Michael Voris takes EWTN to task

[Joe_5859]

The problem isn’t Voris. The problem is not seeing the gravity of ills in the Church.

I liken the negative response to Voris as a bi-stander who witnesses a Dad severely chastising his his teenage son in public. Without knowing the reason for the chastising, the father sounds harsh, so the by-stander inquires about the ruckus. He actually suspects that the father may be abusive.

The father says that his son is has been kissing some of the girls in the neighborhood. The by-stander interjects that although this is not good he could be doing a lot of worse things. The father says his son is HIV positive. The by-stander a little more concerned, but dismisses the problem saying that HIV cannot be transmitted by kissing. He tells the father to ease up. Later the by-stander finds that his daughter was kissed and she contracted HIV from the boy.

So Voris is the father and the bishops are his children? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

If Voris is exaggerating those ills thereby contributing to a false sense of the ills of the Church, wouldn’t that be problematic? Would that not sow seeds of distrust in the hierarchy and instill in Catholics a general sense of disgruntlement?

Certainly, we do not want to overlook the problems in the Church. But neither do we want to give them greater weight than is proportionate. That, too, would be detrimental.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am amazed that Michael Voris has the following that he does. 100 percent of his reports are vicious criticisms of things he doesn’t like about the Church. He is over-dramatic, one-sided and uncharitable. The equivalent of a Catholic tabloid magazine.

Before someone else says it, I’ll just point out that “100 percent” is probably an exaggeration.

 

[Gidge]

So Voris is the father and the bishops are his children? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

It should be the other way around, but sadly there are few bishops (in America, anyway) leading the way.

St. John Chrysostom said: “The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”
– just waiting for someone here to call a saint “uncharitable” or “judgmental”

 

[jking1962]

So Voris is the father and the bishops are his children? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

If Voris is exaggerating those ills thereby contributing to a false sense of the ills of the Church, wouldn’t that be problematic? Would that not sow seeds of distrust in the hierarchy and instill in Catholics a general sense of disgruntlement?

Certainly, we do not want to overlook the problems in the Church. But neither do we want to give them greater weight than is proportionate. That, too, would be detrimental.

The seeds of distrust were sown by the offenders actions not by the reporting of it by someone else. This is the very logic that led Bishops to cover up problems and move priests around. Your concern of over reacting is legitimate. I heard of good priests being swept away with the bad.

Again, Voris is not reporting about venial issues. Was it you or someone else who said they only watched one Vortex in it’s entirety?

So I am getting a clearer picture here that although you agree that Voris is not outright lying you suggest that he is making a mountain out of a molehill.

This brings us full circle to the fact that you see the ills much smaller than I and others who support Voris.

 

[pnewton]

So Voris is the father and the bishops are his children? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

The analogy was a warning about judging someone from the outside, not the direction of authority. It is a valid point, but it can also be applied to all who judge those in authority in the Church from the outside, or more to the point of this thread, judging the interworkings of EWTN, Catholic Answers or Church Militant from the outside. I know I sometimes cross the line and have to refocus on issues, but I try to never be personal, but rather stick to specifics.

If Voris is exaggerating those ills thereby contributing to a false sense of the ills of the Church, wouldn’t that be problematic?

I think one of the differences in perceptions. A previous poster said few bishops are leading, making the “good” bishop an exception. I see it very much as the other way around. Thus, I have no issue with the level of reporting given by the Catholic media castigated in this video. I do think it is contrary to Catholic teaching to assign the worst possible motives to these media outlets as opposed to accepting they may not believe in the same level of crisis, emergency, scandal, that you do.

 

[Credo111]

Could we please stop focusing on what sort of man Voris is and start talking about the matter at hand, which is the gay lobby in the Church and why the establishment media keep quiet about it? WHO CARES what sort of man Voris personally is. He’s just a regular guy trying to save souls. And that’s what each of us should be about the business of doing–saving souls.

Voris does not “exaggerate” nor is he being “dishonest.” He gets hundreds of e-mails a week from Catholics (including priests and seminarians) all over the world telling him about their sufferings in the Church, and how orthodox priests are persecuted by their brother priests and some don’t receive any backing from their bishops.

For example, one of my friends, Fr. Michael Rodriguez, spoke out publicly against same-sex legislation at a city council a few years ago, reiterating the clear teachings of the Church that same-sex acts are a mortal sin.

Instead of being supported by the bishop, he was punished and sent packing to a tiny rural parish 250 miles away. The bishop looked the other way at the homosexual clergy activity in his diocese, as well as the heretical teachings and liturgical abuses which continue to go on today.

This example could be repeated many times over in dioceses all over the world.

Look at the breathtaking drop in vocations between 1960 to today–a 90% decline in almost every major religious order, a shortage of vocations, a shortage of crisis proportions in the priesthood.

Catholics cohabitate, abort, use contraception, and divorce and remarry at equal or HIGHER rates than their non-Catholic peers. More and more Catholics are also supporting same-sex marriage.

If you don’t think the house is on fire, you are NOT opening your eyes.

Yet people are more interested in nitpicking Voris’s style than actually listening to the important things he has to say. The house is on fire, he’s waving his arms trying to bring it to the attention of the occupants, yet they’re more interested in criticizing the way he’s delivering the message than actually putting the fire out.

 

[pnewton]

St. John Chrysostom said: “The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”

I would prefer colorful. I would point out though that in this particular case we have someone who had the authority to make such a statement. For the record, just because I said aggressiveness is not a virtue, I have never said that it did not have its appropriate time and place.

Now I like this saint, but for the record, being a saint does not mean that one can not be tactless and sometimes have brashness backfire.

 

[Joe_5859]

The analogy was a warning about judging someone from the outside, not the direction of authority. It is a valid point, but it can also be applied to all who judge those in authority in the Church from the outside, or more to the point of this thread, judging the interworkings of EWTN, Catholic Answers or Church Militant from the outside. I know I sometimes cross the line and have to refocus on issues, but I try to never be personal, but rather stick to specifics.

Good point. Then to borrow the analogy, I would view Voris more in the position of the underinformed observer than the disciplining father. I don’t think he is “in the know” any more than I am. So why should I trust his estimation of what that father is doing?

I think one of the differences in perceptions. A previous poster said few bishops are leading, making the “good” bishop an exception. I see it very much as the other way around. Thus, I have no issue with the level of reporting given by the Catholic media castigated in this video. I do think it is contrary to Catholic teaching to assign the worst possible motives to these media outlets as opposed to accepting they may not believe in the same level of crisis, emergency, scandal, that you do.

I’m with you there, too. I know that making generalizations is somewhat born out of necessity here on CAF as we are not permitted to single out bishops and clergy for reprimand (a rule for which I am grateful). But I have to wonder who posters are talking about when they say “most” bishops are weak, afraid to speak out, afraid to offend, afraid to teach the truth, afraid, afraid, afraid. That doesn’t describe the vast majority of bishops I am familiar with. They are far more cognizant of the burden they carry than we are.

It’s like the fact that every single bishop is not making daily headlines for saying something over-the-top offensive – that is also affirming a Catholic doctrine – is taken as evidence by its absence that the bishops “aren’t doing enough.” I guarantee they’re doing a whole lot more to change the culture than any of us here.

 

[Joe_5859]

It should be the other way around, but sadly there are few bishops (in America, anyway) leading the way.

St. John Chrysostom said: “The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”
– just waiting for someone here to call a saint “uncharitable” or “judgmental”

I should start to keep a running list of these quotes and how often they get posted in these discussions.

 

[Gidge]

…in this particular case we have someone who had the authority to make such a statement. For the record, just because I said aggressiveness is not a virtue, I have never said that it did not have its appropriate time and place.

Now I like this saint, but for the record, being a saint does not mean that one can not be tactless and sometimes have brashness backfire.

The “milquetoast” bishops have the authority and, for whatever reason do not exercise it.

Forceful ≠ tactless

Evil is an enemy and must be dealt with accordingly ; one doesn’t play “footsie” in a battle situation, and make no mistake, we’re in battle (ergo, Church Militant).

 

[Credo111]

I would view Voris more in the position of the underinformed observer than the disciplining father. I don’t think he is “in the know” any more than I am. So why should I trust his estimation of what that father is doing?

Do you receive hundreds of e-mails a week from priests, seminarians, and Catholic laity all over the world telling you about the sufferings in the Church, year after year?

Do you travel all over the world, visiting parish after parish, speaking to thousands upon thousands of Catholics on a regular basis, hearing them speak of the liturgical abuses, the heretical sermons, and the silence from their bishops?

Do you have private meetings with bishops from all over the world in which problems are frankly discussed? Do you have their numbers on your cell phone and talk with them regularly?

Have you ever had a bishop look you in the eye and say, “I can’t say the things you’re saying, but I wish I could–but you NEED to keep talking about the problems in the Church”?

Do you meet privately with Cardinal Raymond Burke every year to discuss the problems in the Church, and to be told to continue the much-needed work of bringing these problems to light?

Well, Michael Voris has.

So I think he has quite a bit more information than the average layman, and yes, he has a very good bird’s-eye view of the problems in a way that most of us do not.
Christine

 

[Credo111]

I repeat:

Look at the breathtaking drop in vocations between 1960 to today–a 90% decline in almost every major religious order, a shortage of vocations, a shortage of crisis proportions in the priesthood.

Catholics cohabitate, abort, use contraception, and divorce and remarry at equal or HIGHER rates than their non-Catholic peers. More and more Catholics are also supporting same-sex marriage.

And bishops are for the most part silent about these problems, preferring happy-clappy, warm fuzzy sermons about LOVE and being NICE and not causing division or offense…

When was the last time you heard a sermon about the four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell?

When was the last time you heard a priest preach about mortal sin?

About contraception?

About the immorality of the gay lifestyle?

If you don’t think the house is on fire, you are NOT opening your eyes.

Yet people are more interested in nitpicking Voris’s style than actually listening to the important things he has to say. The house is on fire, he’s waving his arms trying to bring it to the attention of the occupants, yet they’re more interested in criticizing the way he’s delivering the message than actually putting the fire out.

 

[pnewton]

If you don’t think the house is on fire, you are NOT opening your eyes.

My eyes are open. The “house is not burning.” This is not the topic of this thread.

 

[Credo111]

My eyes are open. The “house is not burning.” This is not the topic of this thread.

It is laughable and ridiculous that you could read ALL the facts and statistics I just cited, and say with a straight face that the house is not burning. Yep, everything is okey-dokey in your world.

Maybe your eyes are open. Well, I did say something about willful blindness earlier–a blindness for which we will be called to account.

All your response tells me is that you cannot seriously contribute to this discussion, so I will from now on only pay attention to those who do.

 

[Gidge]

I should start to keep a running list of these quotes and how often they get posted in these discussions.

With over 12,000 posts you should have a database of many quotes from the saints – might be a good project using MS Access.

Whether these sayings seem shop-worn to you or not is not the issue; the saints said what needed to be said, when it was needed to be said, in the manner and tone it needed to be said.

Voris is saying what needs to be said, IMO.

 

[Credo111]

If anyone wants to have a SERIOUS discussion about the state of the Church, great. But so far, I am seeing this thread devolve into what it generally does whenever Voris’s name is brought up–attacks on his character or style, rather than any serious discussion of his substance.

Later.

 

[pnewton]

If anyone wants to have a SERIOUS discussion about the state of the Church, great…

I was terse because I do not want to go off topic. Of course I have an answer, but not here. It is not pertinent to the criticism Mr. Voris leveled at Catholic media, with one small exception. There is a commonality to be so full of our own opinions as to thing anyone who disagrees with us to do so because of some flaw of character.

 

[jking1962]

The analogy was a warning about judging someone from the outside, not the direction of authority. It is a valid point, but it can also be applied to all who judge those in authority in the Church from the outside, or more to the point of this thread, judging the interworkings of EWTN, Catholic Answers or Church Militant from the outside. I know I sometimes cross the line and have to refocus on issues, but I try to never be personal, but rather stick to specifics.

I think one of the differences in perceptions. A previous poster said few bishops are leading, making the “good” bishop an exception. I see it very much as the other way around. Thus, I have no issue with the level of reporting given by the Catholic media castigated in this video. I do think it is contrary to Catholic teaching to assign the worst possible motives to these media outlets as opposed to accepting they may not believe in the same level of crisis, emergency, scandal, that you do.

Exactly, I believe at this time a good Bishop is hard to find. Otherwise, there would not be the nonsense like allowing heretic Methodists ordain “clergy” in a Catholic Church, or proclaiming a fortnight for freedom campaign when the diocese has been paying for contraception benefits all along, or allowing Gay friendly masses to go on.

Critics of Voris fail to be able to discount the actual reporting he does. That is why they mostly criticize his delivery, that he his harsh or that he is blowing things out of proportion.

Again, we are at the same impasse that the actual issues at hand are smaller than Voris indicates. I believe that the issues speak for themselves.

Look at it like this, sodomy has always been sodomy. It doesn’t change. Not long ago this was consider by most Americans to be a heinous crime. Today, it is considered a right and those who speak out against it are bigots.

To a liberal modernist Catholic who fails to perceive the body of Christ in the Eucharist, it is not a big deal if one falls to the floor and gets trampled on.

Voris would look quite ridiculous to everyone if the issues he brought up were venial and he ranted about them.

The very reason he is putting a spot light on them is because the rest of Catholic media is not. There are other who feel as strongly as he does. It is not because people like scandal or causing dissension. The dissension are the issues themselves.

 

[Joe_5859]

Do you receive hundreds of e-mails a week from priests, seminarians, and Catholic laity all over the world telling you about the sufferings in the Church, year after year?

Do you travel all over the world, visiting parish after parish, speaking to thousands upon thousands of Catholics on a regular basis, hearing them speak of the liturgical abuses, the heretical sermons, and the silence from their bishops?

Do you have private meetings with bishops from all over the world in which problems are frankly discussed? Do you have their numbers on your cell phone and talk with them regularly?

Have you ever had a bishop look you in the eye and say, “I can’t say the things you’re saying, but I wish I could–but you NEED to keep talking about the problems in the Church”?

Do you meet privately with Cardinal Raymond Burke every year to discuss the problems in the Church, and to be told to continue the much-needed work of bringing these problems to light?

Well, Michael Voris has.

So I think he has quite a bit more information than the average layman, and yes, he has a very good bird’s-eye view of the problems in a way that most of us do not.
Christine

My bird’s-eye view is just fine, thanks.

Not to minimize Voris’ experience, but his is far from unique. You could ask all those same questions and just as easily be talking about some liberal theologian who is travelling the lecture circuit – almost always talking to like-minded people that are constantly telling them that they are just what the Church needs right now.

Just because one is hearing from a lot of people does not mean they aren’t also in an echo chamber.

 

[jking1962]

I should start to keep a running list of these quotes and how often they get posted in these discussions.

I would not consider a direct quote a possible cliche. In that case if I quoted Jesus too much his words would lose effectiveness.