Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[Ridgerunner]

Unfortunately, there are always going to be jobs at the bottom of the ladder and it doesn’t matter if we require them to be paid $5, $10 or $15 an hour, they are always going to be at the bottom. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to stock shelves, or count money.

True. But again, if somehow or other it’s “wrong” to have bottom wages where they are, is that the “disease” or just a “symptom”. Seems to me raising the minimum wage is “treating a symptom” if, indeed, there is really something wrong with having any wage paying $7./hour or whatever it is in any particular place.

What is the “disease”? Is it the fact that people will both pay and charge what the market will bear for goods and services? Are prices, therefore, too low? And if it is, where does the “fiat-ing” stop? Is the “moral” inflation rate perhaps 10%/year? Is it 100% per month?

Do those who support a minimum wage on “moral” grounds think about such things? I have a feeling they don’t.

 

[meltzerboy]

True. But again, if somehow or other it’s “wrong” to have bottom wages where they are, is that the “disease” or just a “symptom”. Seems to me raising the minimum wage is “treating a symptom” if, indeed, there is really something wrong with having any wage paying $7./hour or whatever it is in any particular place.

What is the “disease”? Is it the fact that people will both pay and charge what the market will bear for goods and services? Are prices, therefore, too low? And if it is, where does the “fiat-ing” stop? Is the “moral” inflation rate perhaps 10%/year? Is it 100% per month?

Do those who support a minimum wage on “moral” grounds think about such things? I have a feeling they don’t.

Those who believe that the minimum wage should be raised say that the ‘disease’ is greed on the part of some business owners who are unwilling to pay their workers a fair share of the profits. Greed is built into the capitalist system. It is the age-old conflict between management and employee: employers want their employees to work harder and do a better job, which is reasonable, but they are, at the same time, unwilling to compensate them for their hard work with a fair and living wage. This is why unions have been and still are so necessary to ensure a fair wage as well as safe and just working conditions.

 

[estesbob]

Those who believe that the minimum wage should be raised say that the ‘disease’ is greed on the part of some business owners who are unwilling to pay their workers a fair share of the profits. Greed is built into the capitalist system. It is the age-old conflict between management and employee: employers want their employees to work harder and do a better job, which is reasonable, but they are, at the same time, unwilling to compensate them for their hard work with a fair and living wage. This is why unions have been and still are so necessary to ensure a fair wage as well as safe and just working conditions.

Of course unions succumb to greed also leading businesses to move overseas and increase automation . If a $15 minimum wage was to be put into effect nationwide you would soon see no counter employees in any fast food restaurant in the country. What good is a high minimum wage to the unemployed?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Those who believe that the minimum wage should be raised say that the ‘disease’ is greed on the part of some business owners who are unwilling to pay their workers a fair share of the profits. Greed is built into the capitalist system. It is the age-old conflict between management and employee: employers want their employees to work harder and do a better job, which is reasonable, but they are, at the same time, unwilling to compensate them for their hard work with a fair and living wage. This is why unions have been and still are so necessary to ensure a fair wage as well as safe and just working conditions.

One would think if unions were that necessary, their numbers wouldn’t be shrinking.

But is it fair to use the term greed, and is greed really exclusive to capitalism? The history of other systems speaks mightily against that proposition. Broadly speaking, every transaction is motivated by “greed” if, by “greed” one means “gain”. I think both Augustine and Aquinas put it well in defining a “just transaction”. In a just transaction, each party gives that which he values less for that which he values more. Everybody, in every transaction, seeks to do that. And if a system will not allow a person to advance himself through his own efforts, it forces him to attempt to do it politically,(force) thus distorting the direction of every effort away from real productivity.

How did Russians under the Soviet system put it? “As long as they pretend to pay us, we’ll pretend to work.” So how do employers at McDonalds’ franchises get their people to do anything other than “pretend” to work? Why are those places clean? Why is the service almost invariably crisp and friendly? If you look at the workers, you can see it. At least around here, they’re all either very young or pretty old, all except the managers. The managers work for a pretty low wage, but they’re also the trainees for franchises of their own; if not with McDonald’s, then with Burger King or some other outfit.

They are not “pretending” to work because they are getting that which they value more for that which they value less. It’s not all today’s wage that they’re working for.

I doubt it’s unusual where I live. There are virtually no unions at all, and attempts to unionize invariably fail to get sufficient votes. Why? Because workers are in short supply; seriously short supply, and it’s pervasive at nearly all levels. If a person has any kind of talent or work ethic at all, he might not earn a “living wage” at first, but he soon will. And he won’t be earning minimum wage either, unless he’s a kid who is just earning money for college or a retiree who wants a little extra pocket money but has no ambitions whatever beyond that.

And one should never denigrate that entry-level, minimum wage job. Ask some kid who wants to go to college or just to get some better job. They’ll all tell you their resume looks better with SOMETHING on it than nothing. And if they’re young, and low-wage jobs are on that resume, at least the potential next employer knows the kid will work. There’s value in that, and any kid with a brain will tell you there is.

So how do we measure “value” then when it comes to jobs? Do we look no further than the immediate wage? If we did, lots of people, including professionals, would wonder why they spent so much time, effort and money getting their educations. Value is more than that.

 

[Tomdstone]

If a $15 minimum wage was to be put into effect nationwide you would soon see no counter employees in any fast food restaurant in the country.

No counter employees in any fast food restaurant?
I doubt that.
I think that is an unsupported scare tactic oftentimes used by those who are reluctant to pay a fair living wage to families who are on the brink of starvation.

 

[estesbob]

No counter employees in any fast food restaurant?
I doubt that.
I think that is an unsupported scare tactic oftentimes used by those who are reluctant to pay a fair living wage to families who are on the brink of starvation.

Happening already. Touchpad can take you order just as easy as a living person and doesn’t cost you $15 an hour .

cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/#!

 

[ishii]

Happening already. Touchpad can take you order just as easy as a living person and doesn’t cost you $15 an hour .

cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/#!

Exactly.

No counter employees in any fast food restaurant?
I doubt that.
I think that is an unsupported scare tactic oftentimes used by those who are reluctant to pay a fair living wage to families who are on the brink of starvation.

Those clamoring for a $15 minimum wage are partly responsible for the loss of entry level jobs which that wage will cause. If you think its hard to make ends meet with a minimum wage job, try making ends meet with no job at all.

Ishii

 

[CaptFun]

Happening already. Touchpad can take you order just as easy as a living person and doesn’t cost you $15 an hour .

cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/#!

There was ONE guy at my gas station when I last went. Didn’t come to my car, ask to check my oil or tires, wipe my windshield, or give me a free baseball poster (like I remember THESE guys used to do).

Inflation being what it’s been since THOSE days, the one guy is probably making more than the four did together in actual dollars – but maybe less per cost of living.

Even though “today guy” just sits at a counter ringing up SOME gas sales (and candy, pop, and lottery ticket sales) … he may make more than minimum wage.

Maybe not though. If someone stole from the till … HE would be the (only) suspect … so even paying more than minimum … whatever that might be … isn’t guaranteed per security risk considerations. Hmm.

I still say the Archbishop should lead the way by example. If he isn’t already … why speak. If he IS already … did he always? If he hasn’t always … speak a little more softly and to the employers themselves (why sic the government on employers while you are wearing a clerical collar? Bishops serve a master that gives counsel but allows for free will).

Well, they should serve. Like the rest of us they need confession once in a while.

*PS: That last sentence was “general” and not specifically a snark toward THIS Bishop. *

 

[stinkcat_14]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/35/bc/20/35bc2016b7daff0a167c1a0e466f141d.jpg

There was ONE guy at my gas station when I last went. Didn’t come to my car, ask to check my oil or tires, wipe my windshield, or give me a free baseball poster (like I remember THESE guys used to do).

Inflation being what it’s been since THOSE days, the one guy is probably making more than the four did together in actual dollars – but maybe less per cost of living.

Even though “today guy” just sits at a counter ringing up SOME gas sales (and candy, pop, and lottery ticket sales) … he may make more than minimum wage.

Maybe not though. If someone stole from the till … HE would be the (only) suspect … so even paying more than minimum … whatever that might be … isn’t guaranteed per security risk considerations. Hmm.

I still say the Archbishop should lead the way by example. If he isn’t already … why speak. If he IS already … did he always? If he hasn’t always … speak a little more softly and to the employers themselves (why sic the government on employers while you are wearing a clerical collar? Bishops serve a master that gives counsel but allows for free will).

Well, they should serve. Like the rest of us they need confession once in a while.

*PS: That last sentence was “general” and not specifically a snark toward THIS Bishop. *

This may be true, but it is not because of the minimum wage. In my area, gas stations have a shortage of workers because most of them have signs up looking for workers and the starting wage rate is above minimum wage. The main reason we see fewer people working at gas stations is because we are not willing to pay a premium to have someone pump our gas.

 

[pnewton]

And if we don’t think low wages are a good thing, then what, other than state compulsion, ought to be done about it?

I think that is a good question. Market solutions are always better, though they are not always available. I think we need to not hold to them exclusively though, as the Church has opposed both communism and unrestricted capitalism. Yet, I can agree that the more we can encourage the better.

 

[ishii]

I think that is a good question. Market solutions are always better, though they are not always available. I think we need to not hold to them exclusively though, as the Church has opposed both communism and unrestricted capitalism. Yet, I can agree that the more we can encourage the better.

This is often brought up - that the Church opposes both communism and unrestricted capitalism. But when pressed to name a country that has unrestricted capitalism they cannot do so. Where is unrestricted capitalism practiced ? (obviously this isn’t posed to pnewton, but to anyone on the forum interested in chiming in).

Ishii

 

[outremer]

If you oppose the minimum wage, then promote ways to substantially lower the cost of living.

Offer solutions, not just bumper sticker slogans! Otherwise, most people will brush aside libertarian criticisms and continue to vote for minimum wage increases.

 

[ishii]

If you oppose the minimum wage, then promote ways to substantially lower the cost of living.

Offer solutions, not just bumper sticker slogans! Otherwise, most people will brush aside libertarian criticisms and continue to vote for minimum wage increases.

You mean oppose raising the minimum wage?

The best way to rise above minimum wage jobs (which are not intended to support families) is to learn a job skill that gets you beyond entry level wages. Of course - many are perfectly happy earning minimum wage as supplemental income or as a first job. You have to start somewhere.

If you are for increasing the minimum wage, then tell us how you’d help those who are laid off because business (smaller businesses) cannot afford to pay the higher wages. What’s the answer, more foodstamps?

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

If you oppose the minimum wage, then promote ways to substantially lower the cost of living.

Offer solutions, not just bumper sticker slogans! Otherwise, most people will brush aside libertarian criticisms and continue to vote for minimum wage increases.

Better yet provide jobs for people! That’s what Ive done.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Imagine for a moment two 19 year old high school grads applying for a $15/hour-to-start industrial job with benefits after three months. One has on his resume that he worked three summers for McDonald’s and has a letter of recommendation from the McDonald’s store manager. The other can’t produce either.

All other things being equal, who gets the industrial job?

Likewise imagine a 66 year old woman who is drawing social security and a small pension from her former employer, and who wants a part time job for a little extra money and for the activity and social exposure. She has a touch of osteoarthritis and can stand working two days/week, but not any more than that. Is she going to get hired by anybody other than McDonald’s? And will she be happier putting in two days or evenings at McDonald’s or sitting at home 100% of the time without the extra spending money?

I don’t know who really has plans to work a lifetime waiting on the counter at McDonald’s. The only people I ever see there and in places like it are very young people or people who will never see age 50 again.

I really don’t think those who want minimum wage hikes have any idea how much in demand a fit, 19-40 year old worker really is, if the worker is presentable and doesn’t have a criminal record, needle tracks on his arm or “meth mouth”.

 

[meltzerboy]

Imagine for a moment two 19 year old high school grads applying for a $15/hour-to-start industrial job with benefits after three months. One has on his resume that he worked three summers for McDonald’s and has a letter of recommendation from the McDonald’s store manager. The other can’t produce either.

All other things being equal, who gets the industrial job?

Likewise imagine a 66 year old woman who is drawing social security and a small pension from her former employer, and who wants a part time job for a little extra money and for the activity and social exposure. She has a touch of osteoarthritis and can stand working two days/week, but not any more than that. Is she going to get hired by anybody other than McDonald’s? And will she be happier putting in two days or evenings at McDonald’s or sitting at home 100% of the time without the extra spending money?

I don’t know who really has plans to work a lifetime waiting on the counter at McDonald’s. The only people I ever see there and in places like it are very young people or people who will never see age 50 again.

I really don’t think those who want minimum wage hikes have any idea how much in demand a fit, 19-40 year old worker really is, if the worker is presentable and doesn’t have a criminal record, needle tracks on his arm or “meth mouth”.

There are middle-aged single parents who are also poor and may not be able to transition (nothing sexual intended here) to a more lucrative job, but who are also looking for full-time employment to support their families.That appears to be the scenario you have NOT imagined and therefore omitted. How do you know the person on the far side of 50 is not one of these? Some of these people, who may be returning to the workforce after several years out of necessity, are now victims of both age discrimination and a resume that consists mainly of being a homemaker, and must therefore settle for a low-paying full-time job or else juggle two part-time jobs to make ends meet. For them, it is not a matter of career advancement but survival for themselves and their families. This kind of situation is not all that unusual, particularly in large cities where the cost-of-living has skyrocketed. For many middle-aged and elderly people, it is not a question of a little extra discretionary income or a supplementary income in a two-parent household; rather, this kind of minimum-wage job is all they have going even without a criminal record or needle tracks in their arm.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There are middle-aged single parents who are also poor and may not be able to transition (nothing sexual intended here) to a more lucrative job, but who are also looking for full-time employment to support their families.That appears to be the scenario you have NOT imagined and therefore omitted. How do you know the person on the far side of 50 is not one of these? Some of these people, who may be returning to the workforce after several years out of necessity, are now victims of both age discrimination and a resume that consists mainly of being a homemaker, and must therefore settle for a low-paying full-time job or else juggle two part-time jobs to make ends meet. For them, it is not a matter of career advancement but survival for themselves and their families. This kind of situation is not all that unusual, particularly in large cities where the cost-of-living has skyrocketed. For many middle-aged and elderly people, it is not a question of a little extra discretionary income or a supplementary income in a two-parent household; rather, this kind of minimum-wage job is all they have going even without a criminal record or needle tracks in their arm.

I will readily admit that my view may be colored by the fact that labor where I live is in very short supply, from the bottom to the top. I realize that’s not true in some places, and, frankly, I’m baffled by it to the point of wondering whether it’s objectively true that unemployment is chronic elsewhere or simply reflective of some kind of inertia on the part of people who have been persuaded that reasonable degrees of human effort produce no positive results.

Possibly, some peoples’ inability or perceived inability, or even unwillingness, to move to places where jobs are, results in imbalances that are thought by some to be caused by something else.

And we have to ask ourselves, then, whether we are “pushing on a string” to demand that wage levels be imposed by fiat on jobs that really aren’t worth the wage level demanded, when the real problem might well be an uneven distribution of opportunities beyond “kid work” or “retiree work”. And if those imbalances exist, and I don’t think there’s any doubt that they do, then why do they exist and what’s to be done about it? I have heard peoples’ speculations about it, but I can’t be sure they’re fully explanatory.

I am serious in wondering about that. I realize there are those who deny that Texas, for example, is a good place to work or to hire workers. It is a fact that employment growth in the U.S. during this administration would be negative but for Texas alone. Yes, there are jobs in oil and there is no income tax, but one has to wonder whether the reality is that somehow there is a symbiosis that might not be easy to accomplish. People move to Texas (and they do) because there are jobs that promise a future better than the one they had, and employers move there because they perceive there is a willing work force in Texas. Somehow, the “chicken” and the “egg” are simultaneous.

So, is the wage level at McDonald’s to be fixed by imposing higher wage levels when we have no idea at all how that will affect anyone or cure anything, or is there something more complex that we should be looking at?

For myself, I’m inclined to think the latter.

 

[meltzerboy]

I will readily admit that my view may be colored by the fact that labor where I live is in very short supply, from the bottom to the top. I realize that’s not true in some places, and, frankly, I’m baffled by it to the point of wondering whether it’s objectively true that unemployment is chronic elsewhere or simply reflective of some kind of inertia on the part of people who have been persuaded that reasonable degrees of human effort produce no positive results.

Possibly, some peoples’ inability or perceived inability, or even unwillingness, to move to places where jobs are, results in imbalances that are thought by some to be caused by something else.

And we have to ask ourselves, then, whether we are “pushing on a string” to demand that wage levels be imposed by fiat on jobs that really aren’t worth the wage level demanded, when the real problem might well be an uneven distribution of opportunities beyond “kid work” or “retiree work”. And if those imbalances exist, and I don’t think there’s any doubt that they do, then why do they exist and what’s to be done about it? I have heard peoples’ speculations about it, but I can’t be sure they’re fully explanatory.

I am serious in wondering about that. I realize there are those who deny that Texas, for example, is a good place to work or to hire workers. It is a fact that employment growth in the U.S. during this administration would be negative but for Texas alone. Yes, there are jobs in oil and there is no income tax, but one has to wonder whether the reality is that somehow there is a symbiosis that might not be easy to accomplish. People move to Texas (and they do) because there are jobs that promise a future better than the one they had, and employers move there because they perceive there is a willing work force in Texas. Somehow, the “chicken” and the “egg” are simultaneous.

So, is the wage level at McDonald’s to be fixed by imposing higher wage levels when we have no idea at all how that will affect anyone or cure anything, or is there something more complex that we should be looking at?

For myself, I’m inclined to think the latter.

Yes, I agree with you that there are areas of the country in which job growth in certain industries is abundant compared to others in which there is scarcity. I have relatives in Houston, Texas who are doing very well, to put it mildly. (Mitt Romney would be considered a poor relative according to their economic standards. I have no idea what they might think of me!) And I also agree there is no doubt more complexity to the situation than may meet the eye. Nonetheless, as we study the problem to promote longer-term solutions and benefits to more people, why not also give some immediate relief to those who are presently suffering by raising the minimum wage, if only a little? I realize this is a quick fix, and may not be all good down the road; but sometimes, as in emergency medicine, a quick fix may be better than doing nothing.

 

[ishii]

Yes, I agree with you that there are areas of the country in which job growth in certain industries is abundant compared to others in which there is scarcity. I have relatives in Houston, Texas who are doing very well, to put it mildly. (Mitt Romney would be considered a poor relative according to their economic standards. I have no idea what they might think of me!) And I also agree there is no doubt more complexity to the situation than may meet the eye. Nonetheless, as we study the problem to promote longer-term solutions and benefits to more people, why not also give some immediate relief to those who are presently suffering by raising the minimum wage, if only a little? I realize this is a quick fix, and may not be all good down the road; but sometimes, as in emergency medicine, a quick fix may be better than doing nothing.

But isn’t it more complex than merely increasing the minimum wage? And if many of those working for minimum wage do so for supplemental income or as young workers entering the job market for the first time, should we not consider the adverse effects of a minimum wage increase on their prospects for continued employment / working hours ? (to say nothing of the long term effects in terms of more automation and elimination of opportunities therein).

All things considered, it seems increasing the minimum wage for all - in order to help the few would be bad policy. On a personal note: I once worked a minimum wage job in order to make some extra money to pay some bills (in addition to my “real” job). I was very happy getting the small extra check every two weeks as it helped a great deal for the six months I did this.

Ishii

 

[outremer]

You mean oppose raising the minimum wage?

The best way to rise above minimum wage jobs (which are not intended to support families) is to learn a job skill that gets you beyond entry level wages. Of course - many are perfectly happy earning minimum wage as supplemental income or as a first job. You have to start somewhere.

If you are for increasing the minimum wage, then tell us how you’d help those who are laid off because business (smaller businesses) cannot afford to pay the higher wages. What’s the answer, more foodstamps?

Ishii

People will continue to advocate for and pass minimum wage increases as the cost of living continues to rise.

Increasing the minimum wage puts more money in people’s pockets; that’s why they vote for it.

I fully agree that “getting a better job” is one solution; I myself will be working towards a law degree once I’m out of the service. However, cost of living will continue to rise. If libertarians and conservatives can’t offer viable solutions to lower the cost of living, you’re wasting your time ranting about the minimum wage.