Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[WildCatholic]

Plus “living wage” would depend greatly on where you live. “Federal minimum wage” advocates seem to never realize the “living wage” in the northern part of Florida would be vastly different from the “living wage” in DC.

I think this is a huge issue. I live in Nebraska, which is one of the cheapest places to live, and in all honesty, you can make 12 dollars an hour and live decently here, but $12 per hour in the Bay Area is nothing. I think that if anyone should determine minimum wages, it should be the states. Also, people would wise up and move from say California where $15 an hour and might not be enough to live on, where as in Texas or Nebraska or really any great plains or southern state, $15 dollars would get you a decent life, but eventually if too many people moved in, it would cause the same problems

 

[zz912]

Of course it matters. The person’s personal views are irrelevant in their professional role as a politician…

This is in direct contradiction to explicit Church teaching.

 

[estesbob]

This is in direct contradiction to explicit Church teaching.

Of course it is but if you want to be 'progressive" and Catholic it makes it very difficult to vote unless you go through these kinds of contortions. What is really ironic is we used to be to be the opposite-that it was OK to vote for pro-abortion candidates as ling as they were “personally” opposed to abortion

 

[Listener]

I thought the subject of this thread was the minimum wage. What does that have to do with abortion and pregnant women? I think Pope Francis is right. There is such an emphasis on abortion that no other moral question can be taken seriously.

It does say in the Catholic Catechism that workers need to be paid a decent wage. The Federal minimum wage is so low that it is almost a joke. It is a good thing that the State minimum wage overrides the Federal minimum wage.

Who can get away with paying someone such a low wage? The last time we needed a plumber, it was $75 just for him to show up at our door!
After that, it was around $100 for every 15 minutes he was there!

If you need care for an elderly person, that will be a minimum of $20 per hour, and they don’t care that the elderly person has to come up with that kind of money with only a Social Security check.

The bishops are right, the minimum wage definitely needs to be raised!

 

[estesbob]

I thought the subject of this thread was the minimum wage. What does that have to do with abortion and pregnant women? I think Pope Francis is right. There is such an emphasis on abortion that no other moral question can be taken seriously.

It does say in the Catholic Catechism that workers need to be paid a decent wage. The Federal minimum wage is so low that it is almost a joke. It is a good thing that the State minimum wage overrides the Federal minimum wage.

Who can get away with paying someone such a low wage? The last time we needed a plumber, it was $75 just for him to show up at our door!
After that, it was around $100 for every 15 minutes he was there!

If you need care for an elderly person, that will be a minimum of $20 per hour, and they don’t care that the elderly person has to come up with that kind of money with only a Social Security check.

The bishops are right, the minimum wage definitely needs to be raised!

You evidently didn’t read what the Pope said.

 

[JimG]

"ARSpade:

Because pushing up the bottom, regardless of where it is, effects all of those above?

If minimum wage is currently $8, and you raise it to $10, then a person who worked their way up to $10 isn’t going to be happy with suddenly making minimum wage again, will they? And then everything goes up (or unemployment, or both).

You are also forgetting that many union contracts are tied to the minimum wage, and any increase in the MW results in higher wages for all the union members automatically.

Yes, if in fact a great many people are affected by a minimum wage increase, it would have the effect of raising wages across the board. And of raising prices across the board, thereby making the new wage have less buying power.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Yes, if in fact a great many people are affected by a minimum wage increase, it would have the effect of raising wages across the board. And of raising prices across the board, thereby making the new wage have less buying power.

I suspect though, that if we all got raises whenever the minimum wage was increased there would be a lot more popular support for increasing the minimum wage.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Have you ever voted for a non-Catholic politician…?

non-Catholics can speak truth even though they are not Catholic.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I thought the subject of this thread was the minimum wage. What does that have to do with abortion and pregnant women? I think Pope Francis is right. There is such an emphasis on abortion that no other moral question can be taken seriously.

It does say in the Catholic Catechism that workers need to be paid a decent wage. The Federal minimum wage is so low that it is almost a joke. It is a good thing that the State minimum wage overrides the Federal minimum wage.

Who can get away with paying someone such a low wage? The last time we needed a plumber, it was $75 just for him to show up at our door!
After that, it was around $100 for every 15 minutes he was there!

If you need care for an elderly person, that will be a minimum of $20 per hour, and they don’t care that the elderly person has to come up with that kind of money with only a Social Security check.

The bishops are right, the minimum wage definitely needs to be raised!

Selective reading I see.

What if a study comes out that says the majority of people who work for minimum wage are students, retires or just people looking to augment their income, who is to say they aren’t getting a just wage?

Also, you are not considering that the people who work at the low end of the wage scale are in UNSKILLED positions and will always be at the low end of the pay scale, no matter what the minimum wage actually is. So actually just raising it in a vacuum is not a solution to actually help them.

What you’re proposing is that we not only have a minimum wage, but price controls and wage limits. This smells of Socialism or Communism which the Church has warned us against.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I suspect though, that if we all got raises whenever the minimum wage was increased there would be a lot more popular support for increasing the minimum wage.

But, again, people don’t understand simple economics, which is why they voted in Obama into two terms.

What the general populace doesn’t understand is that we would reach the same position where each group has the same relative buying power if we bumped up everyone’s pay.

 

[stinkcat_14]

But, again, people don’t understand simple economics, which is why they voted in Obama into two terms.

In my experience, economic ignorance is not limited to those who voted for Obama.

What the general populace doesn’t understand is that we would reach the same position where each group has the same relative buying power if we bumped up everyone’s pay.

Actually it is far from clear that would be the case. It would depend on the relative amounts of labor and capital used, what fraction of goods we import, etc. Whether it would be a good thing is certainly debatable but it certainly not a given that raising wages will lead to higher prices.

clevelandfed.org/research/policydis/pd1.pdf

 

[Ender]

Isn’t that what it’s about though? Whether or not it’s better for the poor if the minimum wage should be raised or not?

If the thread had been started with that question, then yes, but this thread was about the comment Bishop Wenski made that the minimum wage should be raised, which simply assumes that it would be a good idea, so the question here is really about the nature of the bishops remarks: is it an economic judgment or a moral one? Whatever one may think about whether the minimum wage should or should not be increased I think there is no argument to be made that his comments represent any more than his personal opinion. It is not church teaching and his opinion on the economic effect of raising the minimum wage is no more significant than that of any other poster on this forum.

Ender

 

[TEPO]

But, again, people don’t understand simple economics, which is why they voted in Obama into two terms.

What the general populace doesn’t understand is that we would reach the same position where each group has the same relative buying power if we bumped up everyone’s pay.

The true Catholic opinion, if anything, should be for a lower minimum wage, that way immigrants who are just getting here would initially have more purchasing power since the cost of groceries would also lower. They’d still have the same ‘purchasing power’ after becoming established anyways.

 

[Trader]

Yes, if in fact a great many people are affected by a minimum wage increase, it would have the effect of raising wages across the board. And of raising prices across the board, thereby making the new wage have less buying power.

It could also push them into a higher tax bracket making the gross gain a net loss after inflation and taxes. Not all elements of the tax system are indexed to inflation.

Lots of people would be able to overlook the actual harm done by changes that make them feel better. Other problems like pricing the least skilled people out of the job market have already been addressed by others.

 

[stinkcat_14]

It could also push them into a higher tax bracket making the gross gain a net loss after inflation and taxes. Not all elements of the tax system are indexed to inflation.

Except that it would only be the raise that is taxed at a higher marginal tax rate. And inflation is independent of the minimum wage, so that would occur anyway.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Two things here.

Minimum wage: If almost nobody actually works for minimum wage other than maybe teenagers, I am wondering why this is a sufficiently important issue to draw the archbishop’s attention. Raising the minimum wage might not kill jobs, but it certainly won’t increase them, and an increase in jobs is what’s really needed right now. So is this really just a matter of one’s ideology without there being any practical purpose in it?

Living wage: I don’t think anybody on here has yet established what a “living wage” is in all circumstances. Some have said it’s a wage high enough to support a family. If that’s the definition, then one has to wonder why it’s “socially just” to pay a teenager living with his parents who is saving up to buy a car the same as the breadwinner(s) who support him.

It all just seems like a kind of random idealism that has no practical grounding at all.

I’m not trying to be difficult here, but it seems to me the good archbishop might help the poor more by encouraging moral lifestyles. After all, if one acts morally, one is unlikely to find oneself having to support a family when he/she has no spouse to supplement the effort and no skills.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Two things here.

Minimum wage: If almost nobody actually works for minimum wage other than maybe teenagers, I am wondering why this is a sufficiently important issue to draw the archbishop’s attention. Raising the minimum wage might not kill jobs, but it certainly won’t increase them, and an increase in jobs is what’s really needed right now. So is this really just a matter of one’s ideology without there being any practical purpose in it?

Actually, a little less than a third of of minimum wage workers are teenagers. While only about 15% are over 25, it is not too much of a stretch to think that there are a fair number who rely on the job for more than buying a car. As you note, the effects of the minimum wage are far from clear, so it is certainly one of those areas where reasonable people can differ.

bls.gov/cps/minwage2012tbls.htm#1

 

[Trader]

Except that it would only be the raise that is taxed at a higher marginal tax rate. And inflation is independent of the minimum wage, so that would occur anyway.

I am not a tax expert, but there is a very steep jump in taxes for people trying to work their way out of poverty. The higher statutory rate is only a small part of the problem. They also lose credits for child care, earned income, housing and food subsidies, and now with Obamacare, health insurance subsidies. Even saving money in a bank account can cost you benefits.

Just last week I got a notice from Social Security that I could get extra help if I had assets of less than $26000. That seemed like communication from another planet to me. Who reaches retirement age with less savings than that unless there was a real tragedy, or a lengthy period of irresponsibility?

The only one in my life in that position is a person I lent $2400 in December 2012. It was supposed to be repaid at $200 per month. So far, only one payment was made on time and no payments have been made since August. Two checks were no good. Writing bad checks is a crime in Indiana. She actually has more regular income than me with SS, a pension, and a part time job, but she makes a lot of bad choices. The good decision she needs to make is, “Just for today, I will not consume alcohol.” A priest who knows her her better than I do told me it was a mistake to lend her money.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Actually, a little less than a third of of minimum wage workers are teenagers. While only about 15% are over 25, it is not too much of a stretch to think that there are a fair number who rely on the job for more than buying a car. As you note, the effects of the minimum wage are far from clear, so it is certainly one of those areas where reasonable people can differ.

bls.gov/cps/minwage2012tbls.htm#1

I agree you can’t tell much about these statistics. Of that 15% of minimum wage workers who are over age 25, how many are retired people supplementing their income? How many are the spouses of full-time workers who are just earning a little extra? How many do it just to have something to do besides sitting around the house?

How many are really trying to make a living out of minimum wage work? These stats don’t tell you.

But no matter what, is a desire to allow people to make a living at minimum wage a sufficient basis for a moral crusade to raise it when we don’t know whether anybody is actually relying on those earnings for their living?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

In my experience, economic ignorance is not limited to those who voted for Obama.

I agree, as I am politically cynical.

Actually it is far from clear that would be the case. It would depend on the relative amounts of labor and capital used, what fraction of goods we import, etc. Whether it would be a good thing is certainly debatable but it certainly not a given that raising wages will lead to higher prices.

clevelandfed.org/research/policydis/pd1.pdf

Agreed. It is a complex subject, which requires further study. Which is why I take the Bishops statement with a grain of salt.