Mike Huckabee: U.S. moving toward 'criminalization of Christianity'

[Gary_Sheldrake]

…a knock-off of the Trinity that appeals to “more sensible and woman-friendly ideals,” theological syncretism, and a hollow feel-good version of St. Francis of Assisi’s manifesto: The Canticle of the Sun.

-Good Evening Wonder and Awe: Would you care to enlighten us on the first religion to have a Trinity?

-How about the first religion to have a virgin birth of an incarnation of God in human form?

-Or perhaps you could tell us what was the first religion to have a resurrection story?

I’ll give you a clue - in none of the cases above was it ours. Careful who you call a knock off religion. This is one of many reasons why we need to be respectful of the beliefs of others, which goes back to the theme of this thread. We complain of being under attack as Christians when you and your cohorts clearly have no qualms about attacking other people’s beliefs. We believe what we do, and others believe what they do. And while all of us have good story lines, the hard cold truth of the matter is that none of us, not one, has any proof whatsoever of any of it. But we all have faith, and you and your friends should consider learning something about having some respect and consideration for that, because in truth, what we believe is just as vulnerable and shaky in the cold light of day as anything anyone else believes. And if you think what we believe is novel in some way, do feel free to look up what religions we could be cited as having borrowed some of our traditions that I listed above from. If we want people to respect us, perhaps we should show some respect as well. Otherwise, you have no cause to complain.

And those contributions being a watered-down, theme park version of ancient beliefs that should have been tossed into history’s garbage disposal,

Sounds like something you borrowed from Atheists when they talk about us.

All the best,
Gary

 

[ishii]

Wow, I think this thread: Mike Huckabee: U.S. moving toward ‘criminalization of Christianity’
got a little side tracked somewhere.

You are right - it did get side tracked. But going off on tangents can be useful, in that it shows where some people are coming from. I mean, how could we take someone seriously on Huckabee and the issue of the criminalization of Christianity, when they say such things as: "we need to recognize the value of the Wiccan contribution to western civilization."

There are certain pre-requisites to having a rational discussion of issues with others: one would be that they are indeed rational - e.g. agree that the world is round. I suppose we could throw in “don’t see value of Wiccan contribution to western civ.” in there as well.

Ishii

 

[utah_rose]

I think he is basing his approach on the continuing trend toward forcing same sex marriage on the nation, and that will cause an inevitable conflict between marriage law and religious liberty. I will be surprised if the war on religion does not continue.

I agree. If gay marriage is forced upon the states, you can be sure that eventually the tax status of Catholic schools will be questioned if they choose not to teach this, and churches will be attacked if they refuse to marry same sex couples. This is only a small fragment but vocal group of the LGBT community, but they will not stop until everyone excepts same sex marriage. I believe The Huckabee is a sincere Christian man. The only way we can possibly defeat this is by speaking up and praying the Rosary. We need a Rosary Crusade now!

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

You are right - it did get side tracked. But going off on tangents can be useful, in that it shows where some people are coming from. I mean, how could we take someone seriously on Huckabee and the issue of the criminalization of Christianity, when they say such things as: "we need to recognize the value of the Wiccan contribution to western civilization."

Ishii

Good Evening Ishii: I have already called you on obfuscation on this thread, and yet you mischaracterize my words again to somehow support the idea that I am holding up Wicca as some special case. What I have said is that many beliefs systems, many races and cultural traditions have contributed to and continue to form western civilization. The statement is not about Wicca, nor do I have any special interest in Wicca. I mentioned Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and many other traditions alongside Wicca, and yet you have chosen to make this the cornerstone of your argument. But it really has nothing to do with the argument.

Now, it is clear to me that you have chosen to go off on this tangent and create a red herring because you simply don’t have a response to my point, and again I will ask you to offer any point you might have. Now would be a good time to stop with the character attacks and offer a response (if you have one) to what I had originally said about the many diverse cultural and religious contributions that have been made to the formation of western civilization. You may recall that this was in response to the idea that devout Catholics were somehow the sole architects and builders of western civilization. I am inviting you to respond to that. Do you have a response? If not, then please move on or find someone who can help you make your point. You have a lot of buddies on this thread - one of you should be able to come up with at least something, right? Something? Please?

All the best
Gary

 

[ishii]

Good Evening Ishii: I have already called you on obfuscation on this thread, and yet you mischaracterize my words again to somehow support the idea that I am holding up Wicca as some special case.

What I have said is that many beliefs systems, many races and cultural traditions have contributed to and continue to form western civilization. The statement is not about Wicca, nor do I have any special interest in Wicca. I mentioned Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and many other traditions alongside Wicca, and yet you have chosen to make this the cornerstone of your argument. But it really has nothing to do with the argument.

Now, it is clear to me that you have chosen to go off on this tangent and create a red herring because you simply don’t have a response to my point, and again I will ask you to offer any point you might have. Now would be a good time to stop with the character attacks and offer a response (if you have one) to what I had originally said about the many diverse cultural and religious contributions that have been made to the formation of western civilization.

You may recall that this was in response to the idea that devout Catholics were somehow the sole architects and builders of western civilization. I am inviting you to respond to that. Do you have a response? If not, then please move on or find someone who can help you make your point. You have a lot of buddies on this thread - one of you should be able to come up with at least something, right? Something? Please?

All the best
Gary

Gary - it is enough that you brought up Wicca as worthy of consideration for their supposed contribution to western civ. That says volumes about your world view and frankly for me, says it all. By the way, what is the Hindu contribution to western civ? Also, when did I ever make the point that Catholics were the sole architects and builders of western Civ? I would totally give a shout out to the Greeks and Romans. I don’t, however, believe that the Wiccans deserve to be mentioned out as having contributed anything of value to western civ. But - its a free country. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. No need to be snarky, btw.

Ishii

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Also, when did I ever make the point that Catholics were the sole architects and builders of western Civ? IIshii

It was zz in post 313. Then you jumped in.

 

[estesbob]

Good Evening Ishii: I have already called you on obfuscation on this thread, and yet you mischaracterize my words again to somehow support the idea that I am holding up Wicca as some special case. What I have said is that many beliefs systems, many races and cultural traditions have contributed to and continue to form western civilization. The statement is not about Wicca, nor do I have any special interest in Wicca. I mentioned Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and many other traditions alongside Wicca, and yet you have chosen to make this the cornerstone of your argument. But it really has nothing to do with the argument.

Now, it is clear to me that you have chosen to go off on this tangent and create a red herring because you simply don’t have a response to my point, and again I will ask you to offer any point you might have. Now would be a good time to stop with the character attacks and offer a response (if you have one) to what I had originally said about the many diverse cultural and religious contributions that have been made to the formation of western civilization. You may recall that this was in response to the idea that devout Catholics were somehow the sole architects and builders of western civilization. I am inviting you to respond to that. Do you have a response? If not, then please move on or find someone who can help you make your point. You have a lot of buddies on this thread - one of you should be able to come up with at least something, right? Something? Please?

All the best
Gary

Still wish I had the hammer.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Still wish I had the hammer.

If not a hammer,at least bring out the dead horse for a beating!

 

[ARSpade]

I agree. If gay marriage is forced upon the states, you can be sure that eventually the tax status of Catholic schools will be questioned if they choose not to teach this, and churches will be attacked if they refuse to marry same sex couples. !

I know an extremely liberal lawyer out on the left coast. Believes, no lie, that an abortion right up until birth is a woman’s right.

Anyway, she feels that government regulation of the beliefs and statements put out by churches is needed. She ain’t alone.

 

[ishii]

It was zz in post 313. Then you jumped in.

Great - so you admit that I never made the point that Catholics were sole architects of Western Civ.

 

[ishii]

I know an extremely liberal lawyer out on the left coast. Believes, no lie, that an abortion right up until birth is a woman’s right.

Anyway, she feels that government regulation of the beliefs and statements put out by churches is needed. She ain’t alone.

No she isn’t alone - note the words of Hillary recently:

"Far too many women are denied access to reproductive health care and safe childbirth. All the laws we’ve passed don’t count for much if they’re not enforced,” Hillary Clinton said at the Women in the World Summit on Thursday night. “Rights have to exist in practice, not just on paper. Laws have to be backed up with resources and political will. And deep-seated cultural codes, religious beliefs and structural biases have to be changed.”

Deep seated religious beliefs have to be changed.

I think there is good cause to be very, very concerned about the erosion of religious freedom in American should Hillary be elected. And if she is elected with the votes of certain Catholics (the types who value contributions of Wiccans to our culture), then they will have a great deal to answer for when the religious liberty is threatened.

Ishii

 

[Darryl1958]

I know an extremely liberal lawyer out on the left coast. Believes, no lie, that an abortion right up until birth is a woman’s right.

Anyway, she feels that government regulation of the beliefs and statements put out by churches is needed. She ain’t alone.

Recall that Obama was against a Born Alive act in Illinois, which would have extended protection to babies who were inadvertently born alive when the abortionist wanted them dead.

It is very odd that that is the kind of mindset could in any way be described as liberal. Liberals have become oxymorons.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary - By the way, what is the Hindu contribution to western civ?
Ishii

You’re kidding, right? Now, there is a lot of reading you can freely look up on the matter, however, most 2nd graders know that America was only discovered in a failed attempt to find a shortcut to India. The Renaissance courts of Europe didn’t normally spend a lot of time funding expeditions to places that didn’t matter. And every aspect of life in India is closely tied to Hindu thought.

All the best,
Gary

 

[zz912]

What exactly Is your question?

Are two identical sins worse than one sin? Are two murders worse than one murder?

I think we create our own caricatures.

Indeed, and there is a caricature that has been created that faithful Catholics have turned off their brains and let the Church think for them. You seemed to allude to this caricature earlier. Do you disavow this false caricature now?

As I said, I think I know the teachings as well as most people and am only allowing for the possibility that there are things I don’t know. Let me be clear. If you knew every word and verse of the Catechism, the Bible, The Koran, The Bhagavad Gita, The Mahabarata, and the Dhammapada, you still wouldn’t know anything. Because in truth, no one really knows anything about what all of this is. We have ideas, but these are largely shaped by cultural context wrapped in a syntax of tradition. But these are only frameworks that we apply to what we see in the world around us. We largely see what we’ve been taught and conditioned to see.

This is a hodge podge of nonsense. While we can’t FULLY understand Christ’s (Church’s) teachings, we can know them. While I can never comprehend the Trinity, I can know that the Church teaches that God is three persons in one Godhead.

Your paragraph above is just absolute relativism, and is rejected by the Church.

Yes they do. And there is a swath of destruction behind every institution that takes that position. Unfortunate.

Any objective view of the history of the Church will see a swath of love, goodness and charity behind it. Sure there are some dark periods and actions of those in the Church, but far and away the Church has been a force for good in this world. It’s sad when a Catholic believes their own religion is a force for evil.

That’s a rather interesting idea you have there. I would offer the idea that western civilization was built by Greeks, Romans, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Moors, Norsemen, Pagans, Jews, Protestants of all varieties and yes, Catholics. No one entity came along and stood up this civilization as some sort of static cultural edifice. It was a process, and is still a process, to which nowadays we can add Chinese, Indians, Africans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Wiccans, Atheists and so on.

Greeks and the Romans definitely created a foundation that Christian civilization was built upon, but it was Christianity that build western civilization. Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Moors, Norsemen, and Pagans did not build western civilization. And it’s laughable to claim that they had a significant (name removed by moderator)ut into it.

Jews contributed a good deal to western civilization, but the foundational skeleton for western civ was the Christian religion. And Protestantism is an offshoot of the Catholic faith, so I fail to see how that strengthens your argument.

 

[zz912]

They are contributing to cultural diversity as well as raising an awareness of and appreciation for nature. I do not share their beliefs, but like any other cult, they add to the collective imagination that is unique to our species.

How does cultural diversity erect western civilization? Is western civilization absent where Wiccans were not present?

 

[zz912]

-Good Evening Wonder and Awe: Would you care to enlighten us on the first religion to have a Trinity?

-How about the first religion to have a virgin birth of an incarnation of God in human form?

-Or perhaps you could tell us what was the first religion to have a resurrection story?

I’ll give you a clue - in none of the cases above was it ours. Careful who you call a knock off religion. This is one of many reasons why we need to be respectful of the beliefs of others, which goes back to the theme of this thread. We complain of being under attack as Christians when you and your cohorts clearly have no qualms about attacking other people’s beliefs. We believe what we do, and others believe what they do. And while all of us have good story lines, the hard cold truth of the matter is that none of us, not one, has any proof whatsoever of any of it. But we all have faith, and you and your friends should consider learning something about having some respect and consideration for that, because in truth, what we believe is just as vulnerable and shaky in the cold light of day as anything anyone else believes.** And if you think what we believe is novel in some way, do feel free to look up what religions we could be cited as having borrowed some of our traditions that I listed above from.** If we want people to respect us, perhaps we should show some respect as well. Otherwise, you have no cause to complain.

Could you clear up something for me? From your post here, it sounds as if you don’t believe some significant parts of the Christian faith actually happened. It sounds as if you believe they are just stories borrowed from other religions.

How much of the Christian faith do you believe actually happened? And how much do you believe is simply borrowed stories?

 

[zz912]

You’re kidding, right? Now, there is a lot of reading you can freely look up on the matter, however, most 2nd graders know that America was only discovered in a failed attempt to find a shortcut to India. The Renaissance courts of Europe didn’t normally spend a lot of time funding expeditions to places that didn’t matter. And every aspect of life in India is closely tied to Hindu thought.

All the best,
Gary

Finding a route to make trade easier doesn’t mean you are working to incorporate their beliefs and views into yours.

In fact, western civilization is what is causing India to rise up from third world status that is happening now. It is being hampered by Hindu culture and the caste system it created.

 

[Captain_America]

Finding a route to make trade easier doesn’t mean you are working to incorporate their beliefs and views into yours.

In fact, western civilization is what is causing India to rise up from third world status that is happening now. It is being hampered by Hindu culture and the caste system it created.

It’s a tenuous assertion he’s making. One could claim that India Indian’s contributions to math worked their way to the west via the muslims. That’s plausible.

But recall the progressive cast of Christian thinking: the whole of Hindu ideas would be regarded in a very negative light—“avoid these at all cost” would be the response, or, as was shown later, “help these people by teaching them about Jesus.”

 

[estesbob]

You’re kidding, right? Now, there is a lot of reading you can freely look up on the matter, however, most 2nd graders know that America was only discovered in a failed attempt to find a shortcut to India. The Renaissance courts of Europe didn’t normally spend a lot of time funding expeditions to places that didn’t matter. And every aspect of life in India is closely tied to Hindu thought.

All the best,
Gary

One need only watch the movie The Avengers tho see the contributions of Pagan Faiths to our culture.

 

[zz912]

It’s a tenuous assertion he’s making. One could claim that India Indian’s contributions to math worked their way to the west via the muslims. That’s plausible.

But recall the progressive cast of Christian thinking: the whole of Hindu ideas would be regarded in a very negative light—“avoid these at all cost” would be the response, or, as was shown later, “help these people by teaching them about Jesus.”

But then the counter argument is that those advances in math didn’t correspond to anything resembling western civilization rising in India or the Mideast.