Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[Ender]

So you don’t advocate for exploiting workers? Great. you’re halfway to Social Justice enlightenment already…

Now, where do you see the fairness in a worker keeping down 3 jobs to stay above water…?

Perhaps if I use red text you will see the point I’m making.There is nothing in any church document that requires support for an increase in the minimum wage.
That claim is either correct or incorrect and it has nothing to do with whether I am personally a good and fair person. I may well be as evil as you judge me to be … but that doesn’t make mean I am mistaken. Either the church has such a statement or she hasn’t; this is a question of facts, not ethics.

Ender

 

[ARSpade]

So you don’t advocate for exploiting workers? Great. you’re halfway to Social Justice enlightenment already…

Now, where do you see the fairness in a worker keeping down 3 jobs to stay above water…?

They’re still going to have to work 3 jobs because stuff will be more expensive.

That’s how inflationary practices work.

Goes back to the old “Let’s make minimum wage $1 million a year and then we’ll all live in giant mansions” joke.

The only thing that reduces the inflationary part is if those companies get rid of many of those minimum wage jobs. So in that scenario you’ll have some people making more and a bunch of people making nothing.

 

[Corki]

There should be wage equality…

And there’s the problem.

There have been calls to raise the minimum wage to some pulled-out-of-the-sky number such as $15/hour. Does that create wage equality? No, it** increases the inequality** because it narrows the difference between a starting wage and the wage paid to a worker with more seniority, more skills or more education.

Example:

entry level paid $8/hour
first line supervisor paid $12/hour

minimum wage increases to $15/hour
entry level employee gets a $7/hour increase, supervisor gets a $3/hour increase
They are paid the same amount but that’s not wage “equality” because their (name removed by moderator)ut is not equal.

To preserve wage equality, you would have to raise the supervisor’s starting rate to $19/hour and also raise every other employee’s salary by a similar amount or percentage.

How does anyone not see that this would either A) drastically raise the cost of the goods or services provided or B) cause the business to fold creating a new wage for all of these workers - ZERO?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

And there’s the problem.

There have been calls to raise the minimum wage to some pulled-out-of-the-sky number such as $15/hour. Does that create wage equality? No, it** increases the inequality** because it narrows the difference between a starting wage and the wage paid to a worker with more seniority, more skills or more education.

Example:

entry level paid $8/hour
first line supervisor paid $12/hour

minimum wage increases to $15/hour
entry level employee gets a $7/hour increase, supervisor gets a $3/hour increase
They are paid the same amount but that’s not wage “equality” because their (name removed by moderator)ut is not equal.

To preserve wage equality, you would have to raise the supervisor’s starting rate to $19/hour and also raise every other employee’s salary by a similar amount or percentage.

How does anyone not see that this would either A) drastically raise the cost of the goods or services provided or B) cause the business to fold creating a new wage for all of these workers - ZERO?

This is the point I brought up in one of these threads. Of course it goes unanswered, other than the circular argument that we need to pay a “living wage” even though we have not defined a living wage actually is (and it’s not the same for everybody), nor have the addressed the decision tree/conclusions posed by simply just raising the minimum wage - that it doesn’t address the underlying problems.

A solution would be to get people to be in a position where they can command a salary well above the minimum.

 

[estesbob]

And there’s the problem.

There have been calls to raise the minimum wage to some pulled-out-of-the-sky number such as $15/hour. Does that create wage equality? No, it** increases the inequality** because it narrows the difference between a starting wage and the wage paid to a worker with more seniority, more skills or more education.

Example:

entry level paid $8/hour
first line supervisor paid $12/hour

minimum wage increases to $15/hour
entry level employee gets a $7/hour increase, supervisor gets a $3/hour increase
They are paid the same amount but that’s not wage “equality” because their (name removed by moderator)ut is not equal.

To preserve wage equality, you would have to raise the supervisor’s starting rate to $19/hour and also raise every other employee’s salary by a similar amount or percentage.

How does anyone not see that this would either A) drastically raise the cost of the goods or services provided or B) cause the business to fold creating a new wage for all of these workers - ZERO?

And, of course, inflation kicks in hurting everyone, including those that got the $7.00 an hour raise.

 

[ARSpade]

This is the point I brought up in one of these threads. Of course it goes unanswered, other than the circular argument that we need to pay a “living wage” even though we have not defined a living wage actually is (and it’s not the same for everybody), nor have the addressed the decision tree/conclusions posed by simply just raising the minimum wage - that it doesn’t address the underlying problems.

A solution would be to get people to be in a position where they can command a salary well above the minimum.

Plus “living wage” would depend greatly on where you live. “Federal minimum wage” advocates seem to never realize the “living wage” in the northern part of Florida would be vastly different from the “living wage” in DC.

 

[zz912]

So you support exploiting workers and enslaving them to work 3 jobs in order to satisfy the rabid greed of the ‘Market’.

I, and many Catholics, do not…

The self-righteousness is strong with this one…

 

[stinkcat_14]

They’re still going to have to work 3 jobs because stuff will be more expensive.

That’s how inflationary practices work.

Actually, the minimum wage has almost no impact on inflation.

Goes back to the old “Let’s make minimum wage $1 million a year and then we’ll all live in giant mansions” joke.

The only thing that reduces the inflationary part is if those companies get rid of many of those minimum wage jobs. So in that scenario you’ll have some people making more and a bunch of people making nothing.

But of course, the minimum wage has no impact on inflation.

 

[ARSpade]

Actually, the minimum wage has almost no impact on inflation.

But of course, the minimum wage has no impact on inflation.

Just because the left likes to think that doesn’t make it so.

A rise in wages by fiat causes a rise in prices (or greater unemployment or both) which causes a rise in…

etc.

You can create wealth but not out of thin air.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Just because the left likes to think that doesn’t make it so.

Just because that you say it does, doesn’t make it so either. If you think I am wrong, why don’t you link us to a study that proves your point. After all, I am not of the left, so I am not parroting anyone’s talking points.

 

[stinkcat_14]

A rise in wages by fiat causes a rise in prices (or greater unemployment or both) which causes a rise in…

etc.

You can create wealth but not out of thin air.

A rise in wages could cause a rise in prices, but of course it depends on the competitiveness of the product market. In a competitive product market the seller won’t be able to change prices, so the higher costs might have to be eaten by the seller in terms of lower profit. It also assumes that there is no substitution of capital for labor.

Like I said, feel free to cite a study who proves the link you claim.

 

[ARSpade]

Just because that you say it does, doesn’t make it so either. If you think I am wrong, why don’t you link us to a study that proves your point. After all, I am not of the left, so I am not parroting anyone’s talking points.

k

questia.com/library/journal/1G1-280558268/do-minimum-wage-increases-cause-inflation-evidence

There’s a bunch on JSTOR as well, but that one had the most readible intro
google.com/search?q=JSTOR+minimum+wage+inflation

It says it can drive inflation.

It’s pretty easy. Wages go up, which increases costs. Business either raises prices (driving more stuff up - inflation) or fires people or both.

So you’re either driving up inflation, driving up unemployment, or both.

Venezuala just raised their minimum wage with high inflation. Let’s see what happens.

 

[ARSpade]

And, of course, we should probably note again that about 1% of the population is making minimum wage, and most of them are under 25.

 

[stinkcat_14]

And, of course, we should probably note again that about 1% of the population is making minimum wage, and most of them are under 25.

And of course, how is raising the wages of the lowest 1% of the workforce going to affect inflation? Perhaps you can provide some evidence from the current decade?

 

[ARSpade]

And of course, how is raising the wages of the lowest 1% of the workforce going to affect inflation? Perhaps you can provide some evidence from the current decade?

Because pushing up the bottom, regardless of where it is, effects all of those above?

If minimum wage is currently $8, and you raise it to $10, then a person who worked their way up to $10 isn’t going to be happy with suddenly making minimum wage again, will they? And then everything goes up (or unemployment, or both).

And, of course, it’ll impact anybody who deals with areas that mostly pay minimum wage. Service and such. It’ll drive those costs up and those service areas will either cost more or unemployment will jump. Mostly small businesses or franchises.

forbes.com/sites/williamdunkelberg/2012/12/31/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-kills-jobs/ ← stolen from the other thread.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So you don’t advocate for exploiting workers? Great. you’re halfway to Social Justice enlightenment already…

Now, where do you see the fairness in a worker keeping down 3 jobs to stay above water…?

Long ago, I worked at three jobs. It wasn’t so bad, gave some variation in what I did. One was outside, so that helped.

But I didn’t work at three jobs forever, and i doubt many do. And I very much doubt many people have three full time jobs, because you would not get any sleep at all if you did.

When I worked three jobs, one was full time and two were part time.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Because pushing up the bottom, regardless of where it is, effects all of those above?

If minimum wage is currently $8, and you raise it to $10, then a person who worked their way up to $10 isn’t going to be happy with suddenly making minimum wage again, will they? And then everything goes up (or unemployment, or both).

How often has your boss came to you and said: “because the federal minimum wage has gone up, I will now raise your wage rate by a proportional amount”? I can tell you that my wage rate has never gone up because the minimum wage rate has gone up. If we all got raises when the minimum goes up, I would suspect that most of us would very quickly become in favor of the minimum wage.

And, of course, it’ll impact anybody who deals with areas that mostly pay minimum wage. Service and such. It’ll drive those costs up and those service areas will either cost more or unemployment will jump. Mostly small businesses or franchises.

forbes.com/sites/williamdunkelberg/2012/12/31/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-kills-jobs/ ← stolen from the other thread.

Or profits will go down, or firms will switch to using more capital and less labor. There are a number of possible effects.

 

[freeRadical]

I’m old enough to remember some of the things that happened when a major jump in the minimum wage was imposed in the past. My family is from the deep South and while I didn’t grow up there we went back to visit quite frequently, and we were down there once shortly after the minimum wage had been bumped.

At the time, jobs for blacks were very hard to come by and a lot of black women worked in private homes as cooks, nannies, and maids. When the minimum wage jumped, those white families who were hiring them had to decide if they could now afford to pay those higher wages. My uncle the lawyer kept his maid on full time and she was clearly better off than before. My other uncles, who weren’t so well off, either significantly reduced the hours for their help or stopped hiring altogether. Those women were clearly worse off than before.

This effect is probably at least part of what Friedman was referring to.

Ender

Partly. What Friedman was really getting at was that the minimum wage prices low skill labor out of the market and black people tend to be lower skilled then the rest of the population. He claimed that the minimum wage discriminates against low skilled labor and minority labor, the same groups it is claimed to help.

 

[freeRadical]

There should be wage equality…

What do you mean by wage equality?

 

[freeRadical]

This is just not true.

Church teaching insists we respect the worker and oppose killing unborn babies. I adhere to both, do you…?

But the Church also teaches that if you have a choice between voting for a political candidate that supports an increases the minimum wage and also supports abortion and a candidate that does not support an increase in the minimum wage and is against abortion, we must vote for the latter. Abortion is grave matter and is more important then so called political “solutions” to helping the poor. Catholics, in good conscience, cannot support abortion any form. Catholics who vote for political candidates who support abortion, even thought the candidate is for numerous programs that “help” the poor, are committing grave sin.