Mid Life Crisis + I love you, but am not in love with you

[Xantippe]

This.
Lots of men seem to believe that if you aren’t talking out a problem exactly right this very second…it doesn’t exist. Don’t invalidate her by ignoring her problems. Or your role in them.

Right.

 

[mommy_k]

From time to time, parents of larger families do divorce. It does happen. (I’ve known of divorce to happen with at least two families with 7 children in my social/family circle.) Also, the Protestant quiverfull families not infrequently end in divorce.

As for special needs parents of even more difficult children, they not infrequently divorce. It’s also unfortunately not that rare for parents of autistic tween/teen children to kill them or do a murder/suicide.

So, I think I’d steer of the “everybody else is doing just fine, suck it up soldier” argument. I’d go more for “this is really hard and we need each other.”

Yes however-- I know couples with 1 or 2 kids that get divorced, becuase of not being connected as a couple. I also know couples without children that go this route too. The issue here is not the number of children, or the children-- and this is what I have been reading.

It is what is causing the op’s wife to think she is not in love–Lack of help pehaps?Resentment? Wanting romance? Stress?

Or what I believe is the root-- a lack of understanding of the peaks and valleys of love in a marriage and how love endures, looks different at times, and can overcome these obstacles. Not to address this is putting a bandaid on the problem.

This holds truth, and is taught in Pre-cana----whether the difficulty is managing a large family, special needs children, financial issues, work issues, inlaw issues, and so on.

It is not the finances, work, inlaws, kids or anything else. It is the love and connection with understanding of it- that makes or breaks marriages.

 

[Xantippe]

I think the issue was that he said that when his wife wants to talk about leaving him, “After much prayer I have decided when she brings it up I am not going to even discuss it. I am going to tell her as politely as I can that we were I don’t believe it in. I am not entering into this discussion.”

So he is shutting her down when she talks to him. Obviously, it’s a tricky thing figuring out what to say when she wants to discuss the mechanics of their not living together, but he is shutting down conversations.

Your idea of Retrouvaille as a condition is very good.

I also think your Love Language idea is very good–it’s possible that for the past four months, while doing good and important things, he hasn’t actually been using her love language.

To be fair though, the original poster is not sticking his fingers in his ears and singing. I am not sure how this comment is meant to help him, perhaps to inspire? I am confused, he came here and said he was sorry for his behavior and has made his wife and marriage number one for four months. While that isn’t perfect and it doesn’t erase the past he has to start somewhere.

To the original poster: I again urge Retrouavaille. Please consult your parish priest or deacon and see if you can arrange respite care for your children. It seems monumental but it’s only 48 hours you are asking for your wife to spend with you before she leaves. Tell her that you will consider talking about separation ONLY if she attends this one weekend with you. That may be a motivator for her.

This may sound like pop psychology but have you looked into what is called your wife’s “love language?” It’s not trivial babble but a thoughtful study respecting how God created us and what are the primary ways that we give and receive love. The five love languages are words of affirmation, acts of service, gifts, quality time and physical touch. If YOUR love language is acts of service for example, you will feel more loved when someone cuts the grass as a favor for you than if someone gives you a hug or tells you that you are wonderful does that make sense? Often couples try to show each other love over the years but miss each other emotionally because one person is trying in a manner that doesn’t mean much to the other person. It’s not a horoscope or anything silly but a way to understand that God hard-wired each of us differently from birth, and that we are given certain gifts.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes however-- I know couples with 1 or 2 kids that get divorced, becuase of not being connected as a couple. I also know couples without children that go this route too. The issue here is not the number of children, or the children-- and this is what I have been reading.

You may have mispoken, then. Here’s the quote from your post: “Parents of even larger familes, or more difficult parenting challenges do not seek divorce.”

Maybe what you meant to say is that *many *parents of larger families or who have more difficult parenting challenges do not seek divorce.

 

[pnewton]

If I understand right, she is wanting to leave because of feelings. A person cannot always help how they feel. I wish all couples before they married understood the reality that feelings change. It is not unusual for a married person to have periods of not “being in love.” However, leaving someone over this is not an act of love. It is a betrayal of a promise.

 

[KnitNut]

If I understand right, she is wanting to leave because of feelings. A person cannot always help how they feel. I wish all couples before they married understood the reality that feelings change. It is not unusual for a married person to have periods of not “being in love.” However, leaving someone over this is not an act of love. It is a betrayal of a promise.

We don’t actually know her side of the story, just what the OP has shared. The vast majority of “walk away wives” have been actually trying for years, even decades, trying everything they can think of to turn things around within the family/marriage…without improvement. And, similar to this situation, it’s a total shock and surprise to the guy when she finally, FINALLY has had enough and decides to leave. They call it a “mid life crisis”, or otherwise impugn her very real experiences and observations, and then, as this poster suggests, they blow her off and shut her down, and then try to guilt/shame her into compliance with their wishes.

Personally, I don’t think this poster’s situation has anything to do with “feelings of being in/out of love” - I think the wife/mother has been brought to the actual end of her mental/emotional/physical/spiritual rope by dealing with seriously troubled children, without meaningful support and involvement by her husband. She probably does think it would be easier on her own, as then she at least is only responsible for the kids, without the additional needs expressed by the, until now, unsupportive spouse. At this point, she is the one who has been betrayed, for an extended period of time, as admitted by the OP.

And to be clear, living apart for just cause is not a betrayal, nor is it a sin in the Catholic religion. Nor is civil divorce. So before the OP entertains any “she doesn’t take her faith seriously enough” wallowing, he really needs a hard look, preferably by outside professionals such as counselors, to determine what, if any, role he plays in the family dysfunction. Once he understands with frank clarity what the reality is, then he can begin to rectify things and earn her trust again.

 

[pnewton]

We don’t actually know her side of the story, just what the OP has shared. The vast majority of “walk away wives” have been actually trying for years, even .

Hence the word “if”. I do not know. You do not know. I can only comment on what was said and do not want to speculate. Yes, with just cause, a person can divorce. The key is “just cause”. The description from one side does not give any just cause, though it is only one side. Spousal abuse, protection of children and even protection of marital assets can justify a divorce. “Not being in love” for a while cannot.

 

[dannyd4007]

Thank you all very much for your insight.

Knitnut, I think you hit a lot on the head about how she may be feeling, though even though I have not given her everything she needs I have stepped up at every turn when things really became too much to endure.

I am given her the complete ability to “checkout” of parenting since July and I know it will take time. Lot’s of time, but we choose to take on this task of adopting children who have been removed from the home due to abuse and neglect and I really feel any form of separation will cause more grief and trauma for these children.

I have done a lot of counseling and coaching and feel good about the changes I am making, I like the idea of Retroville, but I am not sure I like the idea of agreeing to separation or divorce when I do not believe in and I don’t want it.

Am I shutting her out by not talking about it and saying it is against my beliefs? What would God want me to say to this?

 

[KnitNut]

Am I shutting her out by not talking about it and saying it is against my beliefs? What would God want me to say to this?

Yes, you are. What does your counselor suggest you do? “God would want you” to be a respectful spouse, listen (and truly HEAR) her concerns, and work with her to find solutions. While you may not “agree” with it, separation and divorce are both acceptable options within your faith, and both are valid choices for her to make. You realize that, should you opt out of the discussion entirely, you abdicate your responsibility to craft family dynamics and structures that benefit ALL members of the family. And she’d be right - she’d have no choice but to do it on her own. It’s called “cutting off your nose to spite your face.” In the first instance, you need to hear her out. If she’s serious, then involve a mediator NOW, so that you can protect yourself & the children as best you can. Really, burying your head is NOT going to win you any points with her, and it does a huge disservice to your family.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
Am I shutting her out by not talking about it and saying it is against my beliefs? What would God want me to say to this?

Yes, you are shutting her down by not listening to her. By choosing not to communicate over a critical issue. Is it because you are in denial over how serious she is about this?

What would God want you to say? I have no idea. I don’t know you, your relationship or her perspective on things. You need to figure out what’s driving this, you need to unemotionally (difficult, believe me I know) analyze everything she has said, everything she has done and asses the situation. Pray that God inspires you through that process to determine what to say AND what to do. Both for your marriage, and your kids.

 

[dannyd4007]

Counselor have told me to do, not to discuss it. They have told me that I should tell her I am focused on the marriage and that is where I need to spend my time and the Bible says,

But I can answer what the Catholic Church teaches on separation. If by separation, you mean divorce, she teaches it is not right. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man put asunder” Matthew 19:5-6 No man can break apart a marriage God has put together. "

I have listened to her knitnut, We have had many conversations over the last few months. I just don’t want to partake in this. I can’t look at my children and the Lord and say I believe in this…

I don’t want to control her, but I need to control myself.

You are right though I do have a quandary about the children and that has not been answered by the counselor though.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Counselor have told me to do, not to discuss it. They have told me that I should tell her I am focused on the marriage and that is where I need to spend my time and the Bible says,

But I can answer what the Catholic Church teaches on separation. If by separation, you mean divorce, she teaches it is not right. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man put asunder” Matthew 19:5-6 No man can break apart a marriage God has put together. "

I have listened to her knitnut, We have had many conversations over the last few months. I just don’t want to partake in this. I can’t look at my children and the Lord and say I believe in this…

I don’t want to control her, but I need to control myself.

You are right though I do have a quandary about the children and that has not been answered by the counselor though.

You can’t control her, only yourself. You can not control her choices. She can choose to separate or divorce even if the conditions do not exist which the Church would deem acceptable. She can discard the Catholic faith, just as she converted to it. Regardless of what you believe, she can, and will, choose her own path.

Now, again- read ‘Depression Fallout’. Figure out her motives, and what is driving her, and then determine your course of action in the best interests of your children. Because, what’s driving her may logically lead to both emotional and/or physical separation from the children.

 

[dannyd4007]

Thank you, I know you have my best interest at heart and you are right I can’t control her. Though I can control myself and I know agreeing to separation or divorce is not the way to go, so frankly as much as I hate to do it, (we have been through so much) this is one “Team” I cannot be on.

I know you all are praying for me to work this out and thanks for the resources.

How do you and Knitnut feel about about Retroville and mentioning that maybe we should try it and at that point talk about separation?

 

[styrgwillidar]

Thank you, I know you have my best interest at heart and you are right I can’t control her. Though I can control myself and I know agreeing to separation or divorce is not the way to go, so frankly as much as I hate to do it, (we have been through so much) this is one “Team” I cannot be on.

I know you all are praying for me to work this out and thanks for the resources.

How do you and Knitnut feel about about Retroville and mentioning that maybe we should try it and at that point talk about separation?

Listening is not agreeing.

Listening to her talk, particularly about her approach to separation/divorce will give insight into motivations and mental state. Is her plan for the kids to be with you? For you to keep the house to keep from disrupting their lives? Listen, analyze, assess, understand and that will assist in developing a plan of action for solutions- or making the best of what will occur.

I would say let’s try joint counseling, marriage encounter, and retrovaille first then look at options after that.

 

[Xantippe]

Listening is not agreeing.

Listening to her talk, particularly about her approach to separation/divorce will give insight into motivations and mental state. Is her plan for the kids to be with you? For you to keep the house to keep from disrupting their lives? Listen, analyze, assess, understand and that will assist in developing a plan of action for solutions- or making the best of what will occur.

I would say let’s try joint counseling, marriage encounter, and retrovaille first then look at options after that.

Right.

The most attractive thing about separation/divorce may be that she’d be able to offload the kids on you part of the week. She may even be envisioning just having them for the weekend.

Let her talk. You’ll learn a lot.

Work with your counselor on what to say in response. It might be that questions will be most helpful to assist her in clarifying her thinking. “How are you planning to take care of 5 difficult children by yourself?” would be my first one.

Is she working? Are you gone a lot? And are you well-off?

Sorry for all the questions, but they are relevant.

 

[dannyd4007]

Right.

The most attractive thing about separation/divorce may be that she’d be able to offload the kids on you part of the week. She may even be envisioning just having them for the weekend.

Let her talk. You’ll learn a lot.

Work with your counselor on what to say in response. It might be that questions will be most helpful to assist her in clarifying her thinking. “How are you planning to take care of 5 difficult children by yourself?” would be my first one.

Is she working? Are you gone a lot? And are you well-off?

Sorry for all the questions, but they are relevant.

I think that is exactly it from our conversations. She wants to be able to just get away from them and take them on weekends. I don’t think she has thought this out very well and I think that is part of the problem. I am going to have to be really careful in asking her questions as she gets defensive easily and she blames me for making her feel guilty. You know “the Catholic Guilt”. Anyhow she is working and no I am not gone a lot and no we are not well off. That is something else I don’t think she has thought about.

 

[dannyd4007]

Listening is not agreeing.

Listening to her talk, particularly about her approach to separation/divorce will give insight into motivations and mental state. Is her plan for the kids to be with you? For you to keep the house to keep from disrupting their lives? Listen, analyze, assess, understand and that will assist in developing a plan of action for solutions- or making the best of what will occur.

I would say let’s try joint counseling, marriage encounter, and retrovaille first then look at options after that.

I can listen as long as I can tell her, "no, honey I am not part of the team to separate the family.

 

[hurtandhealing]

How do you and Knitnut feel about about Retroville and mentioning that maybe we should try it and at that point talk about separation?

I have heard of judges requiring couples to attend Retrouvaille prior to divorce. The reason being that it is mostly about couples in crisis learning to communicate better.

This could be the way to broach Retrouvaille with your wife. You are a couple in crisis given that she wants a divorce. You will always be a couple in that you will always have to co-parent your children. Maybe instead of focusing on the marriage, you can use focus on the communication.

That is a way to follow through if she is insistent. She wants to talk about the details of separation. You want to first work on your communication skills together. Afterward, she wants to work on the details, you use the skills to do so. You may find more leverage and also ways to show how you are changing and working.

 

[KnitNut]

But I can answer what the Catholic Church teaches on separation. If by separation, you mean divorce, she teaches it is not right. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man put asunder” Matthew 19:5-6 No man can break apart a marriage God has put together. "

Actually, THIS is what your church teaches, right from the Vatican’s mouth:

The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. (CCC 2383)

So, now that you understand that her position may be perfectly acceptable to your church, in this situation, I encourage you to ask your counselor (this is a credentialed counselor, yes?) how to have this conversation with her. It sounds like things are going to be changing in your home whether she stays or goes. You need to hear and address her concerns, PERIOD. You can do it quietly at home, or in the presence of a counselor, or in family mediation (that’s a real “thing”, apart from divorce - check it out), or before a judge. Honestly, since things seem quite out of hand at this point, I would suggest a professional be present…my sense is, if it’s just the 2 of you, your tendency to overlook her concerns is going to continue to be a problem. An agreed 3rd party will facilitate the discussion and help ensure that you both are heard. And hopefully you’ll come out with a written plan of specific action steps you, “each” and “both” are going to enact, with plans to reevaluate in a finite interval.

I can’t speak to Retrouvaille. If she doesn’t want to spend time with you, then locking her in a room with you for the weekend seems…problematic. Joint counseling may help, but I do think she needs her own support person (counselor, etc), too. She may be more reasonable and grounded if she’s feeling empowered and competent with her thoughts, emotions, and needs.

I agree in the abstract with your counselor - “do” is more important than “say”. However, you need to be doing the “right” things…what is your specific action plan, personally, and how are you assessing/reevaluating/adjusting it? A good counselor will help you formulate this. You may find a written plan useful, as a daily goal/task organizer and assessment tool.

You’re right, this upheaval is tragic for the children (whether you remain together or not). Kids pick up on these things, even if you think you’re being “careful” around them. Do your children have counselors? Their counselors or pediatricians (or the medical facility’s family support team) should have recommendations for a good family counselor/facilitator/mediator. Too much is at stake for them, I would not go it alone.

 

[Xantippe]

I think that is exactly it from our conversations. She wants to be able to just get away from them and take them on weekends. I don’t think she has thought this out very well and I think that is part of the problem. I am going to have to be really careful in asking her questions as she gets defensive easily and she blames me for making her feel guilty. You know “the Catholic Guilt”. Anyhow she is working and no I am not gone a lot and no we are not well off. That is something else I don’t think she has thought about.

At some later point (after you’ve tried other stuff), it might be worthwhile to draw up a dummy budget with her, showing the effects of supporting a second household on your not-so-fat joint income: rent, utilities, one-time purchase of duplicate household items, etc. Hopefully, you have an existing budget, so you can demonstrate that a lot of current nice things would have to be sacrificed in order to support two households. The house (if there is one) would have to be sold, kids taken out of activities (I think that would be VERY bad), maybe even sell cars, etc.

Your wife can’t keep your current lifestyle and just tack an extra household onto it–stuff you have and do now will have to go.

That said, it would probably be a good idea to have a look at your budget to see if you aren’t overspending on kid stuff and underspending on joint adult fun. (Most of us do.) And that would be a totally reasonable thing to talk about.