Mike Huckabee: U.S. moving toward 'criminalization of Christianity'

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RGCheek said:
Well given the criminalization of Biblical corporal punishment, the criminalization of expression of Biblical morality, and the criminalization of the moral right to follow your own conscience, it seems clear we are at the ‘criminalizing it’ stage but it isn’t yet fully overt.
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What exactly is biblical corporal punishment, and why is it something we should maintain?
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
This is typical political rhetoric. Because people are allowed to practice one way of life doesn’t mean that way of life is being forced on people who choose another way of life, for instance Christians. A lot of right wing conservative Christians seem to think that they’re being persecuted simply because they can’t tell everyone else how to live. Christians are allowed to shun any type of lifestyle they like. What we can’t do is tell everyone else what to believe or how to live, and insofar as the sanctity of marriage is concerned, I think most people should worry about how they conduct their own affairs with regard to their marriages and stop worrying about other people’s marriages. Your own house is always a good place to get in order.
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Well although I’m not in agreement with Mr. Huckabee, I think you’re oversimplify the situations. There have been several situations in the US and elsewhere that has negatively affected Christians. Off the top of my head (and many of these have already been addressed).
  • Wearing a crucifix as a while being a doctor, lawyer, or government worker (Quebec)
  • Being forced to provide services for same-sex weddings (basically everywhere)
  • Forcing doctors to referr for contracepives, abortions, euthanasia, and other ethical no-no’s. In some cases, even forcing doctor’s to perform those services.
  • Preventing pro-life people from entering into government (Canada)
  • A general antipathy towards all things Christian
Freedom of conscience is definitely at stake in the Western world if you hold to a traditional Christian world view. This is about Christians forcing their beliefs on others; rather, it’s about Christians not being forced to cooperate with activities they find immoral without a compelling reason. That’s something that is legitimately concerning (or should be) for all all people.
 
RGCheek said:
To fight as one individual or one family against a Leviathan is suicide. A better stratagem is to hide and await the awakening of our clergy, our shepherds to protect us as is their God given duty and role, and pray that it isn’t too long a wait.
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May want to think this one through a bit, noting there were 410,593 priests in the world in 2010, the number of bishops in the world was 5,104 and the number of Catholics in the world was 1,196,000,000 (that is 1.196 billion). So even if we subtract the priests and the bishops from the number of Catholics that still puts the clergy as less than 0.04% of the Catholic population in the world. It would seem that the first line of defense should be us, with the support of the Sacraments given to us by the clergy (which is actually their job) to give us the graces that we will need to fight the good fight.
 
DCNBILL said:
May want to think this one through a bit, noting there were 410,593 priests in the world in 2010, the number of bishops in the world was 5,104 and the number of Catholics in the world was 1,196,000,000 (that is 1.196 billion). So even if we subtract the priests and the bishops from the number of Catholics that still puts the clergy as less than 0.04% of the Catholic population in the world. It would seem that the first line of defense should be us, with the support of the Sacraments given to us by the clergy (which is actually their job) to give us the graces that we will need to fight the good fight.
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Some might say that the clergy has not exactly been as proactive as it could be in helping people to wake up to what is going on.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
Abortion is different from kosher foods, isn’t it?
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Yes, Torah (Orthodox) Judaism takes a subtle, complicated view on abortion, neither outright banning it nor supporting it, but not such a view on kosher food despite the complexities involved in the regulations of the latter.
 
ishii said:
Some might say that the clergy has not exactly been as proactive as it could be in helping people to wake up to what is going on.

Ishii
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It seems to me that is painting with a pretty wide brush. As in many professions there are the good and the bad. Aside from that, the real job of the priesthood is to administer to us the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Confession, Anointing of the Sick as well as Marriage and the funeral rites. As a fairly large parish of about 3,500 families we average 3 funerals a week, that is 3 vigil services, 3 funeral Masses and 3 committals. To this in a weeks time add 12 hours in visitation to hospital patients (communion, confession and anointing). Add to that 18 Masses a week with the homily prep tacked on as well as numerous sick calls at all hours of the day or night. Add to this, planning meetings for parish and the school as well as diocesan and deanery meetings as well as multiple other duties I may not even know about. I really do not know where the priests have time to find out what is going on themselves.:confused:
 
MacBP said:
Well although I’m not in agreement with Mr. Huckabee, I think you’re oversimplify the situations. There have been several situations in the US and elsewhere that has negatively affected Christians. Off the top of my head (and many of these have already been addressed).
  • Wearing a crucifix as a while being a doctor, lawyer, or government worker (Quebec)
  • Being forced to provide services for same-sex weddings (basically everywhere)
  • Forcing doctors to referr for contracepives, abortions, euthanasia, and other ethical no-no’s. In some cases, even forcing doctor’s to perform those services.
  • Preventing pro-life people from entering into government (Canada)
  • A general antipathy towards all things Christian
Freedom of conscience is definitely at stake in the Western world if you hold to a traditional Christian world view. This is about Christians forcing their beliefs on others; rather, it’s about Christians not being forced to cooperate with activities they find immoral without a compelling reason. That’s something that is legitimately concerning (or should be) for all all people.
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Exactly. And yet some (including the poster you were responding to) insist that it is the Christians who are forcing their beliefs onto others, when its the other way around.

Recently a military chaplain was fired for “not showing tolerance and respect” in his ministry pertaining to marriage and homosexuality. He was fired for having the wrong religious views.

redstate.com/2015/03/15/navy-chaplain-fired-christian/

I wonder how much longer until the government tries to force Catholic churches to perform gay weddings or punishes for hate crimes pastors and priests who preach on sanctity of marriage, etc. ? So far the Democrat / liberal Catholics have downplayed this, saying there is nothing at all to worry about. Yet, Hillary in a recent speech spoke of using political power to change religious views on abortion. Very creepy.

Ishii
 
DCNBILL said:
It seems to me that is painting with a pretty wide brush. As in many professions there are the good and the bad. Aside from that, the real job of the priesthood is to administer to us the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Confession, Anointing of the Sick as well as Marriage and the funeral rites. As a fairly large parish of about 3,500 families we average 3 funerals a week, that is 3 vigil services, 3 funeral Masses and 3 committals. To this in a weeks time add 12 hours in visitation to hospital patients (communion, confession and anointing). Add to that 18 Masses a week with the homily prep tacked on as well as numerous sick calls at all hours of the day or night. Add to this, planning meetings for parish and the school as well as diocesan and deanery meetings as well as multiple other duties I may not even know about. I really do not know where the priests have time to find out what is going on themselves.:confused:
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Totally valid points. I was generalizing. But would you not agree that the shear number of Catholics who thought it was perfectly okay to vote for Obama, and plan to vote for Hillary represent a great deal of moral confusion? Maybe our clergy needs to spend less time dealing with administration and more time preaching / leading the flock.

Let me give you an example: when pro-abortion rights politicians are enthusiastically invited to talk at archdiocesan events, it is no wonder that there is confusion as to the responsibility of a Catholic living in a democracy in light of Catholic moral teaching. I think you can connect the dots as to where I’m going with this - I can’t be too specific because there are forum rules that I don’t want to break.

Ishii
 
estesbob said:
So is Catholicism akin to an Iron Age mythology? Are there any absolute truths?

First you tell us there is no attack on Christianity. You backpedaled and tell us that the attack is just “trivial .” And then you tell us oh, by the way, religion is just ancient superstitions anyway
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Good Evening Estesbob: Myth doesn’t mean untrue. It means a held tradition. It does not imply truth or fiction.

All the best
Gary
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
the truth of the matter is that nobody really knows anything.

Again, the truth is that nobody knows anything about what all of this is.

The world could be anything. ANYTHING. We have no idea what it is or what we are or what consciousness is.

As for relativism, well, surprise - the world around us is relative.

Everything is relative.

The only undeniable truth anyone can say with certainty is that we don’t know anything.
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Ha. So why are you a Catholic? And isn’t your view expressed above an easy excuse for “anything goes.” After all, if there is no truth, no objective morality, then who are we to criticize anyone or anything? Do we owe the slave owners an apology? Southern racists? On what basis do you stand up for any kind of justice?

If there is no truth, then how can you begin a sentence with “the truth is…” ?

Ishii
 
ishii said:
Ha. So why are you a Catholic? And isn’t your view expressed above an easy excuse for “anything goes.” After all, if there is no truth, no objective morality, then who are we to criticize anyone or anything? Do we owe the slave owners an apology? Southern racists? On what basis do you stand up for any kind of justice?

If there is no truth, then how can you begin a sentence with “the truth is…” ?

Ishii
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Ishii, I think you are taking a rather simplistic view. Nothing I have said implies that anything goes. I am simply asking you questions about the things you and others have posted. I have not in fact stated what my personal beliefs are on moral matters. I am simply curious about yours.

All the best
Gary
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Ishii, I think you are taking a rather simplistic view. Nothing I have said implies that anything goes. I am simply asking you questions about the things you and others have posted. I have not in fact stated what my personal beliefs are on moral matters. I am simply curious about yours.

All the best
Gary
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Gary, I am simply responding to the substance of your post - stating what I think is the logical conclusion of the belief that states: “there is no truth, everything is relative.” How about responding? Do you think morality is relative?

Generally speaking, that is how it works on CAF. People post their views, then others question or comment on those views, and it goes from there.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
Totally valid points. I was generalizing. But would you not agree that the shear number of Catholics who thought it was perfectly okay to vote for Obama, and plan to vote for Hillary represent a great deal of moral confusion? Maybe our clergy needs to spend less time dealing with administration and more time preaching / leading the flock.
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The role I am speaking of is the role of ‘signal caller’ so that the hot heads don’t jump the gun and those defending the atrocious situation are revealed to be without Catholic foundation for their claims.

Moving in concert is critical to successfully surviving these kinds of situations.
 
ishii said:
Gary, I am simply responding to the substance of your post - stating what I think is the logical conclusion of the belief that states: “there is no truth, everything is relative.” How about responding? Do you think morality is relative?

Generally speaking, that is how it works on CAF. People post their views, then others question or comment on those views, and it goes from there.

Ishii
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Good Morning Ishii: To say that all things are relative is not he same as saying that there is no truth. The statement in and of itself says that the truth is that all things are relative. Light is only known in relation to dark, good is known in relation to evil, up is only up in relation to something that is below, and so on. Photons do not produce light without an instrument to register light, which means we make light happen. Without instruments such as ears, sounds are only vibration in the air. The ultimate truth I personally am left with is that all things are dependent on the knower of things, which means that every living thing is absolutely fundamental to all things.

As for me not being able to erect a crucifix in my office or withhold health insurance from my employees because they might do something with it that I’m opposed to, none of this changes what is inside of me and doesn’t affect the manner in which I conduct my own life. I am free to live my life as a Catholic, but I have to allow others to follow whatever it is they believe or don’t believe insomuch as the law allows.

All the best,
Gary
 
ishii said:
Totally valid points. I was generalizing. But would you not agree that the shear number of Catholics who thought it was perfectly okay to vote for Obama, and plan to vote for Hillary represent a great deal of moral confusion? Maybe our clergy needs to spend less time dealing with administration and more time preaching / leading the flock.

Let me give you an example: when pro-abortion rights politicians are enthusiastically invited to talk at archdiocesan events, it is no wonder that there is confusion as to the responsibility of a Catholic living in a democracy in light of Catholic moral teaching. I think you can connect the dots as to where I’m going with this - I can’t be too specific because there are forum rules that I don’t want to break.

Ishii
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I am not aware of the incident cited and I do not doubt your word and this is unfortunate but I know that we will always have sinners among us as Christ promised. I also believe that the individual has the responsibility for themselves, you are obviously informed and understand the faith and what it means to be Christian, it seems that there is a lethargy in the Church that even the priests can not affect.

My example is a parents/sponsors Confirmation meeting last night. First I doubt half of the parents and less than a quarter of the sponsors were there and of the ones attending there were numerous ones that I did not recognize at all. Granted some of them may be with other parishes or go to Masses that I do not attend but it did seem there was less than a cool response to the speaker who I felt was quite good.

I guess all in all if we are going to combat the secular world of today we all need to step up our game and lift up those around us as well to stand our ground in our Faith and be the evangelizers that we are called to be in His name.
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Ishii, I think you are taking a rather simplistic view. Nothing I have said implies that anything goes. I am simply asking you questions about the things you and others have posted. I have not in fact stated what my personal beliefs are on moral matters. I am simply curious about yours.

All the best
Gary
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The problem is that you present the views in a way which indicates that they are your own. If they are not your own, what is your reason for posting them?
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Good Morning Ishii: To say that all things are relative is not he same as saying that there is no truth. The statement in and of itself says that the truth is that all things are relative. Light is only known in relation to dark, good is known in relation to evil, up is only up in relation to something that is below, and so on. Photons do not produce light without an instrument to register light, which means we make light happen. Without instruments such as ears, sounds are only vibration in the air. The ultimate truth I personally am left with is that all things are dependent on the knower of things, which means that every living thing is absolutely fundamental to all things.

As for me not being able to erect a crucifix in my office or withhold health insurance from my employees because they might do something with it that I’m opposed to, none of this changes what is inside of me and doesn’t affect the manner in which I conduct my own life. I am free to live my life as a Catholic, but I have to allow others to follow whatever it is they believe or don’t believe insomuch as the law allows.

All the best,
Gary
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If you are forced to pay for abc for someone else, you are being forced to commit a sin. Therefore, you are *not *permitted to live out your Faith, are you?
 
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