Might Judas be in Heaven?

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m afraid you have quite the wrong idea about God’s justice if you think Judas HAD to go to hell. Not at all. The pitiable thing is that Judas could have been saved but refused.

How was his sin any worse than that of Peter’s? Jesus predicted that Peter would betray him, as well remember. That’s betrayed him–just like Judas did. Peter denied that he even knew Jesus, this after being appointed the head of the Apostles by Jesus himself, after he’d been favored with a closer relationship with the Lord than the other except for James and John. Peter had more reason to be called out as a betrayer than Judas who was merely a “second stringer.”

Besides this, you are quite wrong that God’s justice demanded Judas go to hell. Only because he didn’t repent–like any other miserable sinner who doesn’t repent deserves hell. That’s why, not because God’s justice needs any kind of balancing. God isn’t a juggler. He wants to be merciful, longs to be merciful, bends over backwards to be merciful. But, Judas, like Peter, and the rest of us, exercised his free will and chose to remain unrepentant. It may be that he simply couldn’t give up his sins–he was a thief according to the Gospels. But another theif repented and Jesus told him he’d be with him in paradise. No, Judas was no worse than any other sinner with mortal sin on his soul–the only difference is that he refused God’s merciful love. It’s that simple.

I’d like to point out that he refused God’s mercy as far as we know. We will never know this side of Heaven if Judas repented in those final seconds before his death. Padre Pio made it quite clear through some of his revelations that that instant between the decision to take your life and when your life actually ends is plenty of time to repent and cry out to God for mercy. (There was one instance where a mother was worried about the soul of her son who had committed suicide. Padre Pio was given divine knowledge that he had repented of his action before he died and had received God’s mercy.)

My personal belief is that Judas is in Hell, after all, Christ did say it would have been better for him never to have been born. That said, I hold out hope that Judas repented before he died and was given God’s mercy. After all, if Judas, the man who literally betrayed God in the flesh, can be saved then there’s hope for anyone.

 

[Della]

I’d like to point out that he refused God’s mercy as far as we know. We will never know this side of Heaven if Judas repented in those final seconds before his death. Padre Pio made it quite clear through some of his revelations that that instant between the decision to take your life and when your life actually ends is plenty of time to repent and cry out to God for mercy. (There was one instance where a mother was worried about the soul of her son who had committed suicide. Padre Pio was given divine knowledge that he had repented of his action before he died and had received God’s mercy.)

My argument was based on the premise that Judas refused God’s mercy, based on HoosierDaddy’s insistence that God’s justice depended on Judas’ damnation. I tried to show that it wasn’t necessary for Judas to be damned for his sins except if he refused to do so.

My personal belief is that Judas is in Hell, after all, Christ did say it would have been better for him never to have been born. That said, I hold out hope that Judas repented before he died and was given God’s mercy. After all, if Judas, the man who literally betrayed God in the flesh, can be saved then there’s hope for anyone.

My thoughts, as well.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

My argument was based on the premise that Judas refused God’s mercy, based on HoosierDaddy’s insistence that God’s justice depended on Judas’ damnation. I tried to show that it wasn’t necessary for Judas to be damned for his sins except if he refused to do so.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. I read it as an absolute statement that he was damned, just not for the reason given by the other poster ^^

My thoughts, as well.

I honestly hope he is in Heaven, not just because I hope for salvation for all people, but because I’d like the opportunity to talk to him and ask him what lead to his actions. I know they say that part of it was greed, and I’m not saying the Gospel writers got it wrong, but that seems so… stupid…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m afraid you have quite the wrong idea about God’s justice if you think Judas HAD to go to hell. Not at all. The pitiable thing is that Judas could have been saved but refused.

How was his sin any worse than that of Peter’s? Jesus predicted that Peter would betray him, as well remember. That’s betrayed him–just like Judas did. Peter denied that he even knew Jesus, this after being appointed the head of the Apostles by Jesus himself, after he’d been favored with a closer relationship with the Lord than the other except for James and John. Peter had more reason to be called out as a betrayer than Judas who was merely a “second stringer.”

Besides this, you are quite wrong that God’s justice demanded Judas go to hell. Only because he didn’t repent–like any other miserable sinner who doesn’t repent deserves hell. That’s why, not because God’s justice needs any kind of balancing. God isn’t a juggler. He wants to be merciful, longs to be merciful, bends over backwards to be merciful. But, Judas, like Peter, and the rest of us, exercised his free will and chose to remain unrepentant. It may be that he simply couldn’t give up his sins–he was a thief according to the Gospels. But another theif repented and Jesus told him he’d be with him in paradise. No, Judas was no worse than any other sinner with mortal sin on his soul–the only difference is that he refused God’s merciful love. It’s that simple.

'm afraid you have quite the wrong idea about God’s justice if you think Judas HAD to go to hell. Not at all. The pitiable thing is that Judas could have been saved but refused.

Yes, this was my point. God’s justice is perfect. I dont know where you got the idea that I think Judas’s betrayal was orse than Peter’s denial. It might have been, but I thought I was clear about not being that offended by the actual betrayal. But rather offended at the idea that with no indicated PROPER repentance he could be in heaven…

How was his sin any worse than that of Peter’s? Jesus predicted that Peter would betray him, as well remember. That’s betrayed him–just like Judas did. Peter denied that he even knew Jesus, this after being appointed the head of the Apostles by Jesus himself, after he’d been favored with a closer relationship with the Lord than the other except for James and John. Peter had more reason to be called out as a betrayer than Judas who was merely a “second stringer.”

Though I think the actual betrayal of one’s friend is worse than outright cowardice, that was not my point and was not my assertion. Peter was not saved because his sin was better or worse than Judas, but because he repented and then became Holy and Good. Up to the point not of killing himself out of fear cowardice or pity, but rather dying a proud brave martyr and quite humbly I might add.
I have venerated his bones. I think I would die of fear if I were exposed to Judas’s bones.

Besides this, you are quite wrong that God’s justice demanded Judas go to hell. Only because he didn’t repent–like any other miserable sinner who doesn’t repent deserves hell. That’s why, not because God’s justice needs any kind of balancing. God isn’t a juggler. He wants to be merciful, longs to be merciful, bends over backwards to be merciful. But, Judas, like Peter, and the rest of us, exercised his free will and chose to remain unrepentant. It may be that he simply couldn’t give up his sins–he was a thief according to the Gospels. But another theif repented and Jesus told him he’d be with him in paradise. No, Judas was no worse than any other sinner with mortal sin on his soul–the only difference is that he refused God’s merciful love. It’s that simple.

This is exactly what I believe. I am sorry I did not clarify that well enough.
God’s Justice demands repentance.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I honestly hope he is in Heaven, not just because I hope for salvation for all people, but because I’d like the opportunity to talk to him and ask him what lead to his actions. I know they say that part of it was greed, and I’m not saying the Gospel writers got it wrong, but that seems so… stupid…

Why? Oh why? would you wish injustice to satisfy your own curiosity? You want to find out what he did, ask Jesus when you get there. I “hope” he is in hell, because I cannot imagine a heaven with him in it given what we know about him. Nor would I understand what kind of God would allow it. Now if there were some information we for some reason were not given.,… But that is like saying I hope dinosaurs are in heaven, it just has no basis in theology or the Bible!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But that is like saying I hope dinosaurs are in heaven, it just has no basis in theology or the Bible!

I’m going to start by addressing this point. What on earth do you mean there is no theological basis for it? “God wills that all men be saved.” That is basically -THE- underlying principle guiding so much of our faith. This will is extended to the greatest saint, and the most horrendously evil man. I hope for it because God hopes for, a statement I am confident in making because we know that it is his active will. You may not want to extend it to Judas, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t want to.

If Judas repented before his death, then his being in Heaven wouldn’t be an injustice any more than every other person who repents before their death (read: Everyone in salvation history, save Mary and Jesus.) The Church teaches that no sin is beyond the mercy of God, that would include betraying God unto death. If that wasn’t covered by Christ’s sacrifice, then his sacrifice would be lacking. Since we believe that his sacrifice isn’t lacking, it follows that Judas’s betrayal would have been covered if he had repented.

Why would you not understand God allowing it? We all turn our backs on God constantly throughout our lives. That’s the entire reason he gave us the sacrament of reconciliation. No matter how terrible our deeds, God is patiently waiting for us to turn to him with a contrite heart, tell him we’re sorry, and ask for his forgiveness. The gravity of our sin, the amount of damage we’ve done, and whom we’ve directly affected have no affect on God’s willingness to forgive us. Keep in mind, Adam and Eve directly betrayed God as well. They had full and perfect knowledge of Him and still chose against him. Sure, it didn’t result in any physical pain for God at that moment, but imagine the emotional pain that rejection must have inflicted, and how much emotional pain our sins continue to inflict. If he was literally willing to die a horrific and painful death for people who hurt him more than love him, why wouldn’t that boundless mercy and grace also apply to Judas?

Again, I’d like to emphasize that this would all be dependent on Judas’s repentance, and I honestly doubt he repented; I think he’s in Hell. That said, I hope that he, along with everyone else in history, accepted God’s mercy, repented, and is in Heaven. I know that’s probably not the case, but that doesn’t make it wrong to hope for it.

Also, I think it’d be amazing if there were dinosaurs in Heaven, dinosaurs are awesome! I went to a natural history museum yesterday and got to see some new fossils, and I am thoroughly convinced that God created dinosaurs because he knew how awesome we’d find them. They’re a gift to us ^^

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m going to start by addressing this point. What on earth do you mean there is no theological basis for it? “God wills that all men be saved.” That is basically -THE- underlying principle guiding so much of our faith. This will is extended to the greatest saint, and the most horrendously evil man. I hope for it because God hopes for, a statement I am confident in making because we know that it is his active will. You may not want to extend it to Judas, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t want to.

If Judas repented before his death, then his being in Heaven wouldn’t be an injustice any more than every other person who repents before their death (read: Everyone in salvation history, save Mary and Jesus.) The Church teaches that no sin is beyond the mercy of God, that would include betraying God unto death. If that wasn’t covered by Christ’s sacrifice, then his sacrifice would be lacking. Since we believe that his sacrifice isn’t lacking, it follows that Judas’s betrayal would have been covered if he had repented.

Why would you not understand God allowing it? We all turn our backs on God constantly throughout our lives. That’s the entire reason he gave us the sacrament of reconciliation. No matter how terrible our deeds, God is patiently waiting for us to turn to him with a contrite heart, tell him we’re sorry, and ask for his forgiveness. The gravity of our sin, the amount of damage we’ve done, and whom we’ve directly affected have no affect on God’s willingness to forgive us. Keep in mind, Adam and Eve directly betrayed God as well. They had full and perfect knowledge of Him and still chose against him. Sure, it didn’t result in any physical pain for God at that moment, but imagine the emotional pain that rejection must have inflicted, and how much emotional pain our sins continue to inflict. If he was literally willing to die a horrific and painful death for people who hurt him more than love him, why wouldn’t that boundless mercy and grace also apply to Judas?

Again, I’d like to emphasize that this would all be dependent on Judas’s repentance, and I honestly doubt he repented; I think he’s in Hell. That said, I hope that he, along with everyone else in history, accepted God’s mercy, repented, and is in Heaven. I know that’s probably not the case, but that doesn’t make it wrong to hope for it.

Also, I think it’d be amazing if there were dinosaurs in Heaven, dinosaurs are awesome! I went to a natural history museum yesterday and got to see some new fossils, and I am thoroughly convinced that God created dinosaurs because he knew how awesome we’d find them. They’re a gift to us ^^

If Judas repented before his death, then his being in Heaven wouldn’t be an injustice any more than every other person who repents before their death (read: Everyone in salvation history, save Mary and Jesus.)

If if and ands were pots and pans there would be no room for tinkers.

I hope there are unicorns in heaven.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If if and ands were pots and pans there would be no room for tinkers.

I hope there are unicorns in heaven.

I don’t think this qualifies as a rebuttal to -anything- I said.

The Church has never made a declaration on the subject, so your absolute insistence is misplaced and improper. We can believe Judas is in Hell all we want, I do believe it, but you can’t state it as fact like you’re trying to do.

 

[powerofk]

As I stated before - taking Matthew’s account, if Judas fully repented while he was committing suicide, he could be in Heaven. Taking Luke’s account, if Judas truly believed that Jesus was blaspheming (which, in the OT law was a capital offense), his culpability would have been lessened - as, though it is a grave sin to betray an innocent person, it is one’s duty to let a guilty person be judged accordingly with the law.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t think this qualifies as a rebuttal to -anything- I said.

The Church has never made a declaration on the subject, so your absolute insistence is misplaced and improper. We can believe Judas is in Hell all we want, I do believe it, but you can’t state it as fact like you’re trying to do.

It was a rebuttal but I typed a bigger one and I thankfully copied it after that last weird post. The main rebuttal is this. For those who think Judas can be in heaven, there is just as much evidence of that as unicorns being there too.
Here is the rest of my post.

If Judas repented before his death, then his being in Heaven wouldn’t be an injustice any more than every other person who repents before their death (read: Everyone in salvation history, save Mary and Jesus.)

If if and ands were pots and pans there would be no room for tinkers.

I hope there are unicorns in heaven.

One thing I don’t understand is this seeming denial of hell and the population thereof these days. I think it is perhaps because we have moved away from the Traditions and art of the past, and into a more relative world. Part of it also could be the old stereotype of Catholics not being avid scripture readers. But following history, art, theologians and all, history seems to be a thing of embarrassment these days. One look at “The Last Judgement” in the Sistine Chapel and one can tell that there is a disconnect in our modern view of salvation.

Judas is in Hell. The Church does not need to proclaim this because it is pretty clear. It is also meaningless in regards to my salvation.
God willed the salvation of the Angels, yet some fell. God willed the Salvation of Satan, but yet I find Joy and relief in knowing he will not be in heaven, nor have access to heaven. God did not will that Adam and Eve sin, thereby affecting our entire salvation and closing the gates of heaven. So, God not willing the damnation of anyone is something we agree on. God wishes all COULD be saved.
I do not understand and have no use for a theology that ignores these things. I have no use for a Church or a God who is not perfect in His Judgement. That Hell was created and populated is a Holy thing. It is Holy because it is part of God’s economy of immortality and he is the sole holder of all understanding of what is fair and not fair. And He is based in Love and Truth.
And our Savior and Lord has chosen to communicate with His creations, to live with us, to be with us and to lead us. And he has not chosen to give any indication of any sort of salvation of Judas, either because He thinks it is a given, or He sees no value in elaborating further. But if one can see the great art of the past, read the great theologians, read the visions of the saints, stand in front of the Last Judgement, Read the Bible about hell and the reality thereof, and read the warnings and read the very Words of God about Judas and come away with the idea that he is not in hell, well, That would be a very odd viewpoint to me.

So I will continue to hope and be happy that Judas is in Hell. Because his outcome HAS to be fair, Just and Holy. And we should rejoice in that because God is all good. And His justice is all fair and Loving.

God does not owe you or I or Judas Salvation. It is a gift. And we do not presume to dictate to our Creator what is fair.

One of the things that is often missed in our western way of life, is injustice. The suffering and toil of this world and some in it. People who are empoverished severly, persecuted, and living a life that you or I would probably not be cut out to survive. These people have a keen sense of Justice and a Hope for such justice. Psalm 109 describes this in even a King and leader of a people.

One other thing. Why so much condemning of those who believe that someone like Judas is in Hell? Why not the same irrational defense of those of us who derive joy from this thought? If people spent half the time saying that any view that takes a more harsh or historical or “conservative” view is ok as they give the betrayer of Mankind there really should be no condemnation of anyone.

Like I said, I feel quite confident standing in front of God and saying, Father, thank you for your Justice in this matter. Please, use your Holy Standards to judge me. I Love you and I have drank in your mercy, not disbelieved, discarded and killed myself. I have repented with my heart, not because I fear Hell, but because I have offended you. My God whom I should love above all others.

But I guess in some peoples theology Judas can be riding a unicorn at the gates of heaven, I just don’t understand how that jives with Catholicism and Christianity.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It was a rebuttal but I typed a bigger one and I thankfully copied it after that last weird post. The main rebuttal is this. For those who think Judas can be in heaven, there is just as much evidence of that as unicorns being there too.
Here is the rest of my post.

If if and ands were pots and pans there would be no room for tinkers.

I hope there are unicorns in heaven.

One thing I don’t understand is this seeming denial of hell and the population thereof these days. I think it is perhaps because we have moved away from the Traditions and art of the past, and into a more relative world. Part of it also could be the old stereotype of Catholics not being avid scripture readers. But following history, art, theologians and all, history seems to be a thing of embarrassment these days. One look at “The Last Judgement” in the Sistine Chapel and one can tell that there is a disconnect in our modern view of salvation.

I am making no such denial. I am sadly very sure that Hell has plenty of souls in it. That’s not the point of the discussion or of my posts. Your posts are, effectively, denying the possibility of Judas’s redemption. This is completely contrary to EVERYTHING the Church teaches. Even though I do not believe he repented in the slightest, that doesn’t change the fact that the option was there.

Judas is in Hell. The Church does not need to proclaim this because it is pretty clear. It is also meaningless in regards to my salvation.

You CANNOT state that, you do not have the authority or the knowledge to state it as an absolute fact. If the Church hasn’t made that declaration, then you certainly do not have the authority to. You can believe it all you want, I DO believe it; but neither of us can make that statement.

God willed the salvation of the Angels, yet some fell. God willed the Salvation of Satan, but yet I find Joy and relief in knowing he will not be in heaven, nor have access to heaven.

The angels aren’t comparable to humans for the purposes of this discussion. They had complete and absolute knowledge of what their choice meant and are therefore incapable of revoking their decision. Humans are not subject to the same absolute decision until the very point of our death.

God did not will that Adam and Eve sin, thereby affecting our entire salvation and closing the gates of heaven. So, God not willing the damnation of anyone is something we agree on. God wishes all COULD be saved.

Agreed, and that extends to Judas.

I do not understand and have no use for a theology that ignores these things.

WE ARE NOT IGNORING ANYTHING! HAVE YOU READ OUR POSTS? PRETTY MUCH ALL OF US AGREE THAT JUDAS IS IN HELL. THAT IN NO WAY CHANGES THE FACT THAT HIS SALVATION IS JUST AS POSSIBLE AS EVERYONE ELSE WHO TURNS THEIR BACK ON GOD. (READ: EVERY LAST HUMAN BEING THAT HAS EVER EXISTED, EVERYONE, EXCEPT MARY AND JESUS.

I generally don’t type in all caps, but you seem oblivious to this, even though I’ve stated it in pretty much every post I’ve made. You are the one denying the Church’s tehology by making declarative statements that Judas is in Hell. This is not backed up by doctrine, no matter how much you would like it to be.

I have no use for a Church or a God who is not perfect in His Judgement.

Whether or not Judas’s damnation would be just or not is not up to you to decide, and by claiming that his salvation would be opposed to justice, you are placing yourself int he position of God.

That Hell was created and populated is a Holy thing. It is Holy because it is part of God’s economy of immortality and he is the sole holder of all understanding of what is fair and not fair. And He is based in Love and Truth.
And our Savior and Lord has chosen to communicate with His creations, to live with us, to be with us and to lead us. And he has not chosen to give any indication of any sort of salvation of Judas, either because He thinks it is a given, or He sees no value in elaborating further.

Then who are you to be making these definitive statements you’re making?

But if one can see the great art of the past, read the great theologians, read the visions of the saints, stand in front of the Last Judgement, Read the Bible about hell and the reality thereof, and read the warnings and read the very Words of God about Judas and come away with the idea that he is not in hell, well, That would be a very odd viewpoint to me.

As I have stated, ad nauseum, I DO NOT THINK HE REPENTED, I THINK HE IS IN HELL. I cannot put it any plainer than that. That doesn’t change the fact that we cannot know that this side of Heaven.

So I will continue to hope and be happy that Judas is in Hell. Because his outcome HAS to be fair, Just and Holy. And we should rejoice in that because God is all good. And His justice is all fair and Loving.

If he did not repent, then his damnation is both fair and just. If he did, then damnation would not be just. Since we cannot know if he repented, then we cannot make a statement either way. That is the point you seem to keep missing. You are making statements that are not backed by ANY church teaching.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

God does not owe you or I or Judas Salvation. It is a gift. And we do not presume to dictate to our Creator what is fair.

I agree.

One of the things that is often missed in our western way of life, is injustice. The suffering and toil of this world and some in it. People who are empoverished severly, persecuted, and living a life that you or I would probably not be cut out to survive. These people have a keen sense of Justice and a Hope for such justice. Psalm 109 describes this in even a King and leader of a people.

This really doesn’t have anything to do with the discussion. We cannot dictate what is just in God’s eyes.

One other thing. Why so much condemning of those who believe that someone like Judas is in Hell? Why not the same irrational defense of those of us who derive joy from this thought? If people spent half the time saying that any view that takes a more harsh or historical or “conservative” view is ok as they give the betrayer of Mankind there really should be no condemnation of anyone.

I’m not condemning anyone for THINKING Judas is in Hell. I think it! If I were condemning them then I would also be condemning myself. That is not the point of anything I’ve written, and the fact that you have missed that is sad and suggests that you haven’t actually been reading what I write. What I AM condemning is you making a declarative JUDGMENT on it, which you have neither the knowledge nor the authority to do, and which Christ explicitly forbid us form doing.

But I guess in some peoples theology Judas can be riding a unicorn at the gates of heaven, I just don’t understand how that jives with Catholicism and Christianity.

Then you are blind to the nature of God’s mercy, refusing to extend the possibility of it to even the worst of us. If Jesus Christ was willing to forgive the people who were LITERALLY driving nails through his hands, whipping him, ripping his flesh off his body, shoving thorns into his head and leaving him to suffocate, then I’d wager he’d be willing to forgive the person who made a mistake in betraying him, just as he did with Peter.

Again, just in case you’ve skipped over all of that, allow me to summarize it here.

I believe Judas is in Hell. I believe that Christ’s words on the subject tell us that he is in Hell. I think that Judas refused God’s mercy and redemption, and through his own choices has cur himself off from God for eternity. That in no way changes the fact that the possibility of redemption and mercy was just as available to him as it is to you and to me every time that we betray God in our daily lives. I am not saying he took advantage of it, but to deny the possibility of his redemption is to deny the boundless and loving mercy that God has waiting for all of it if we only chose to accept it.

This is the last I’m saying on the subject, as I cannot possibly state my position any clearer or more directly than in the paragraph above.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I agree.

This really doesn’t have anything to do with the discussion. We cannot dictate what is just in God’s eyes.

I’m not condemning anyone for THINKING Judas is in Hell. I think it! If I were condemning them then I would also be condemning myself. That is not the point of anything I’ve written, and the fact that you have missed that is sad and suggests that you haven’t actually been reading what I write. What I AM condemning is you making a declarative JUDGMENT on it, which you have neither the knowledge nor the authority to do, and which Christ explicitly forbid us form doing.

Then you are blind to the nature of God’s mercy, refusing to extend the possibility of it to even the worst of us. If Jesus Christ was willing to forgive the people who were LITERALLY driving nails through his hands, whipping him, ripping his flesh off his body, shoving thorns into his head and leaving him to suffocate, then I’d wager he’d be willing to forgive the person who made a mistake in betraying him, just as he did with Peter.

Again, just in case you’ve skipped over all of that, allow me to summarize it here.

I believe Judas is in Hell. I believe that Christ’s words on the subject tell us that he is in Hell. I think that Judas refused God’s mercy and redemption, and through his own choices has cur himself off from God for eternity. That in no way changes the fact that the possibility of redemption and mercy was just as available to him as it is to you and to me every time that we betray God in our daily lives. I am not saying he took advantage of it, but to deny the possibility of his redemption is to deny the boundless and loving mercy that God has waiting for all of it if we only chose to accept it.

This is the last I’m saying on the subject, as I cannot possibly state my position any clearer or more directly than in the paragraph above.

Maybe we are talking past each other. We agree Judas is in hell, we agree logically this makes sense. We agree that the Church has not said the sky is blue either.

 

[Della]

Maybe we are talking past each other. We agree Judas is in hell, we agree logically this makes sense. We agree that the Church has not said the sky is blue either.

No, we have not agreed to either of these statements–the second of which is plainly ridiculous. If you want to persist in believing that God’s justice could only be satisfied by Judas’ damnation–that’s up to you. But, it is NOT the teaching of the Church and Church teaching in NO WAY supports your idea.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, we have not agreed to either of these statements–the second of which is plainly ridiculous. If you want to persist in believing that God’s justice could only be satisfied by Judas’ damnation–that’s up to you. But, it is NOT the teaching of the Church and Church teaching in NO WAY supports your idea.

Then i really don’t think you have understood what I have said. Because I am confused.

The Church supports the idea that Judas is in hell, it does not teach it definitively. I think you are misunderstanding my view of Justice. Sorry for the confusion. In my mind it is plain as day and open and shut. And, my belief is in line with the Church, and with concepts of logic and theology.

If you have something new to put forth offering evidence of your opinion then that is fine, if we are just going to keep talking past each other then I fail to see the upside of continuing this…

 

[Della]

Then i really don’t think you have understood what I have said. Because I am confused.

The Church supports the idea that Judas is in hell, it does not teach it definitively. I think you are misunderstanding my view of Justice. Sorry for the confusion. In my mind it is plain as day and open and shut. And, my belief is in line with the Church, and with concepts of logic and theology.

If you have something new to put forth offering evidence of your opinion then that is fine, if we are just going to keep talking past each other then I fail to see the upside of continuing this…

We haven’t been talking past one another–you have been making statements that you cannot support–they are your conclusions and assumptions and nothing more. The discussion is over for me.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

No, we have not agreed to either of these statements–the second of which is plainly ridiculous. If you want to persist in believing that God’s justice could only be satisfied by Judas’ damnation–that’s up to you. But, it is NOT the teaching of the Church and Church teaching in NO WAY supports your idea.

If Judas is in hell it’s because he did not repent. If Judas is in Heaven or Purgatory it’s because he did repent with perfect contrition.

We don’t know.

I’ve seen a video of Bishop Fulton Sheen where he described a man refusing to confess or accept any sacraments at his deathbed. He would shout at the Bishop (I’m not sure if he was a Bishop yet at this event) to get out, to shut up, to leave him alone.

Bishop Sheen was distraught, and told him if he could please just pray the words, “Jesus have mercy on me, a sinner.”

He was told “NO!”

Bishop Sheen returned to the hospital and found that he had died. He asked the nurse if he had died alone. The nurse said yes, but when she checked on him he was repeating, “Jesus have Mercy on me a sinner.”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We haven’t been talking past one another–you have been making statements that you cannot support–they are your conclusions and assumptions and nothing more. The discussion is over for me.

The statements are supported by a basic reading of scripture, employment of logic, and a history of theology and art from the Church. If you have any rebuttal that brings to light salvation of Judas, please present it, if not, then yeah, there is no fruit to be had here.
I am curious why it would arouse such passion in you if someone believes Judas is in hell?
I am in line with Catholic theology believing he is in hell. That is not to say that the Church teaches this absolutely or even at all, but one would have to see that the lack of evidence for the opposite is astounding! So why the passion for something that has absolutely no basis in the Bible, in the History of the Church or in the economy of the concept of Justice and Mercy?

 

[edlinked]

People believe that judas maybe didn’t go to hell because we don’t understand God to the fullest. And we believe He is love and His hope and faith are limitless because only He is good. He is merciful.

And if God is love and we (beings that are not love) can sympathize, there is hope, because God is hope, not only for the good ones but for the ones in despair too (aren’t they the ones that need help).

But well we are talking things we don’t know, you can’t be fully sure of what God did, because you don’t know what judas felt (if he in fact repent). This possibility is what opens up the discussion. If you want to believe otherwise, its ok, but analyze that our understandings or yours, are only opinions. Our understandings are limited to our own knowledge and wisdom. As only God is God, and the ones that are closer are saints, so if you want to know the truth become a saint, because maybe God will enlighten you.

If judas when to hell I feel sorry for him the same way I believe anyone feels sorry to lose someone to hell, (as personally no one wants to go there if they knew what would you feel there). If he didn’t, its good as one more was saved.

Remember:

“and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;” Matthew 6, 12

When we judge, we tend to judge harshly, but when we are the ones that are judged we want them to be nice to us (because our excuses merit it, to us of course). But when talking about God He states that He sacrifices for us no matter if we are sinners because of love. (But of course we need to change our act though and follow God) This is why we can think judas might not be in hell. But we really don’t know. Remember that judas knew Jesus was going to die a horrible death, but did He saw Jesus alive, or believe that Jesus would resurrect?

Even some of the disciples didn’t believe Jesus would resurrect, so judas wouldn’t be alone in some assumptions. Therefore, in my case I can’t underestimate Gods hope, mercy, love, and faith, because I believe I don’t even know how God really acts, or I don’t feel why He acts a certain way, because I know I don’t act Gods ways.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Since it is Dante’s birthday today I thought this was interesting in light of this thread.
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/05/04/pope_franciss_message_to_mark_dante_alighieri_anniversary/1141510

In it the Pope refers to Dante

he Pope began by saying that he joined “the chorus of those who believe Dante Alighieri is an artist of the highest universal value, who still has much to say and to give, through his immortal works, to all those who are willing to walk the path of true knowledge”.

He said that a number of his predecessors including Blessed Paul VI , Pope Saint John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI had referred to Dante in Papal documents.
The Holy Father added that he himself in his first encyclical Lumen Fidei, chose to tap into the immense wealth of images, symbols, values contained in Dante’s works.
On the eve of the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy, the Pope said it was his hope that the celebrations of the 750th anniversary of Dante’s birth, like those in preparation for the VII centenary of His death in 2021, could again make Dante’s work understood and valued.
Through his writings, Dante, concluded Pope Francis, is a man who invites us to regain the path of our human journey and the hope to once again see the bright horizon where shines the full dignity of the human person.

It is important to note that the “Pope of Mercy” even after declaring a “year of Mercy” chooses to make a statement praising this artist and theologian of the Church. Surely it provides more evidence that a good Catholic can indeed hold that Judas is in Hell and find comfort in that. Because that is what Dante did.

I cannot recommend the divine comedy enough. It is a must-read and a classic work of literature. I don’t think one could have a complete and knowledgeable opinion on the subject of this thread without that reference.