Mike Huckabee: U.S. moving toward 'criminalization of Christianity'

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Well - let me respond, and I hope you won’t write it off as an “attack”. To simply dismiss as an “attack” those who challenge your veiws would seem to go against the whole reason for posting on a forum, but oh well.

Quite simply, from a Catholic moral teaching perspective, war and capital punishment are not comparable to abortion which is intrinsically evil, and never justified. Again - that is not right wing talking points from the Mike Huckabee campaign, but actual Catholic teaching. Abortion is always morally wrong. War is not always morally wrong, but can be justified in some cases. The Catholic church has never taught that capital punishment is always wrong (although these days the church does seem to teach us that it is not necessary anymore). Abortion is always morally wrong. And yet, so many Catholics vote for politicians who keep it legal.

One could look at it this way: if we do not protect the most vulnerable - babies in the womb who are defenseless, who cannot run away from a scalpel or vacuum, then how can we even begin to be pro-life? What kind of society protects a serial killer from execution but is fine with abortion? Or is against war but does nothing to protect the unborn? Is such a person truly pro-life?

Anyway, I would hope you don’t view this as an attack.

Ishii

Good Morning Ishii: I am somewhat of an extremist when it comes to pro life issues, so I count capital punishment and unnecessary war right up there with abortion. It is my understanding that the Church is a bit more lenient on some of these issues than I am. I have gotten used to my tax money being used for things I disagree with morally, so I just pay attention to my own deeds for the most part, which is enough work for some of us.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I’m not saying that nothing is true. I’m saying that relativism doesn’t pass its own claim. If the statement, “everything is relative,” to what is the statement relative?

People get confused because they know down deep that is intended to confuse them. It cannot answer questions like I posed. I put it in the same category as polylogism.

Good evening Unstoppable: It’s called a tangled hierarchy or “strange loop.” It’s what happens when people think too much.

All the best
Gary

 

[ishii]

Good Morning Ishii: I am somewhat of an extremist when it comes to pro life issues, so I count capital punishment and unnecessary war right up there with abortion. It is my understanding that the Church is a bit more lenient on some of these issues than I am. I have gotten used to my tax money being used for things I disagree with morally, so I just pay attention to my own deeds for the most part, which is enough work for some of us.

All the best,
Gary

I think we need to be careful not to be absolutist to the point where we throw in the towel and refuse to the right thing when we can. For example, in the US, there currently is no war going on. There might be in the future, but right now its not a matter of sending US troops in or not, etc. Meanwhile, there were 35 executions in the US last year.

There were nearly a million abortions.

So based on that, why would you lump in war, capital punishment, and abortion together in terms of both moral gravity and urgency? Some might do that in order to conveniently justify supporting a candidate that is fundamentally opposed to Church teaching (not necessarily you are doing this).

Also, why is it impossible to pay attention to your own deeds while doing the right thing as a citizen / supporting life, etc ? I would hope the most vulnerable among us are worth that much.And are you implying that those who disagree with you are not extremely pro-life as you say you are? Deeds also include how we act as citizens in a democracy.

Ishii

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I think we need to be careful not to be absolutist to the point where we throw in the towel and refuse to the right thing when we can. For example, in the US, there currently is no war going on. There might be in the future, but right now its not a matter of sending US troops in or not, etc. Meanwhile, there were 35 executions in the US last year.

There were nearly a million abortions.

So based on that, why would you lump in war, capital punishment, and abortion together in terms of both moral gravity and urgency? Some might do that in order to conveniently justify supporting a candidate that is fundamentally opposed to Church teaching (not necessarily you are doing this).

Also, why is it impossible to pay attention to your own deeds while doing the right thing as a citizen / supporting life, etc ? I would hope the most vulnerable among us are worth that much.And are you implying that those who disagree with you are not extremely pro-life as you say you are? Deeds also include how we act as citizens in a democracy.

Ishii

Every life in peril at the hands of others is a matter of urgency Ishii, but I do understand your point. That said, I have been very active in the efforts to protect life for many years. It has been a very tiresome and discouraging endeavor.

All the best
Gary

 

[ishii]

Every life in peril at the hands of others is a matter of urgency Ishii, but I do understand your point. That said, I have been very active in the efforts to protect life for many years. It has been a very tiresome and discouraging endeavor.

All the best
Gary

I totally understand your discouragement: when much of the country, and so many Catholics support a party (Democrat) that is by, of and for the abortion lobby, NARAL, PP, etc. it can get quite discouraging. When so many Catholic politicians run as abortion rights Democrats, and so many catholics vote for them - its very discouraging. That is no reason to give up though. There are some positive developments: in states where Republicans control the legislature, many pro-life laws have been passed. We should be supporting them more.

Ishii

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I totally understand your discouragement: when much of the country, and so many Catholics support a party (Democrat) that is by, of and for the abortion lobby, NARAL, PP, etc. it can get quite discouraging. When so many Catholic politicians run as abortion rights Democrats, and so many catholics vote for them - its very discouraging. That is no reason to give up though. There are some positive developments: in states where Republicans control the legislature, many pro-life laws have been passed. We should be supporting them more.

Ishii

The problem with that position is that Republicans usually support capital punishment, gun ownership, and especially assault weapons, are prone to starting wars and promote an “every man for himself” society that does not care much for social programs that care for the sick or the poor. As much as social conservatives like to make Jesus a poster child for their agenda and throw His name around like He was the head of the Republican Party, the truth is that Jesus did care about the sick and the poor, and did not have much to say about guns and gays, which is the main interest of social conservatives. In fact, it’s the two things he didn’t talk about. But Jesus provided free healthcare. There were lots of healers and miracles workers in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Very successful ones. He was the only one who healed people for FREE. I think is Jesus were to appear here today, He would be totally baffled as to why Republicans mention Him at all, much less why they mention Him constantly. It’s ironic really. Moreover, the problem of supporting a culture of life transcends political party lines.

All the best,
Gary

 

[unstoppable_II]

The problem with that position is that Republicans usually support …

One writer summed up the Democratic Party as having a “fascination and obsession with death and communism that are the prime movers of its dementia.” :sad_yes:

I never heard it put any better.

 

[DerekTM]

What about those who were led into the Colliseum with fierce animals and other otrocities with which to face?

That was the Circus Maximus, not the Colosseum. The Colosseum hadn’t been constructed yet.

Just as the modern assumption that the Church was burning and torturing scientists is overblown, the same can be said about the Romans and Christians. There is very little evidence to support a pogrom of mass executions and torture of Christians.

 

[ishii]

The problem with that position is that Republicans usually support capital punishment, gun ownership, and especially assault weapons, are prone to starting wars and promote an “every man for himself” society that does not care much for social programs that care for the sick or the poor. As much as social conservatives like to make Jesus a poster child for their agenda and throw His name around like He was the head of the Republican Party, the truth is that Jesus did care about the sick and the poor, and did not have much to say about guns and gays, which is the main interest of social conservatives. In fact, it’s the two things he didn’t talk about. But Jesus provided free healthcare. There were lots of healers and miracles workers in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Very successful ones. He was the only one who healed people for FREE. I think is Jesus were to appear here today, He would be totally baffled as to why Republicans mention Him at all, much less why they mention Him constantly. It’s ironic really. Moreover, the problem of supporting a culture of life transcends political party lines.

All the best,
Gary

I think the above post is a perfect example of why the culture of death in this country continues to exist. The problem is the disconnect / complete lack of understanding among liberal Catholics of the reality of the evils of the secular left (i.e. modern Democrat party) on the one hand, and this caricature of Republicans as evil and non Christian on the other.

Truly, the unborn will continue to get slaughtered until some catholics learn to hate abortion / love the unborn, more than they hate Republicans / love Democrats.

Gary: consider the following words:

“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

Now, some might think that the above quote applies to federal funding of school lunches for children. However, I would venture to guess that Christ would not like the slaughter of the unborn children. I wonder what those who basically ignore abortion in order to promote their own partisan agenda will say when they meet their maker?

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

I think the above post is a perfect example of why the culture of death in this country continues to exist. The problem is the disconnect / complete lack of understanding among liberal Catholics of the reality of the evils of the secular left (i.e. modern Democrat party) on the one hand, and this caricature of Republicans as evil and non Christian on the other.

Truly, the unborn will continue to get slaughtered until some catholics learn to hate abortion / love the unborn, more than they hate Republicans / love Democrats.

Gary: consider the following words:

“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

Now, some might think that the above quote applies to federal funding of school lunches for children. However, I would venture to guess that Christ would not like the slaughter of the unborn children. I wonder what those who basically ignore abortion in order to promote their own partisan agenda will say when they meet their maker?

Ishii

Agreed-Their build of a Caricature of the GOP as evil personified in order to rationalize supporting intrinsic evils.

 

[zz912]

The problem with that position is that Republicans usually support capital punishment,

35 executions vs 1 million abortions. In this instance, you support the party which opposes the far greater evil, and work to change their minds on capital punishment (which is not opposed by Church teaching).

gun ownership, and especially assault weapons,

Is there something wrong with gun ownership?

are prone to starting wars

Both parties start wars at about the same ratio.

and promote an “every man for himself” society that does not care much for social programs that care for the sick or the poor.

Conservatives give FAAAAAR more to charity than liberals.

As much as social conservatives like to make Jesus a poster child for their agenda and throw His name around like He was the head of the Republican Party, the truth is that Jesus did care about the sick and the poor,

Are you claiming that social conservatives don’t care about the poor and sick?

and did not have much to say about guns and gays, which is the main interest of social conservatives. In fact, it’s the two things he didn’t talk about.

He did instruct His followers to purchase a sword. And He also whipped people in the Temple. He did speak about marriage being 1 man and 1 woman, and His apostles certainly condemned homosexual acts.

But Jesus provided free healthcare. There were lots of healers and miracles workers in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Very successful ones. He was the only one who healed people for FREE.

Unless you happen to be God, there is no such thing as “free”. Jesus can heal for free. For the rest of us, there is no such thing as “free”. People who claim there is such a thing as free healthcare really mean that someone else pays for it.

I think is Jesus were to appear here today, He would be totally baffled as to why Republicans mention Him at all, much less why they mention Him constantly. It’s ironic really.

Is there something in the Republican Party platform that is contrary to the teaching of the Church?

Moreover, the problem of supporting a culture of life transcends political party lines.

There is one political party that is an enemy to the culture of life.

 

[unstoppable_II]

…
There is one political party that is an enemy to the culture of life.

 

[unstoppable_II]

ishii;12939569:

…
Now, some might think that the above quote applies to federal funding of school lunches for children. …

The latest fraud is “universal pre-school” for children 4 years old. If you look up kindergarten, you will find that it is the universal pre-school to transition the child from home to school. IOW, obama’s is a redundant program if transition is the goal. But I suspect it is also intended to brainwash the child with Leftist anti-life programs. And when you are selling it “for the children,” opponents are easy targets for charges of being “anti-children” in a “war against children.”

It is also a jobs program for teachers unions for their support for you-know-whose party. It also means more votes.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The problem with that position is that Republicans usually support capital punishment, gun ownership, and especially assault weapons, are prone to starting wars and promote an “every man for himself” society that does not care much for social programs that care for the sick or the poor.

Broadbrush much? Maybe it’s because conservatives believe in the principle of subsidiarity. They devote much more of their time, treasure, and talent to help the poor than liberals.

As much as social conservatives like to make Jesus a poster child for their agenda and throw His name around like He was the head of the Republican Party, the truth is that Jesus did care about the sick and the poor, and did not have much to say about guns and gays, which is the main interest of social conservatives.

In fact, it’s the two things he didn’t talk about. But Jesus provided free healthcare. There were lots of healers and miracles workers in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Very successful ones. He was the only one who healed people for FREE. I think is Jesus were to appear here today, He would be totally baffled as to why Republicans mention Him at all, much less why they mention Him constantly. It’s ironic really. Moreover, the problem of supporting a culture of life transcends political party lines.

All the best,
Gary

Do you take a paycheck for your work? Do you expect doctors and hospitals to work for free?

 

[unstoppable_II]

Broadbrush much? Maybe it’s because conservatives believe in the principle of subsidiarity. They devote much more of their time, treasure, and talent to help the poor than liberals. Do you take a paycheck for your work? Do you expect doctors and hospitals to work for free?

I have a better challenge: Liberals should donate all their income above median to the government. It will accomplish several things: 1) it will help equalize incomes. 2) they will be putting their own money where their mouths are.

---

“Liberals never accuse you of ‘greed’ for wanting other people’s money – only for wanting to keep your own money.” – columnist Joe Sobran

 

[estesbob]

I have a better challenge: Liberals should donate all their income above median to the government. It will accomplish several things: 1) it will help equalize incomes. 2) they will be putting their own money where their mouths are.

I’ve told the story before but I’ll tell it again. I used to have a tax advice radio show on a local radio station back during the days when the left was livid about the Bush tax cuts . So I had a standing offer to prepare for free the tax return of anyone he wanted their return prepared using the tax rates in effect before the Bush cuts were implemented. Never had any takers

 

[qui_est_ce]

I have a better challenge: Liberals should donate all their income above median to the government. It will accomplish several things: 1) it will help equalize incomes. 2) they will be putting their own money where their mouths are.

---

“Liberals never accuse you of ‘greed’ for wanting other people’s money – only for wanting to keep your own money.” – columnist Joe Sobran

I’ve told the story before but I’ll tell it again. I used to have a tax advice radio show on a local radio station back during the days when the left was livid about the Bush tax cuts . So I had a standing offer to prepare for free the tax return of anyone he wanted their return prepared using the tax rates in effect before the Bush cuts were implemented. Never had any takers

It is sheer arrogance to think government can solve the problem of poverty. If anything, since 1965, “anti-poverty” programs have done much to exacerbate the break-down of the family and the ensuing poverty and in this country, especially among African-Americans.

Here is what JP II has to say about it: (Centesimus Annus)

Subsidiarity
A community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good (#48)…

By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.

 

[estesbob]

It is sheer arrogance to think government can solve the problem of poverty. If anything, since 1965, “anti-poverty” programs have done much to exacerbate the break-down of the family and the ensuing poverty and in this country, especially among African-Americans.

Here is what JP II has to say about it: (Centesimus Annus)

Equally as arrogant is the idea we see from so many Democrat Catholics that we can fulfill our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy by voting for someone who promises to take other peoples money and do it for us.

 

[ishii]

35 executions vs 1 million abortions. In this instance, you support the party which opposes the far greater evil, and work to change their minds on capital punishment (which is not opposed by Church teaching).

Is there something wrong with gun ownership?

Both parties start wars at about the same ratio.

Conservatives give FAAAAAR more to charity than liberals.

Are you claiming that social conservatives don’t care about the poor and sick?

He did instruct His followers to purchase a sword. And He also whipped people in the Temple. He did speak about marriage being 1 man and 1 woman, and His apostles certainly condemned homosexual acts.

Unless you happen to be God, there is no such thing as “free”. Jesus can heal for free. For the rest of us, there is no such thing as “free”. People who claim there is such a thing as free healthcare really mean that someone else pays for it.

Is there something in the Republican Party platform that is contrary to the teaching of the Church?

There is one political party that is an enemy to the culture of life.

Well done - way to make short work of a post that probably does even deserve such a well thought out response. Just a laundry list of talking points probably learned from leftist professors at university or watching Rachel Maddow. The only reason its worth responding to is because there byare actually people who might be inclined to think this, or lurkers who might be misled by such a post. I suspect that those who think such things about Republicans (that they are not Christian, etc) have their minds made up and will not listen to reason.

The idea that executing 35 ax murderers somehow rises to the level of butchering a million innocent unborn boggles the mind. And I say this being basically against the death penalty.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

I’ve told the story before but I’ll tell it again. I used to have a tax advice radio show on a local radio station back during the days when the left was livid about the Bush tax cuts . So I had a standing offer to prepare for free the tax return of anyone he wanted their return prepared using the tax rates in effect before the Bush cuts were implemented. Never had any takers

I never knew you had a tax advice show on the radio - interesting.

Liberals are very generous with other people’s money - which is great until you run out of others’ money, or the people move to another country / state. Great until reality hits.

Ishii