s plan for the balance of Israel is clear in Zechariah and Romans - after the full alotment of Gentiles comes in, God will remove the veil and Israel (as a collective), will come to faith and be saved. Christ will not return until this happens (until the Jewish leaders say “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” - these were Jesus’s own words.

This is the very subtle point that vexes me. If every Jew converted to Catholicism would there be an Israel? If the answer is “yes”, then that is replacement theology: the Church is the New Israel. If the answer is “no”, then that suggests that there is something special about being Jewish apart from being Catholic, something perhaps worth preserving. But as we have seen, Catholicism does not preserve that distinction. Messianic Judaism does.

I cannot help but think that in the Jewish/Christian schism that something was lost and that the veil is not only on Israel. So you are perhaps more Catholic than I am.

Hebrew Catholics are not Jews. They do not profess to be Jews. They are usually Jews who have converted to Catholicsm and who choose to keep some Jewish traditions. That is a big difference from Jews for Jesus types who pretend they are Jewish in order to get other Jews to convert to Christianity.

What is a Jew? How can you tell when someone stops being Jewish? What is the objective test? Is it a matter of individual profession or is it a judgment from an authoritative source?

 

[Kaninchen]

What is a Jew? How can you tell when someone stops being Jewish? What is the objective test? Is it a matter of individual profession or is it a judgment from an authoritative source?

When do you think that various Jewish authorities all over the world decided that the best thing to do was to hand such questions over to Catholics to worry their heads about?

You’ve been told that it’s a ‘legal’ question, Judaism being a religion of Law. It’s for Jewish authorities to determine - really, honest, it’s not for Christian missionaries with ‘house of cards’ stories/histories and pronouncements about ‘hebrew’ Catholics and ‘messianic’ Jews, to decide for us.

Now, you may think it grossly unfair that Christians don’t get to determine who is a Jew but life’s like that sometimes.

 

[Robbinson]

The question is, in this process, are gentiles becoming Jews (grafting) or are Jews becoming gentiles (conversion) or something else?

Actually, I believe neither. A “Jew” (according to scripture) is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and a Gentile is everyone else. All, Jew and Gentile, who believe in Christ are Christians and those Christians who are in full communion with the Catholic Church are Catholic. So, a Jew does not become a Gentile, nor does a Gentile become a Jew. However, there is no distinction between Jewish believer in Christ or Gentile believer in Christ in terms of salvation or means of salvation.

Gentiles believers were grafted into the Jewish rootstock - meaning the promises of God. Note that disbelieving Jews were grafted out - but Paul (i) warns that believing Gentiles can be broken off if they don’t persist in faith and (ii) Jews who have been broken out due to disbelief may be (will be per Romans 11) grafted in through belief.

This is the very subtle point that vexes me. If every Jew converted to Catholicism would there be an Israel? If the answer is “yes”, then that is replacement theology: the Church is the New Israel. If the answer is “no”, then that suggests that there is something special about being Jewish apart from being Catholic, something perhaps worth preserving. But as we have seen, Catholicism does not preserve that distinction. Messianic Judaism does.

I cannot help but think that in the Jewish/Christian schism that something was lost and that the veil is not only on Israel. So you are perhaps more Catholic than I am.

You are correct - except we know from scripture, that while individual Jews will/have and will continue to come to faith in Christ over time, that Israel, as a collective, will remain in disbelief until the time of Jesus return. So there is no “risk” of Israel disappearing before Christ’s return. But the point you are making is often made by Torah observant messianic jews. I guess we will all find out some today (together )).

What is a Jew? How can you tell when someone stops being Jewish? What is the objective test? Is it a matter of individual profession or is it a judgment from an authoritative source?

There is a scriptural answer (never - as I noted above the definition of Jew and Gentile implied by scripture) and a rabbinic answer (in flux, but currently when one becomes a part of another religision - e.g., either profession of faith or baptism, depending upon which rabbi you ask). I’m not a label person - so I’m no offended by Jewish non-believers who insist on calling me a Christian and expressly not a Jew. I know what I am in God’s eyes according to His word. In any event, most importantly, I have peace, shalom and rest in my walk with Christ.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba:

What is a Jew? How can you tell when someone stops being Jewish? What is the objective test? Is it a matter of individual profession or is it a judgment from an authoritative source?

When do you think that various Jewish authorities all over the world decided that the best thing to do was to hand such questions over to Catholics to worry their heads about? You’ve been told that it’s a ‘legal’ question, Judaism being a religion of Law. It’s for Jewish authorities to determine - really, honest, it’s not for Christian missionaries with ‘house of cards’ stories/histories and pronouncements about ‘hebrew’ Catholics and ‘messianic’ Jews, to decide for us. Now, you may think it grossly unfair that Christians don’t get to determine who is a Jew but life’s like that sometimes.

Well, you gave a partial answer which was, essentially, that it is a matter of Jewish authority, not, you indicated earlier, individual identification.

However, you did not answer the most critical question: who have Jewish authorities decided is and is not a Jew? What exactly is it that the Jewish authorities have determined causes one to cease being a Jew?

(If you don’t know, that’s ok, just say so.)

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Actually, I believe neither. A “Jew” (according to scripture) is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and a Gentile is everyone else. All, Jew and Gentile, who believe in Christ are Christians and those Christians who are in full communion with the Catholic Church are Catholic. So, a Jew does not become a Gentile, nor does a Gentile become a Jew. However, there is no distinction between Jewish believer in Christ or Gentile believer in Christ in terms of salvation or means of salvation.

Gentiles believers were grafted into the Jewish rootstock - meaning the promises of God. Note that disbelieving Jews were grafted out - but Paul (i) warns that believing Gentiles can be broken off if they don’t persist in faith and (ii) Jews who have been broken out due to disbelief may be (will be per Romans 11) grafted in through belief.

It’s not that I’m unfamiliar with this so much as that I’ve never been able to make sense of it. So I beg your indulgence.

If Catholics (and perhaps non-Catholic Christians) are grafted into the Jewish and disbelieving Jews are grafted out that a) sounds very much like replacement theology, and b) suggests that the Church is Israel.

But you and I both speak in terms of Jews converting to Catholicism and there being a disbelieving Israel.

How can it make sense to speak of a Jewish Israel if believing gentiles have been grafted in and disbelieving Jews grafted out?

What is “Israel”?

You are correct - except we know from scripture, that while individual Jews will/have and will continue to come to faith in Christ over time, that Israel, as a collective, will remain in disbelief until the time of Jesus return. So there is no “risk” of Israel disappearing before Christ’s return. But the point you are making is often made by Torah observant messianic jews. I guess we will all find out some today (together )).

I guess different people place different bets. But this seems to be the critical difference between Hebrew Jews and Messianic Jews.

Have you read Salvation is From the Jews Schoeman?

There is a scriptural answer (never - as I noted above the definition of Jew and Gentile implied by scripture) and a rabbinic answer (in flux, but currently when one becomes a part of another religision - e.g., either profession of faith or baptism, depending upon which rabbi you ask). I’m not a label person - so I’m no offended by Jewish non-believers who insist on calling me a Christian and expressly not a Jew. I know what I am in God’s eyes according to His word. In any event, most importantly, I have peace, shalom and rest in my walk with Christ.

But what constitutes another religion? Has the term truly become meaningluess other than to mean not Catholic yet?

 

[Robbinson]

Hi Bubba:

Yes - this is all interesting and there are many different perspectives within, and without, the messianic jewis community on all of the issues you have raised.

I have read Roy’s book, Salvation is from the Jews, as well as many other books relating to the role of Judaism in our faith, and messianic judaism. Other books worthy of a read on this topic from various perspectives include (not limited to):

The Crucified Rabbi, T Marshall
Answering Jewish objections to Jesus (4 volms) - Michael Brown
Following Yeshua, Sam Nadler
Footsteps of the Messiah, Arnold Fruchtenbaum
Hebrew Christianity, Arnold Fruchtenbaum
How Jewish is Christianity, Gundry and Goldberg
Jesus Was a Jew, Arnold Fructenbaum
Messianic Wisdom, Sam Nadler
Search for the Messiah, Mark Eastman
To an Ancient People, the Authobiography of Rabbi Leopold Cohn.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, you gave a partial answer which was, essentially, that it is a matter of Jewish authority, not, you indicated earlier, individual identification.

Where did I say it was ‘individual identification’? (whatever you mean by that).

However, you did not answer the most critical question: who have Jewish authorities decided is and is not a Jew? What exactly is it that the Jewish authorities have determined causes one to cease being a Jew?

In what sense is it critical to you? The question of who is or is not Catholic is of great triviality to me.

There are plenty of resources on this and the various rows that go on about recognition of conversions etc (especially in the context of the Law of Return, or attendance at Jewish schools, of course). Do you really need me to do the job for you?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Where did I say it was ‘individual identification’? (whatever you mean by that).

Previously you claimed that Hebrew Catholics don’t profess to be Jewish.

In what sense is it critical to you? The question of who is or is not Catholic is of great triviality to me. There are plenty of resources on this and the various rows that go on about recognition of conversions etc (especially in the context of the Law of Return, or attendance at Jewish schools, of course). Do you really need me to do the job for you?

I’ve looked at the various claims and they make even less sense than replacement theology.

If you can’t make sense of them either then I guess we’re both in the same boat.

But as I noted previously, the only theory that makes sense is that a Jew is defined as someone who belives that Jesus was not the messiah.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes - this is all interesting and there are many different perspectives within, and without, the messianic jewis community on all of the issues you have raised.

I have read Roy’s book, Salvation is from the Jews, as well as many other books relating to the role of Judaism in our faith, and messianic judaism. Other books worthy of a read on this topic from various perspectives include (not limited to):

That’s a great list. Is there any one or two that you would recommend to me based on my questions?

 

[Kaninchen]

Previously you claimed that Hebrew Catholics don’t profess to be Jewish.

Please indicate the post.

But as I noted previously, the only theory that makes sense is that a Jew is defined as someone who belives that Jesus was not the messiah.

Rather like geocentric universe people who believe that the universe revolves around the earth, you consider Judaism exists purely in some sort of relationship to Christianity.

Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus, Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Please indicate the post.

Sorry, I confused you and Splinker:

Hebrew Catholics are not Jews. They do not profess to be Jews. They are usually Jews who have converted to Catholicsm and who choose to keep some Jewish traditions.

Rather like geocentric universe people who believe that the universe revolves around the earth, you consider Judaism exists purely in some sort of relationship to Christianity. Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus, Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus.

True, but there seems to be only one thing that get’s you kicked out of Judaism: believeing Jesus to be the Messiah.

Jews do not reject other Jews who are athiests or pantheists. Such Jews can still legally claim to be Jews and to return to Israel as such.

On the other hand, as we see with Messianic Jews, keeping the Torah is not what’s important. Messianc Jews do, secular Jews don’t. Guess which one is rejected?

So while there may be other minor details that distinguish practicing Jews and Christians, by Jewish law, there is only one difference that matters and everything else is ignored.

 

[Kaninchen]

True, but there seems to be only one thing that get’s you kicked out of Judaism: believeing Jesus to be the Messiah.

Stating “Ash hadu anlaa ilaaha illallaah” would work as well.

So while there may be other minor details that distinguish practicing Jews and Christians, by Jewish law, there is only one difference that matters and everything else is ignored.

It’s not ‘minor details’.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Stating “Ash hadu anlaa ilaaha illallaah” would work as well.

But not, apparently, “God is Dead” or “Moses was a mythical fiigure” or even “I’ll have a ham sandwich, please”.

It’s not ‘minor details’.

They are ignored for the purposes of determining who is a Jew.

 

[Kaninchen]

But not, apparently, “God is Dead” or “Moses was a mythical fiigure” or even “I’ll have a ham sandwich, please”.

It’s not joining another religion which has the intention of eliminating Judaism.

They are ignored for the purposes of determining who is a Jew.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It’s not joining another religion which has the intention of eliminating Judaism.

This begs the original question: what is Judaism? In what sense are atheists not eliminating Judaism? In what sense are those who regard Jewish history as myth not eliminating Judaism? In what sense are those who advocate the end of Torah Law not eliminating Judaism?

Also, insofar as Christianity is a Jewish sect, it certainly does not seek to eliminate Judaism. What, then, determines whether Christianity is a sect of Judaism or a different religion?

It’s also worth noting that one is not kicked out of Judaism for advocating the end of the modern state of Israel, as many ultra-orthodox and socialist Jews do.

They are ignored for the purposes of determining who is a Jew.

What do you mean by that?

The question can be boiled down to this: what is the test for being Jewish and when/how is it applied in practice?

One place that the test is practiced is when it is legally determined whether a person is a Jew for purpose of returning to Israel as a Jew. What are the issues that factor into that determination? Is it whether or not they are keeping Torah law? No. Is it whether or not they believe in a shared Jewish history? No. Is it whether they believe in God? No.

The issue also arises in determining admitance to Jewish schools, as was the case in a recent legal fight in England.

 

[Kaninchen]

This begs the original question:

You don’t get to determine which questions may, or may not, be begged.

Rowing about Judaism is what we do, it’s ‘Tradition’.

Also, insofar as Christianity is a Jewish sect,

That’s a huge Christianity-centric assumption, not a definition. You really do need to understand that the fact that you assume something is not a determining factor in other people accepting it.

The question can be boiled down to this: what is the test for being Jewish and when/how is it applied in practice?

You’re really labouring this - it’s a matter of halakhah.

One place that the test is practiced is when it is legally determined whether a person is a Jew for purpose of returning to Israel as a Jew. What are the issues that factor into that determination? Is it whether or not they are keeping Torah law? No. Is it whether or not they believe in a shared Jewish history? No. Is it whether they believe in God? No.

The issue also arises in determining admitance to Jewish schools, as was the case in a recent legal fight in England.

You’ll notice that I mentioned these issues as sources of discussions of ‘who is Jewish’ for you to follow up.