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edlinked
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Is dante a saint?
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Nope. That is a pretty easy answer to find.
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edlinked
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So, is the divine comedy, truth, or a depiction for us to see how hell might be, in our limited minds? But might, is not the same as is, and should not be confused. In fact it can be very different. Dont you think? The same way as other religions might have “flashes” of truth but not necessarily the complete truth. And truth needs to be complete to be in fact truth.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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I was just making an observation of what the Pope said. If you wish to view it that way you can.
Sainthood does not in and of itself make the writings or even visions part of the deposit of faith. St. Faustina is a prime example. But it is of note that Saints did in fact use Dante as a reference and even the Pope himself has, along with BXVI and ST Pope John Paul II. Those are some pretty heavyweight theologians. I wouldn’t argue with them or their references that I would discount Dante Because of what you mentioned.
Nor do I think that Dante even has an accurate view of heaven or Hell. No more than I think the Passion of the Christ is exactly accurate. My point is, on may hold the same view as Dante and be fully Catholic and in line with the Church. Remember, Dante even put a saint in Hell. St Pope Celestine V Who abdicated the Papacy. (sound familiar) So we know that he is not speaking for the Church in who is in heaven or Hell, and surely most of his work is a political commentary. Hence St. Celestine V.
But certainly the depiction of Judas is not political in nature.
I’m curious how many apostles are declared in heaven? Answer. 12.
catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=8
But someone is noticeably missing don’t you think?
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powerofk
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Part of the reason why future saints used Dante in their commentary is due to the fact that Dante took the complicated theologies of Aquinas and Augustine (which one needs much more background to fully understand), and, through his poetic trilogy (as The Divine Comedy is a trilogy), made the concepts accessible to the common person. Sure, many of those in Hell were Dante’s personal enemies (btw, IIRC, St. Celestine V is not in Hell proper, but instead in the “vestibule” of Hell - for people whose crimes were simply doing nothing good or bad), but the theology of why the people in Hell are in Hell is sound. And, Dante makes it known that those in Hell specifically want to be there - and are unrepentant.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Ah yes, excellent points.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Today is the 750th anniversary of the birth of Dante, and the Italian’s will be celebrating many cultural events this month. . The Pope today spoke of Dante because in Rome the senate honored Dante with an event.
ansa.it/english/news/lifestyle/arts/2015/04/30/italy-celebrates-750th-dante-anniversary_eb0496aa-cce3-435a-81fc-1f55a0fb47bc.html
Dante was primarily a poet. He developed the “terza rima” that sadly doesn’t come across very well in the translations to English
The Divine Comedy is a theologically based poem. Dante was among the first to use the language that evolved to be Italian. I’ve never heard him referred to as a theologian. Philosopher, perhaps.
Dante put Judas in hell to be tortured for eternity for being a traitor. Lucifer is gnawing on him. Along with Lucifer is Brutus and Cassius. Also getting gnawed by Lucifer Odd that he would equate the gravity of the betrayal of the Lord, the the betrayal of Julius Caesar.
Dante depicts the center of hell as being in the frozen tears of Lucifer. It is so far away from God’s light that it is barren and cold.
It seems fitting that the Pope would comment on it today/
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jerome_ky
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I think we need to clarify something, and if I’m not addressing what you’re saying, well, forgive me
I think we have internalized the idea of “judging others” to the point of thinking we must have nothing but charitable thoughts for everyone. I believe Judas is in hell, but it was not my judgment of him that has put him there. I don’t have the ability to judge Judas, he lived 2000 years ago. The admonition not to judge is not to judge our brothers/sisters in Christ, not to take them to the jailer if they owe us money, not to press charges, so to speak, and not to avenge “eye for an eye.” If we feel that someone has done us wrong, we’re to speak with that person, then bring them to the church and discuss the issue in front of witnesses. That is a far cry from my believing that Judas is in hell. I know only God can consign someone to hell, but the implicit message from the Gospels is that Judas would end up there.Another example would be the two thieves crucified with Jesus. One, the “bad thief,” judges and accuses Jesus, while the other, the “good thief,” admonishes the bad thief and then asks Jesus to remember him. Jesus says he will be with Him today in paradise. So, when Jesus said that, was He speaking to both thieves? We would naturally, from context, say no, and yet we don’t know that Jesus wasn’t addressing both of them, because the Gospel doesn’t say it. And the reason it doesn’t say it is that no one would be expected to think so. There is a moral context that says Jesus is giving assurance to the good thief and not the bad one. And the same applies to the question of the final disposition of Judas. Is it possible that God, Who is all-powerful and all-sovereign, planned the salvation of Judas? Yes, of course. But we have no reason to think so. It is more presumptuous of us to assume the opposite of the clear moral message, than to assume that Jesus was not speaking accurately when He called Judas the son of perdition, and told His followers that broad is the way to perdition but to enter at the strait gate.
Is this all my opinion? Absolutely, but that doesn’t make it wrong.
Seriously, I think the Gospels are there for us as a warning, and we must “work out our salvation in fear and trembling” and not assume we are good to go because “God is too loving to send anyone to hell.” That is a very dangerous thought and is not supported by Scripture. Jesus said “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord” will enter Heaven, and that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. That’s the Second Person of the Trinity talking there.
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oneofmany
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edlinked
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Jerome_ky, I concur that we cannot go assuming we are good to go because God is love. That is certainly not what I was trying to imply, as hell is a real place.
What I am saying is that you forgive those that do wrong, as if they do no wrong you don’t need to forgive them. Of course once forgiven we need to keep on the correct path (Judas hung himself after he understood what he did, but he didn’t get God, because later his despair drove him to hang himself). Judas never saw God for the God He was, he never understood why Jesus was there, he didn’t understood Gods love. People need humility because we need to depend on God to correct our acts, but Judas didn’t have faith and hope towards God (at least the way he needed to). Jesus says to the Father to forgive us because we don’t know what we are doing. We don’t know what we are doing because we are blinded by “ourselves”, in a sense. We need God to give love, but in the means we go away from God we will not love and we will not act as God want us to (we will not have hope or faith either).
What I was meaning saying that these are our opinions, is that at the end of the day we don’t know what God knows, so we don’t have certainty of what happened (possibly saints do in a way, though). And sometimes our understanding doesn’t have all the wisdom it needs to give a correct answer, to get to the correct answer. An example is that some disciples didn’t understand that Jesus would resurrect, or didn’t know how it was going to happen. With this I am just saying that as we don’t know all, we need to keep faith, and hope in God, and that things that we don’t understand, they don’t matter if our faith and hope are in God, because He is love.
Oneofmany, thanks for the video. Mother Angelica is great.
What I am saying is that you forgive those that do wrong, as if they do no wrong you don’t need to forgive them. Of course once forgiven we need to keep on the correct path (Judas hung himself after he understood what he did, but he didn’t get God, because later his despair drove him to hang himself). Judas never saw God for the God He was, he never understood why Jesus was there, he didn’t understood Gods love. People need humility because we need to depend on God to correct our acts, but Judas didn’t have faith and hope towards God (at least the way he needed to). Jesus says to the Father to forgive us because we don’t know what we are doing. We don’t know what we are doing because we are blinded by “ourselves”, in a sense. We need God to give love, but in the means we go away from God we will not love and we will not act as God want us to (we will not have hope or faith either).
What I was meaning saying that these are our opinions, is that at the end of the day we don’t know what God knows, so we don’t have certainty of what happened (possibly saints do in a way, though). And sometimes our understanding doesn’t have all the wisdom it needs to give a correct answer, to get to the correct answer. An example is that some disciples didn’t understand that Jesus would resurrect, or didn’t know how it was going to happen. With this I am just saying that as we don’t know all, we need to keep faith, and hope in God, and that things that we don’t understand, they don’t matter if our faith and hope are in God, because He is love.
Oneofmany, thanks for the video. Mother Angelica is great.
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steve_b
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knowing what Judas knew, him taking his own life is not an act of repentance. His last act on earth was a mortal sin.
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pat
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I mentioned this in my RCIA class today, based of today’s Gospel.
I have been in online forums on the Catholic faith since 1984. This question, and the question of what avail our prayers interceding for Judas would have, make it one of the most common questions asked.
I have been in online forums on the Catholic faith since 1984. This question, and the question of what avail our prayers interceding for Judas would have, make it one of the most common questions asked.
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Ignatius
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Not bloody likely!
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MariaTheresa
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Suicide is not always a sin and this may be the situation for Judas
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ospch
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We do know Judas despaired after betraying Jesus. But we also know he repented. In Chapter 27 of Matthew’s Gospel in The Confraternity 1950 Edition of the New Testament, Matthew has Judas repenting, saying to the Chief Priest, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood…and went away and hanged himself with a hallter.” We believe if a person repents, Jesus will forgive him or her. And in Jesus, according to the Son of Man’s teachings, forgiving Judas, Judas must be in heaven. True Judas first repented and then hanged himself. Judas state of mind must have been frenzied after he expressed forgiveness and committed self-destruction. Be careful using the word “suicide.” There is a difference. What matter the sin committed, redemption is gained if the sinner is truly sorry for his sinful action. Along and behind the altar of the Cathedral of Saints Felim and Patrick in Cavan town, County Cavan, Ireland, are painted the Twelve Apostles. Looking at the altar on the left side is Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus Christ. Judas displayed inside a Catholic Cathedral doesn’t confirm Judas being in heaven. Judas’ repentance does.
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ljwahn
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ljwahn
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I have read that some scholars think Judas did what he did to force Jesus to become a military like Messiah to save Himself. The Jews expected the One to Come to be a ruler and King like David. This is theoretical of course.
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dbgallup
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John 17:12: Judas is referred to as the son of perdition by our Savior Himself.
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v21337304
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A quote from Douay-Rheims Bible John Chapter 17 verses 11 -12: Jesus in the last supper:
[11] And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. [12] While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.
Thus Judas is the son of perdition.
[11] And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. [12] While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.
Thus Judas is the son of perdition.
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