Mexican Catholicism... idolizes Our Lady of Guadalupe?

[Sherry_G]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism…

I’ve seen that type of devotion among Mexicans to some saints, such as St. Jude.
My sister-in-law is very anti-Catholic (even though she’s a craddle Catholic). She makes fun of my mother-in-law for having an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in her house. I respect her views as well as our fellos Mexican Catholics, but I don’t show that degree of devotion to Mary nor the saints. I respect them, ask for their intersession, but I don’t go to that extent…

Thank you for your answers!
En Cristo,
Pablo

Taking into account the historical record of the events during the time of the apparitions of Our Lady of Guadeloupe may help you have a better understanding of the devotion many Mexicans feel for Our Lady. To call it idolatry is incorrect. My son-in-law is Mexican and he honors Our Lady of Guadeloupe certainly, but not to an inordinate degree. Your sis in law seems very mean spirited, possibly due to her own sinful state. Pray for her instead of worrying about whether some take honoring the Blessed Virgin too far. I pray a rosary every day and ask Our Lady to intercede with her son for my son who is suffering. I wear a MiracluousMedal on the same chain with my Crucifix. I venerate Mary, not worship her. My Mexican in-laws also venerate Mary. It’s just that simple.

 

[cornbread_r2]

I don’t know how modern Mexicans regard OLG, but according to this article she may have originally been a syncretism of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin.

"Following the Spanish Conquest in 1519–21 a temple of the mother-goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City was destroyed and a chapel dedicated to the Virgin built on the site. Newly converted Indians continued to come from afar to worship there. The object of their worship, however, was equivocal, as they continued to address the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.

…]

Whatever the connection between the Mexican and her older Spanish namesake, the fused iconography of the Virgin and the indigenous Nahua goddess Tonantzin provided a way for 16th century Spaniards to gain converts among the indigenous population, while simultaneously allowing 16th century Mexicans to continue the practice of their native religion."

 

[po18guy]

One peasant, when asked why he was walking on his knees toward the image of our lady, said “You know, she is carrying Jesus”. Since we cannot (and must not) judge hearts, neither should we extrapolate from physical postures the content of their prayers. If Jesus loved her so much that He chose her and created her to be His mother (John 1:1-3), should we not affirm His judgment?

Explain how thinking too much of her is worse than thinking too little of her, or even worse, the modern tendency to make her common and disposable.

 

[Beati_Pacifici]

It seems to me like many anti-Catholics who would accuse Mexican Catholics of Marian worship would be very likely themselves of having a pseudo-altar dedicated to their favorite athlete. I say that because I happen to know a few people like that. The Mother of our Savior, to me, is hands down more important than an athlete.

But on a serious note. I personally do not see anything that I would call idolatry, but fanaticism, totally. As far as walking on knees is concerned, has anyone ever seen the extremely real reenactments of the Crucifixion that they do in the Philippines every year? It is amazing and touching that anyone would do that to their body in tribute.

 

[pnewton]

When I first became Catholic, extreme Marian devotion was one of the last things I came to grips with, particularly the writings of St. Louis de Montfort. I remember when this question came up on Catholic Answers radio, the person explaining the writings of this saint described the language as the language of love. True love sometimes uses exaggerative language. When we speak of a loved one, we may do so in terms that would be considered idolatry in any other context, as in, “worship the ground she walks on,” “she is my life,”, “my heart belongs to her.” Those who are able to connect with their love for Mary may express similar ideas. It is the language of love, not idolatry.

In the hispanic culture, the love of Mary seems exceptional strong, so one would expect that at times it might sound and appear to be idolatry. I think it best to give any hispanic person the benefit of the doubt in such expressions, while recognizing that, just as with any loved one, it is possible to raise such a one to an idol. It is not however inherent in the Catholicism, “Mexican” (whatever that means) or otherwise.

Let us not forget that it was Mary herself that choose to appear at Guadalupe, starting one of the greatest waves of evangelism since the first century.

 

[Cathryn]

“It should be noted that Catholics worship only God and the Holy Trinity. The three level hierarchy of latria, hyperdulia and dulia (which were discussed by both Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas) determines the appropriate type of worship and veneration for different situations. The term latria (from the Greek λατρεία, latreia) is used for worship, adoration and reverence directed only to the Holy Trinity. Dulia is the kind of honor given to the communion of saints, with the exception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is honored with hyperdulia. Thus hyperdulia is below latria and above dulia.” Catholic Encyclopedia

Hyperdulia is the term used for this special veneration of the Mother of God. It is not latria which is the adoration of God alone, yet is more than dulia which is the honor and veneration given to the saints. It is called hyperdulia.

It seems the people of Mexico have a very good understanding of heightened veneration being appropiate to Mary. Mary is the new Eve, the Queen of Heaven, and our Mother, and many more things if we believe the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary Approved by Pope Sixtus V in 1587

The faith of Mexico is because of Our Lady of Guadalupe pointing to her Son, who is God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Quite a few people addressing this probably come from either a cultural or a personal ‘style’ which is (in their mind) ‘rational’, moderate, even low-key and non demonstrative. That is their ‘norm’ and standard on which they base their perceptions of behavior.

To such a person, anything over and beyond their personal style or culture could (might) seem ‘excessive’.

Yet to a person who came from a cultural or personal style which is demonstrative, full-bodied, and sensual --in the idea of utilizing the senses, not in a sexual way only-- there probably would not be much that would be seen as ‘excessive’, and in fact, they might well perceive people who were NOT so demonstrative as ‘cold blooded, lacking in love or affection’.

Before we decide based on our own limited, finite cultural perceptions what people ‘ought to feel or do’ based on what WE think is right and acceptable, we need to understand that we don’t GET to decide this for others based solely on appearances.

 

[Mystrx]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism…

Pablo

That’s not fanaticism that’s pious demonstrative faith, specifically an act of penance. They are not worshiping Mary, what you see there is deep devotion to the woman they love for bringing Christ into this world. It is a stunning act of faith for God. We cherish and respect saints for there closeness to God not because they are gods. Mary is the greatest of saints.

 

[TimothyH]

First, for these fanatic displays to be idolatrous, the people doing them would actually have to think their actions are -worship-, not just veneration. Next, they would have to be praying to Mary herself to help them, as if she had some kind of power, instead of praying to her to ask for God’s help.
TrueLight;8832947:

You don’t know anyone who does this?

I do, every day.

I pray for Mary to protect me, to keep me safe under her mantle and vale, and to protect my children from sin and evil, and that she bring us close to her Son Jesus.

Mary is a Queen. Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth. She has real power and real authority, just like any other Queen, including the authority delegated to her by her son Jesus Christ the King to dispense grace from the treasury of grace which she has been entrusted with. And this she does according to her will. Of course her will is perfectly conformed to Christ’s will, but it is hers, and she uses it, and in so doing, dispenses grace to all of us as a merciful, kind, benevolent Queen.

And Mary is also our Mother. No one would say that Mother’s don’t have direct authority over their own children.

So yes, I pray directly to Mary, every day, and ask not only for her intercession, but her protection, guidance and continued presence in my life. Mary is a Queen, and she has been given tremendous power by Her Son, Jesus Christ the King. Christ is not a dictator, but a King, and he has many ministers in his court, both here on earth and in heaven, to which he has delegated authority.

-Tim-

 

[puzzleannie]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

I

no I have been involved in ministry to Hispanic,mainly Mexican, Catholics for over 10 years and can definitely say your are misinformed and misinterpreting what you have seen and heard. Just because other people may have external expressions of devotion and piety that put some of the rest of us to shame is no reason to accuse them of idolatry.

 

[faithfully]

I think anyone not Catholic will see what they want to see.

WHY ON EARTH would we not honor the mother, who truly WAS honorable, of our Lord! Even Christ honored her. I say if Christ thinks she’s worth honoring, the that’s what we do.

True story: My FIL went to Mexico on a biz trip. Apparently on a tour was taken to a Church where there was lots going on about Our Lady.

He calls and says… I got the kids a medal of “Our Lady Of Guadalupe”

I say… How nice, They don’t yet have a medal of Mary.

No… Not Mary. Our Lady of Guadalupe… She’s really important down here.

Me laughing. Yeah, She’s really important world wide. Just so you know… That’s Mary, the mother of God, they are talking about. He argued with me for a while. I just had to toss my hands in the air. Whatever you say.

He pretty much thinks the Catholic Church is nutz… but he’s always picking up Catholic items for me and our children. Which I think is nice. But after that, I kind of wonder if the Catholic part of it is an accident.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I can’t speak for the original poster who you are questioning, however from my vantagepoint, to use more current terms, I’d describe it as the Church being an early proponant of recycling.

Rather than discard the statues, they re-used them. They no longer were seen as images of former pagan gods and goddesses, but were re-dedicated to be examples of Christian Saints. So it was not a matter of converting the worship of Isis to the veneration of our Lady, but taking a piece of art that was originally a representation of Isis, and dropping the connotation or connection to Isis and repurposing it as a reminder of the Mother of God, Mary most holy.

It reminds me a little of St. Paul in the Acts of the Apostles, when he addressed the Athenians at the Areopagus ; [Acts 17:16-31] .

---

At St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal , it is not uncommon to see pilgrims ascending the stairs on their knees in prayer . And I have always thought it would be a rash judgement to call anything like that fanaticism. So , it appears, would those in charge of St. Joseph’s Oratory. There is a special set of wooden stairs reserved especially for pilgrims ascending on their knees. And it isn’t hidden off to the side somewhere it is right in the center, flanked by stairs on either side for the majority ascending on foot. ( Check out the pic at this link -in the winter months we all share these stairs, but as soon as the snow is gone , the signs go up again reserving that center stairway for pilgrims ascending on their knees ). { I guess that would make it double idolatry or *aggravated idolatry *because it was connected to St. Joseph first - as opposed to our Blessed Mother…}

One of the problems with calling Catholic pilgrims on their knees fanatics , is that it is judging from outward appearances alone. Yet we are reminded, right there in today’s readings from *1 Samuel *, “… the LORD sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.”

I can’t help but chuckle, finding it to be somewhat of an effort in futility - to think we know what is going on in the minds of others , while we can’t even completely figure out what is going on in our own minds half of the time.

Our Lady of Guadalupe is the ***Patroness/Protectress of the Unborn ***. Considering that between 40 and 50 million abortions are being performed worldwide annually ( over one million nine hundred thousand children slain in their mothers wombs already since January 1, 2012 ) it wouldn’t seem like the brightest idea to be disouraging any devotion to Her .

 

[Topaz1128]

Good luck with that question!

You will find maybe 2-3 Catholic CAF members out hundreds who will ever admit that Marian devotion can be taken so far by a small minority, that it borders on idolatry.

I would happen to fall into that group of 2 or 3.

 

[pabloSD]

Thank you all for your comments! I’m learning so much!

By the way, I am a Mexican Catholic, so I’ve seen first hand a lot of what you’ve mentioned in your comments. The main reason why I made this question is because I was wondering if what I’m doing (respecting, honoring Mary), is typical. It seems that in my experience, most Catholics I know are very devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe, but I’m not…

I mean, I love the image: I grew up with an image of it in my room, and even to this day my wife and I have one in our bedroom, since it was a gift on our wedding night.

To tell you the truth, I didn’t start to feel “this way” (that is, sometimes feeling that many turn Her into a goddess) until after I was around Mormons and protestants. Before that, less than two years ago, I never felt this way.

En Cristo,
Pablo

 

[po18guy]

no I have been involved in ministry to Hispanic,mainly Mexican, Catholics for over 10 years and can definitely say your are misinformed and misinterpreting what you have seen and heard. Just because other people may have external expressions of devotion and piety that put some of the rest of us to shame is no reason to accuse them of idolatry.

Great point. By way of example, levitation is associated with the supernatural, both the saintly as well as the demonic. It is when one conflates one with the other that trouble arises. I think that is the problem here - one of perception. From another thread, it appears that the OP is working his way through the physical appearances associated with a much deeper spirituality than he might have experienced elsewhere.

 

[Mintaka]

Walking on your knees isn’t that bad, folks, unless you’re bare-legged or you’re on an extremely rough surface. I did the Way of the Cross on my knees one year in church (nobody else was around, and I was wearing stretchy pants that were fairly tough). Given that I’m somewhat overweight and unathletic, and still didn’t manage to hurt my knees, I think we can say that it’s a reasonably entrance level form of asceticism.

Moving along… there’s a difference between being a reserved person who’s not into dramatic emotional religious actions, and being made to feel that something is wrong and bad and pagan about your own friends and family’s actions, even though they’re normal for Catholics in one’s culture.

I spent only a couple or three weeks in a “nondenominational” prayer group one year with lots of Protestants, and it messed me up something fierce. They were open to every form of prayer except anything Catholic, and any kind of scriptural interpretation except Catholic ones. It was no more nondenominational than the Man in the Moon. It took me years to shake it off entirely (not to mention the anger at what they’d tried to do to me), but I felt a thousand times better when I did. Learning more about Catholic theology and practice, and the wide range of historical expressions of it – that was what helped me.

Historically, Mexican Catholic saints and holy people have included both reserved people and expressive people. You have plenty of models for both styles, and a history of endurance in Christ that many countries should envy.

Now, if you want to worry about idolatry, stuff like the “narcosaints”, the occult religion of Death, and some of the weirder bits of folk religion are where I’d look. Mexicans haven’t gone nearly as far in devotion to Mary as, say, the Byzantine Empire. There’s a lot of room to move.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you all for your comments! I’m learning so much!

By the way, I am a Mexican Catholic, so I’ve seen first hand a lot of what you’ve mentioned in your comments. The main reason why I made this question is because I was wondering if what I’m doing (respecting, honoring Mary), is typical. It seems that in my experience, most Catholics I know are very devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe, but I’m not…

I mean, I love the image: I grew up with an image of it in my room, and even to this day my wife and I have one in our bedroom, since it was a gift on our wedding night.

To tell you the truth, I didn’t start to feel “this way” (that is, sometimes feeling that many turn Her into a goddess) until after I was around Mormons and protestants. Before that, less than two years ago, I never felt this way.

En Cristo,
Pablo

Pablo, both the LDS and protestants of all varieties must have anti-Catholicism as part of their DNA, if for no other reason than to justify their separation from the Catholic Church. Think of this: during exorcisms, Priests note that demons will curse and insult all who are present - the Priest, the family, even God Himself. But not Mary. Never. There’s a reason for that, and it is found in Genesis 3. There is enmity between Mary and all evil. You and I have no control over who our mother is. Jesus did. Mary is a created being, like each of us, but created pure by Jesus (John 1:1-3) as His own mother. Our focus is on Mary’s purity, and her intercessory power with her Son.

From Luke 1:32, we know that the Father has given Jesus the throne of His ancestor, David. What else do we know about that throne? From 1 Kings 1:30, we know that Solomon inherited the throne from his father David. OK, so? Well, from 1 Kings 2:18-19, we see Solomon installed a seat to the right of the throne for his mother, Bathsheba, and that Bathsheba interceded with the king on behalf of others. If Jesus is seated on that throne, who is in Bathsheba’s seat? Bingo!

 

[Mintaka]

Re: poster who said pagan Greek and Roman statues have been used as statues of Mary

I don’t know where you got this, but it’s a very odd idea.

In Greek and Roman areas in early Christian times, most images of Mary seem to have been new, Christian-made paintings or mosaics or other “flat” pictures. This was explicitly to avoid confusion with pagan statues. Later on, when the Empire had been Christian for three centuries or so, the West did begin to have more statues, primarily in areas where Roman paganism hadn’t hung on. Greek areas started having them, but within a century, most of the new Christian-made statues (in the Greek areas, not the rest of the world) were destroyed by the Iconoclasts (Christians whose theology was under Muslim and/or Jewish influence), who also went around destroying many of the religious pictures, tapestries, icons, et al. (And of course Muslims in conquest areas like Persia destroyed their art, but you knew that. The really big loss was Edessa’s statue of Christ, which was said in the earliest Christian times to have been carved from life, or at least made in the same style as the Mandylion. You can read about it in Eusebius, I think.)

After the Iconoclasts were defeated and there was no more executions of little old lady nuns for having pictures, and so much priceless Christian art had been destroyed, Greek Christians went back to avoiding statues. But considering that they went so big on the theology of icons, claiming stuff about icons that Western folks don’t normally even approach when talking about miraculous statues, it’s hilarious how nobody is ever bothered by icons as “graven images” anymore. (Except Muslims.) But given all the trouble they went through, I’m not gonna complain about it.

Anyway… in Western areas during medieval and Renaissance times, I have heard vaguely that there were a few, few, individual instances when somebody found a Roman or Greek statue, and decided that it was probably an old Mary or female saint statue which had been buried to make it safe. Since the West did have early Christian statues carved in that kind of style, and since some statues of Roman matrons have them dressed in a modest stola or other sorts of dress one sees in early Christian pictures of saints, this was a logical conclusion. They couldn’t exactly call up an art history expert, if they were living up in the mountains of Italy or something. This was not a matter of deliberate repurposing or takeover, but rather of erroneous identification.

In any case, I don’t think I’ve ever seen specific statues named or pictured, so it may just be an urban legend of academia, or some kind of scholarly theory turned into a false factoid.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

No.

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism…

Ever been to Fatima or Lourdes? It’s not just at the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe where the faithful walk on their knees and perform other physically difficult tasks as a sign of their devotion.

If it doesn’t seem right to you, don’t do it.

I’ve seen that type of devotion among Mexicans to some saints, such as St. Jude.

And I’ve seen it among Chinese, Filipino, American, Thai, Malay, and French Catholics. Mexicans don’t have the market on saint devotions cornered. My own German Catholic grandfather’s work truck was a veritable shrine on wheels to St. Joseph the Worker.

My sister-in-law is very anti-Catholic (even though she’s a craddle Catholic). She makes fun of my mother-in-law for having an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in her house.

Your sister-in-law is very disrespectful towards her elders. You should not let her uncouthness undermine your Catholic beliefs or denigrate your mother-in-law’s devotion to OLG in your eyes.

…but I don’t show that degree of devotion to Mary nor the saints. I respect them, ask for their intersession, but I don’t go to that extent…

And nor do you have to. It’s a personal preference.

Luna

 

[LayingHands]

Are you saying they transferred their Goddess worship to our Mother?

Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying, futhermore, it is part of Greek’s written history…