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Tomdstone
Guest
What poor choices are you talking about? Are you anti-life and wish that his children had not been born?
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ishii
Guest
What did I say that makes you think I’m anti life? How is saying that people should take responsibility for their choices anti life? If your only ambition in life is to be a burger flipper them perhaps you might want to re think having lots of kids that you won’t be able to support.
Ishii
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Tomdstone
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ucfengr
Guest
Having children that you have no capacity or intention to provide for is a poor choice. Parents have responsibilities to their children. If they are unable to fulfill those responsibilities than having children is a poor choice.
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pnewton
Guest
No subject will bring out the “American” of American Catholicism quite like money.
As I said earlier, all opinions of a Catholic should come from morality. In this case, both the right to ownership of property and the universal destination of all goods. The larger the wealth gap, the more we are out of balance in favor of the former. I do not know the best course (I think no one does), but I do not doubt that a incremental increase in the minimum wage needs to be one component.
As I said earlier, all opinions of a Catholic should come from morality. In this case, both the right to ownership of property and the universal destination of all goods. The larger the wealth gap, the more we are out of balance in favor of the former. I do not know the best course (I think no one does), but I do not doubt that a incremental increase in the minimum wage needs to be one component.
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Tomdstone
Guest
You do the best you can with the resources that you have. I do not think it is a poor choice to be pro-life.
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ishii
Guest
I criticized the person in your hypothetical for making poor choices - which led to him having to provide for multiple children with a minimum wage job. Maybe his poor choices were not studying in school or learning a skill that would help him get a better paying job.
But - you have accused me of being anti life. I still want you to tell me what I said that was anti life or take it back.
Ishii
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ishii
Guest
So anyone who disagrees with pnewton on minimum wage is not Catholic but an “American catholic” and presumably less than an authentic catholic. What an unfortunate way to discuss this issue and a total ad hominem.
Why would anyone accused of being less than catholic even continue discussing the issue?
Such tactics poison the debate.
Ishii
meltzerboy
New member
Not at all? There isn’t any minimum wage for (most) waiters and waitresses, I believe. Some get paid, I think, about $1.00 per hour and the rest of their income depends on tips. And just look how well off they are?!
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ishii
Guest
Oh I think waiters get minimum wage. But that is it for base pay. They also get tips. It is one of the few jobs where people with little skills or education can make decent money. Of course perhaps not the best career choice for a father with 6 children insisting on living in an expensive city.
Ishii
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estesbob
Guest
They have a lower minimum wage but if their tips don’t bring them up to standard minimum wage the employer has to make up the diff
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Robert_Bay
Guest
MODERATOR REMINDER
Charitably discuss the issues, not each other
Charitably discuss the issues, not each other
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Tomdstone
Guest
IMHO, I would not criticize the father of Cardinal Ottaviani who was a laborer and the fear of having more children never entered his mind, because he trusted in God.
“Cardinal Ottaviani spoke on the following day. ‘I am not pleased,’ he said, ‘with the statement in the text that married couples may determine the number of children they are to have. Never has this been heard of in the Church.’ He was the eleventh son in a family of twelve children, he said. ‘My father was a laborer, and the fear of having many children never entered my parents’ minds, because they trusted in providence.’” (Fr. Ralph M. Wiltgen, S.V.D., The Rhine flows into the Tiber- A History of Vatican II. Tan Books, 1985, p. 269.)
Large families on small income may find a way to get along without starving to death, but it is not that easy to do so on the minimum wage. It is difficult to support a family of 12 children on a meager income of $400 per week. The rent for the apartment alone can take away most of that. Then you have the medical and clothing. I suppose the family could survive by drinking water and eating boiled potatoes, but even bread and salad may be out of their financial reach? To pay a working father the minimum wage is brutally unfair. In the USA, there are CEO’s making millions of dollars, while the poor slave away and just barely avoid starvation at the starvation wages being paid to so many working fathers. The time has come to show mercy to the poor.
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pnewton
Guest
I would note that China has dealt with the problem of excessively large families quite well. The question a Catholic should ask, is how can the problem of need be addressed without violating the Catholic mandate that we be open to life. “Don’t have children if you can’t afford them” is something not bishops said, ever.
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ishii
Guest
I believe Pope Francis recently said the following: " ‘God gives you methods to be responsible,’ he continued. ‘Some think that — excuse the word — that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No.’ "
Is Pope Francis, “anti-life” ?
The Church has never said that families need to have the most children possible. In fact, it recognizes the need for some to limit the size of the family when necessary. And this can be done by NFP, etc. There are ways to limit the size which are in line with Catholic teaching.
I think its a stretch to conflate the China one -child policy of forced abortions, with someone whose only sin is to disagree with pnewton on minimum wage. Regarding your last comment, note what Pope Francis said:
"Telling the story of a woman he met in a parish in Rome several months ago who had given birth to seven children via cesarean section and was pregnant with an eighth, Francis asked: ‘Does she want to leave the seven orphans?’
" ‘This is to tempt God,’ he said, adding later: ‘That is an irresponsibility.’ Catholics, the pope said, should speak of ‘responsible parenthood.’
" ‘How do we do this?’ Francis asked. ‘With dialogue. Each person with his pastor seeks how to do that responsible parenthood.’
" ‘God gives you methods to be responsible,’ he continued. ‘Some think that — excuse the word — that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No.’ "
npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/20/378559550/pope-francis-says-catholics-dont-need-to-breed-like-rabbits
One can disagree on the minimum wage issue and remain faithful Catholics.
Ishii
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CaptFun
Guest
Nice sentiments from the Bishop.
Is the Miami Diocese employing anyone at the present minimum wage rate … or by example anticipating what the just amount would be for that person to live at the just level and paying them accordingly?
And if that is the case (I have no idea what the case is there), surely those being paid a bit more than the minimum wage … both the Government one and the Diocesan “more just” one … ought to similarly be recompensed per percentage or it works to the end of a de facto demotion TO the “minimum wage” level. And so on up the line.
Layoffs should not happen at such an inspirationally run Diocese … for THAT would be even more unjust and create greater hardships for the people who USED to have a “less than justly paid wage job” or even the USED to have a “fairly paid job” … per the human hardship it would cause.
I have seen layoffs in Catholic Dioceses. Quite a big one some years ago in Los Angeles, CA where a certain socially crusading prelate (now Cardinal Emeritus due to advanced age) with many a righteous pronouncement aimed at local, state and federal governments, businesspeople and the general public nonetheless sent a lot of lay employees packing whilst administering the business of the Diocese.
To be sure this is not coveting anyone’s goods here. That would violate a commandment somewhere possibly. It’s probably just an appeal to peoples’ good will.
Besides, good counsel remains so even if the counselor doesn’t happen to be visibly or obviously living up to the lofty standards called for in the counsel.
AND … such may very well be being done quietly and privately
(for the left hand ideally doesn’t need to know what the right hand is doing when it comes to charity, generosity or justice).
In conclusion, to best echo the archbishops’ idealistic counsel … I will further counsel that our church leaders, financially, cast the first raises.
And personally, there is no need for Catholic Answers to recompense me at all for all my work researching, typing, and posting takes like this. I donate them. Multiply any cost of living wages times zero in my case if you will.
Is snarky smugness a venial sin? Is confessing that here coming close to humility? :nope: While I ponder that … I will now cease. The Church leading by example where it can is yet IMO a better way to communicate love of neighbor, and employee, than casting about with unsolicited political directives that recommend doing things that the writer or speaker – MAY not be doing in their own area of management.
Is the Miami Diocese employing anyone at the present minimum wage rate … or by example anticipating what the just amount would be for that person to live at the just level and paying them accordingly?
And if that is the case (I have no idea what the case is there), surely those being paid a bit more than the minimum wage … both the Government one and the Diocesan “more just” one … ought to similarly be recompensed per percentage or it works to the end of a de facto demotion TO the “minimum wage” level. And so on up the line.
Layoffs should not happen at such an inspirationally run Diocese … for THAT would be even more unjust and create greater hardships for the people who USED to have a “less than justly paid wage job” or even the USED to have a “fairly paid job” … per the human hardship it would cause.
I have seen layoffs in Catholic Dioceses. Quite a big one some years ago in Los Angeles, CA where a certain socially crusading prelate (now Cardinal Emeritus due to advanced age) with many a righteous pronouncement aimed at local, state and federal governments, businesspeople and the general public nonetheless sent a lot of lay employees packing whilst administering the business of the Diocese.
To be sure this is not coveting anyone’s goods here. That would violate a commandment somewhere possibly. It’s probably just an appeal to peoples’ good will.
Besides, good counsel remains so even if the counselor doesn’t happen to be visibly or obviously living up to the lofty standards called for in the counsel.
AND … such may very well be being done quietly and privately
(for the left hand ideally doesn’t need to know what the right hand is doing when it comes to charity, generosity or justice).In conclusion, to best echo the archbishops’ idealistic counsel … I will further counsel that our church leaders, financially, cast the first raises.
And personally, there is no need for Catholic Answers to recompense me at all for all my work researching, typing, and posting takes like this. I donate them. Multiply any cost of living wages times zero in my case if you will.
Is snarky smugness a venial sin? Is confessing that here coming close to humility? :nope:
While I ponder that … I will now cease. The Church leading by example where it can is yet IMO a better way to communicate love of neighbor, and employee, than casting about with unsolicited political directives that recommend doing things that the writer or speaker – MAY not be doing in their own area of management.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
To whatever extent low wages for some jobs are properly to be considered problematic from a moral standpoint, one has to wonder whether increasing the minimum wages is perhaps a bit like thinking the way to cure all febrile diseases is to pack the patient in ice for a time, then declare him “cured” when his temperature reaches 98.6 and then go on to the next patient who has a fever.
If, in a system in which competition for goods and services determines the cost of goods and services, (and all systems do, in one way or another) is governmental compulsion to pay more than what a willing “buyer” is willing to pay going to do anything more than distort the pricing and cause less “buying”?
If the government decreed that no car could sell for less than $50,000.00, that would be the end of the used car trade and eliminate production of many a model of new cars. Pricing by fiat doesn’t have a good track record, as was learned in the early part of the Depression. Government, alarmed at deflation, decreed prices and wages, with a resulting decrease in both goods and services and a worsening of the Depression.
And if we don’t think low wages are a good thing, then what, other than state compulsion, ought to be done about it?
The current government does a great number of things that supress job creation (and thus competition for labor). It also increases competition for jobs through open immigration. And so, if McDonald’s finds plenty of young people willing to take minimum wage jobs, and some older people unable to find anything else, is reducing the demand for those workers (as increasing the pricing is bound to do) the answer, or is there something else that would address the issue better?
If, in a system in which competition for goods and services determines the cost of goods and services, (and all systems do, in one way or another) is governmental compulsion to pay more than what a willing “buyer” is willing to pay going to do anything more than distort the pricing and cause less “buying”?
If the government decreed that no car could sell for less than $50,000.00, that would be the end of the used car trade and eliminate production of many a model of new cars. Pricing by fiat doesn’t have a good track record, as was learned in the early part of the Depression. Government, alarmed at deflation, decreed prices and wages, with a resulting decrease in both goods and services and a worsening of the Depression.
And if we don’t think low wages are a good thing, then what, other than state compulsion, ought to be done about it?
The current government does a great number of things that supress job creation (and thus competition for labor). It also increases competition for jobs through open immigration. And so, if McDonald’s finds plenty of young people willing to take minimum wage jobs, and some older people unable to find anything else, is reducing the demand for those workers (as increasing the pricing is bound to do) the answer, or is there something else that would address the issue better?
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ishii
Guest
It could be argued that raising the minimum wage is anti-worker, to the extent that it will result in fewer entry level / low skilled jobs. I am amazed at some of the posts here on this thread - calling opposition to raising the minimum wage “anti-life” and even going to the extent of comparing it to China’s one child policy and suggesting that anyone who differs on the issue is a lesser “American” Catholic.
I wonder what they will do when businesses start automating and cutting down on hours/jobs, etc. due to the higher costs associated with the minimum wage? I suppose with some what matters is the intention and not the result. I am fine with someone who wants to raise the minimum wage. I will however, refrain from calling them radical communists. I would appreciate them not calling me an anti-life “American” catholic.
It would be nice to have a civil debate without the name-calling and demonizations.
Ishii
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estesbob
Guest
Its always easy to be charitable with other peoples money.
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
Unfortunately, there are always going to be jobs at the bottom of the ladder and it doesn’t matter if we require them to be paid $5, $10 or $15 an hour, they are always going to be at the bottom. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to stock shelves, or count money.
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