Mildly Annoyed with RCIA

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Guys, I am glad I found this thread. To say that I am mildly annoyed with my RCIA program is an understatement.

I was a born and raised evangelical- so Bible was a huge emphasis in my spiritual formation. While my class does have organization to it, including a syllabus that covers all the important topics, the participants fall into several less than ideal categories. The first category has little to no knowledge of the Bible or Church teachings. They express their views (many I must say are blasphemy!) and our RCIA leaders often do not correct them or tell them what the church actually teaches! I feel like I’m at a Unitarian Church gathering, not Catholic.

The other category includes people who are way too overly-intellectual about theology. They are theology students at local universities and they want to debate the deep meanings of the Old Testament text and languages. Way over the heads of many of our class (some members of our class don’t even speak English as their first language), and while I don’t like jumping to conclusions, sometimes I doubt their sincerity in wanting to become Catholic. It’s more like they want to show off how much they know, it’s not about their heart or the salvation of their soul.

Others are there to join the Church b/c their partner is Catholic and they want to get married in the church. I think this is just a lousy reason to become Catholic and if you haven’t decided on that faith before your spouse (or his mom) “talked you into it” then you should think long and hard about your motivation for joining. (I’m also strongly against missionary dating, as you can probably tell!)

At the end of the night I leave frazzled and upset, too many talkers in my group and I never really get a chance to voice the fact that I disagree with probably 90% of what is said. The priest leading our group is cool and I’m assuming orthodox but he isn’t always there. The other leaders have about 5 years between the 3 of them of being Catholic, and they seem to only want to emphasize how radically Vatican II impacted the Church. They rarely confront the views presented by class members which are contrary to the Bible and Church teaching.

I’m sorry, but I don’t want to join a church that “radically” changes its views every couple centuries or so. My understanding is that Vatican II developed theology and practices that were already in place, but I didn’t think it changed “everything” (as my leaders seem to imply). Are they right? Have I been greatly deceived that the Church is the same church it has been all through the ages, blossoming its theology like a flower? Or is it something totally different than I thought?

I am pulling my hair out! I’m not learning a thing! And for the first time since I started exploring Catholicism over 2.5 years ago, I’m starting to have doubts about joining the church. I mean my gosh, why can’t they pull it together?

This is a rant, I hope no one out there takes offense, but I am just so frustrated. I joined RCIA to learn about the church, all I’m learning now is how little some people know about the Bible and the church and how much some people know to the point it makes them overly- intellectual!! Any ideas or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
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mercygate:
It seems to be the Gospel of RCIA that doctrine is to be avoided like the plague in favor of relating to the lectionary. In my experience, by the time a convert drags himself into the process, he’s doctrine-starved and wants all he can get. But the lectionary approach is probably better to reache those who have little formation in any faith.
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Many of the perceived problems with RCIA are embedded in the very process itself, which is, or should be, pretty much the same throughout the country. It is not designed as an “academic” process, but rather as a liturgical process based on the Lectionary, as mercygate points out.

Now, in a liturgical process, catechetics are, if not secondary, at least not given the same prominence as liturgy and readings. So the quality of the catechetics–i.e., the ‘academic’ part of the program–is almost entirely dependent on the ability of the individual parish to structure that part of the program and find good catechists to teach it.

It’s just the way the RCIA was designed.
 
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Steph700:
Guys, I am glad I found this thread. To say that I am mildly annoyed with my RCIA program is an understatement.

I was a born and raised evangelical- so Bible was a huge emphasis in my spiritual formation. While my class does have organization to it, including a syllabus that covers all the important topics, the participants fall into several less than ideal categories. The first category has little to no knowledge of the Bible or Church teachings. They express their views (many I must say are blasphemy!) and our RCIA leaders often do not correct them or tell them what the church actually teaches! I feel like I’m at a Unitarian Church gathering, not Catholic.

The other category includes people who are way too overly-intellectual about theology. They are theology students at local universities and they want to debate the deep meanings of the Old Testament text and languages. Way over the heads of many of our class (some members of our class don’t even speak English as their first language), and while I don’t like jumping to conclusions, sometimes I doubt their sincerity in wanting to become Catholic. It’s more like they want to show off how much they know, it’s not about their heart or the salvation of their soul.

Others are there to join the Church b/c their partner is Catholic and they want to get married in the church. I think this is just a lousy reason to become Catholic and if you haven’t decided on that faith before your spouse (or his mom) “talked you into it” then you should think long and hard about your motivation for joining. (I’m also strongly against missionary dating, as you can probably tell!)

At the end of the night I leave frazzled and upset, too many talkers in my group and I never really get a chance to voice the fact that I disagree with probably 90% of what is said. The priest leading our group is cool and I’m assuming orthodox but he isn’t always there. The other leaders have about 5 years between the 3 of them of being Catholic, and they seem to only want to emphasize how radically Vatican II impacted the Church. They rarely confront the views presented by class members which are contrary to the Bible and Church teaching.

I’m sorry, but I don’t want to join a church that “radically” changes its views every couple centuries or so. My understanding is that Vatican II developed theology and practices that were already in place, but I didn’t think it changed “everything” (as my leaders seem to imply). Are they right? Have I been greatly deceived that the Church is the same church it has been all through the ages, blossoming its theology like a flower? Or is it something totally different than I thought?

I am pulling my hair out! I’m not learning a thing! And for the first time since I started exploring Catholicism over 2.5 years ago, I’m starting to have doubts about joining the church. I mean my gosh, why can’t they pull it together?

This is a rant, I hope no one out there takes offense, but I am just so frustrated. I joined RCIA to learn about the church, all I’m learning now is how little some people know about the Bible and the church and how much some people know to the point it makes them overly- intellectual!! Any ideas or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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I grew up Methodist and the Bible was key to us as well so I can relate. Anywho, This is the Church that Christ intended, maybe not with some of the corrupt members, but the Church is protected by God and will never teach wrong regarding Faith and Morals.

Here is the thing about Vatican II. It took place during the 60s, a time notorius for equal rights, tolerance, if-it-feels-good-do-it type stuff. SO it is needless to say that some people at the time that were involved with the Church, layity and clergy, were influenced by the hippie movement, and total equal rights. So they thought V2 meant it was time to allow women to be ordained, homosexuals to be recognized as good, Eucharist for everyone, etc. And since this “rights” movement started in the 50’s and went through to now, people have a misunderstanding of what V2 really was. I am not expert in what it was, but I know what it wasn’t. It was not a movement towards sin. V2 changed nothing that could not be changed. Nothing regarding Faith or morals (meat and potatoes of Catholicism). Hope this helped.

DXU
 
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snowman10:
I grew up Methodist and the Bible was key to us as well so I can relate. Anywho, This is the Church that Christ intended, maybe not with some of the corrupt members, but the Church is protected by God and will never teach wrong regarding Faith and Morals.

Here is the thing about Vatican II. It took place during the 60s, a time notorius for equal rights, tolerance, if-it-feels-good-do-it type stuff. SO it is needless to say that some people at the time that were involved with the Church, layity and clergy, were influenced by the hippie movement, and total equal rights. So they thought V2 meant it was time to allow women to be ordained, homosexuals to be recognized as good, Eucharist for everyone, etc. And since this “rights” movement started in the 50’s and went through to now, people have a misunderstanding of what V2 really was. I am not expert in what it was, but I know what it wasn’t. It was not a movement towards sin. V2 changed nothing that could not be changed. Nothing regarding Faith or morals (meat and potatoes of Catholicism). Hope this helped.

DXU
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Thanks, that does help. I have just been so discouraged about the whole process.

Maybe down the road God will use those of us who are disgruntled now to lay some kind of foundation/framework for future standard curriculum of some sort.
 
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JimG:
Many of the perceived problems with RCIA are embedded in the very process itself, which is, or should be, pretty much the same throughout the country. It is not designed as an “academic” process, but rather as a liturgical process based on the Lectionary, as mercygate points out.

Now, in a liturgical process, catechetics are, if not secondary, at least not given the same prominence as liturgy and readings. So the quality of the catechetics–i.e., the ‘academic’ part of the program–is almost entirely dependent on the ability of the individual parish to structure that part of the program and find good catechists to teach it.

It’s just the way the RCIA was designed.
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I’m not quite sure I understand what Jim is saying about liturgical, lectionary, or academic based. Our RCIA program centers on Catechesis using the Catechism and Scripture to explain basic Catholic concepts. However, most of the “sourcing” is the Bible. Additionally, we have three Masses with an hour long “homily” explaining the Mass and all its parts.

Anyway, in an effort to be helpful as this is a curriculum used by my Parish developed over that last 5 years and has been well-recieved by unchurched converts, well-developed Protestant converts, and cradle Catholics attending who want to learn more about the Church.

Class #'s below
1- A social picnic gathering to allow people to get to know each other. We found that Protestants have a culture of meeting and greetign that we need to be sensitive too. They like getting to know people before classes begin.

2- Candidate Questions and general Info on RCIA. The purpose of this meeting is for the candidates/catechumens to list every question or barrier/struggle they personally have against joining the Church. We then either make sure that every question will be answered during the year or we answer it in a “Casserole meeting” where Father just runs down all the questions that haven’t and won’t be addressed in teh curriculum.

3-7- We discuss Salvation History where we all share our own religious journey (Protestants love this), Scripture summarized around Creation, Sin & Promise, Redemption, and Salvation. We basically show how God involved Himself in history to save people and how He is involved in our own individual story.

8- Image of God. FAther talks about how important it is that we think rightly about God so we can be sure to be worshipping God and not our own concept of God which can be very inaccurate. We go thru the God is all-powerful, eternal, all-knowing, and all the other “All-Everything.”

9- Divine Revelation- How God chose to reveal Himself to humanity. Sponsors are assigned

Rite of Welcome is after #9

10- Mystery of the Trinity, Mystery of Creation plus a short explanation of Advent and the Liturgical Year

11- Mystery of Sin and Mystery of the Incarnation

12- Jesus’ Ministry: Teaching, Healing, Reconciling & the Mystery of Redemption

13: Mystery of the Resurrection, Ascension, Lordship of Christ

14: Holy Spirit

15: Mystery of the Church: One, Holy, Catholic (Universal), Apostolic

16: Mary: Virgin Mother of God, Queen of Heaven (Depending on when Easter falls, this sometimes gets pushed back to after the Vigil)

17: The four last things and Communion of Saints

18: Sacraments and Sacraementals

19: Baptism and Confirmation

20: Eucharist

21: Sacraments of Healing: Penance and Annointing of Sick and also do Stations of the Cross as we just entered Lent

22: Sacraments of Service: Marriage plus a little bit on Holy Orders.

23: Catholic Morality and the dignity of the Human Person/Living a Catholic Moral Life

24: Casserole Sunday where the remaining questions are answered by Father and a q&a session.

25: 10 Commandments and Precepts of the Church (this calso can get pushed back after the Vigil depending on how Easter fell on the calendar)

Easter Vigil and Confirmation

26: Stewardship: Time, Talent and Treasure

27: Catholic Charities and Church Committee Discussion

28: Catholic Devotions and ways to express your new Catholic identity

29: Final clean-up and social gathering. Sending them forth.
 
Orionthehunter, your outline looks pretty good to me. Apparently it was developed at the parish level by your own parish. My point was that the catechetical / doctrinal part of RCIA is often left to the individual parish to develop, whereas the broad liturgical outlines of RCIA seem to be established nationally. But I’m far from an expert on RCIA.

By a liturgical and Lectionary based RCIA, I mean that the overall system of the Rites (of welcoming, of election, etc.), the use of the Lectionary readings, personal reflection on the readings in the Breaking Open of the Word, and the catechesis, which I thought was supposed to flow from the readings.

And since the Lectionary readings are on a three-year cycle, if the catechesis flows from the readings, the catechical portion could vary somewhat each year. But hey, I like your method just fine! I especially like the part about having the people list every question or objection or barrier to Catholicism that they can think of right upfront, and then aswering the questions as you go along. Sometimes people don’t ask those questions, and so never get them answered.
 
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Orionthehunter:
I’m not quite sure I understand what Jim is saying about liturgical, lectionary, or academic based. Our RCIA program centers on Catechesis using the Catechism and Scripture to explain basic Catholic concepts. However, most of the “sourcing” is the Bible. Additionally, we have three Masses with an hour long “homily” explaining the Mass and all its parts.

Anyway, in an effort to be helpful as this is a curriculum used by my Parish developed over that last 5 years and has been well-recieved by unchurched converts, well-developed Protestant converts, and cradle Catholics attending who want to learn more about the Church.

Class #'s below
1- A social picnic gathering to allow people to get to know each other. We found that Protestants have a culture of meeting and greetign that we need to be sensitive too. They like getting to know people before classes begin.

2- Candidate Questions and general Info on RCIA. The purpose of this meeting is for the candidates/catechumens to list every question or barrier/struggle they personally have against joining the Church. We then either make sure that every question will be answered during the year or we answer it in a “Casserole meeting” where Father just runs down all the questions that haven’t and won’t be addressed in teh curriculum.

3-7- We discuss Salvation History where we all share our own religious journey (Protestants love this), Scripture summarized around Creation, Sin & Promise, Redemption, and Salvation. We basically show how God involved Himself in history to save people and how He is involved in our own individual story.

8- Image of God. FAther talks about how important it is that we think rightly about God so we can be sure to be worshipping God and not our own concept of God which can be very inaccurate. We go thru the God is all-powerful, eternal, all-knowing, and all the other “All-Everything.”

9- Divine Revelation- How God chose to reveal Himself to humanity. Sponsors are assigned

Rite of Welcome is after #9

10- Mystery of the Trinity, Mystery of Creation plus a short explanation of Advent and the Liturgical Year

11- Mystery of Sin and Mystery of the Incarnation

12- Jesus’ Ministry: Teaching, Healing, Reconciling & the Mystery of Redemption

13: Mystery of the Resurrection, Ascension, Lordship of Christ

14: Holy Spirit

15: Mystery of the Church: One, Holy, Catholic (Universal), Apostolic

16: Mary: Virgin Mother of God, Queen of Heaven (Depending on when Easter falls, this sometimes gets pushed back to after the Vigil)

17: The four last things and Communion of Saints

18: Sacraments and Sacraementals

19: Baptism and Confirmation

20: Eucharist

21: Sacraments of Healing: Penance and Annointing of Sick and also do Stations of the Cross as we just entered Lent

22: Sacraments of Service: Marriage plus a little bit on Holy Orders.

23: Catholic Morality and the dignity of the Human Person/Living a Catholic Moral Life

24: Casserole Sunday where the remaining questions are answered by Father and a q&a session.

25: 10 Commandments and Precepts of the Church (this calso can get pushed back after the Vigil depending on how Easter fell on the calendar)

Easter Vigil and Confirmation

26: Stewardship: Time, Talent and Treasure

27: Catholic Charities and Church Committee Discussion

28: Catholic Devotions and ways to express your new Catholic identity

29: Final clean-up and social gathering. Sending them forth.
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Wow!! Can I join your parish?? 😃

Actual topics for discussion, about the Catholic church…looks awesome. 👍
 
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Steph700:
Guys, I am glad I found this thread. To say that I am mildly annoyed with my RCIA program is an understatement.

I was a born and raised evangelical- so Bible was a huge emphasis in my spiritual formation. While my class does have organization to it, including a syllabus that covers all the important topics, the participants fall into several less than ideal categories. The first category has little to no knowledge of the Bible or Church teachings. They express their views (many I must say are blasphemy!) and our RCIA leaders often do not correct them or tell them what the church actually teaches! I feel like I’m at a Unitarian Church gathering, not Catholic.

The other category includes people who are way too overly-intellectual about theology. They are theology students at local universities and they want to debate the deep meanings of the Old Testament text and languages. Way over the heads of many of our class (some members of our class don’t even speak English as their first language), and while I don’t like jumping to conclusions, sometimes I doubt their sincerity in wanting to become Catholic. It’s more like they want to show off how much they know, it’s not about their heart or the salvation of their soul.

Others are there to join the Church b/c their partner is Catholic and they want to get married in the church. I think this is just a lousy reason to become Catholic and if you haven’t decided on that faith before your spouse (or his mom) “talked you into it” then you should think long and hard about your motivation for joining. (I’m also strongly against missionary dating, as you can probably tell!)

At the end of the night I leave frazzled and upset, too many talkers in my group and I never really get a chance to voice the fact that I disagree with probably 90% of what is said. The priest leading our group is cool and I’m assuming orthodox but he isn’t always there. The other leaders have about 5 years between the 3 of them of being Catholic, and they seem to only want to emphasize how radically Vatican II impacted the Church. They rarely confront the views presented by class members which are contrary to the Bible and Church teaching.

I’m sorry, but I don’t want to join a church that “radically” changes its views every couple centuries or so. My understanding is that Vatican II developed theology and practices that were already in place, but I didn’t think it changed “everything” (as my leaders seem to imply). Are they right? Have I been greatly deceived that the Church is the same church it has been all through the ages, blossoming its theology like a flower? Or is it something totally different than I thought?

I am pulling my hair out! I’m not learning a thing! And for the first time since I started exploring Catholicism over 2.5 years ago, I’m starting to have doubts about joining the church. I mean my gosh, why can’t they pull it together?

This is a rant, I hope no one out there takes offense, but I am just so frustrated. I joined RCIA to learn about the church, all I’m learning now is how little some people know about the Bible and the church and how much some people know to the point it makes them overly- intellectual!! Any ideas or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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I wouldn’t worry too much about vatican 2. It changed around some traditions, but not in a way that would harm or change the basic teachings of the church. They’re still there. 🙂 We’re here for you too if you have more questions that you can’t get answered at RCIA. I’ve been helping out my husband with some stuff that I’ve looked up online…don’t let this experience cause you to leave. Christ led you home to the church for a reason.
And if you hear any blasphemous views, call them on it. Maybe *you *can teach *them *something! 😉
 
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Celia:
Wow!! Can I join your parish?? 😃

Actual topics for discussion, about the Catholic church…looks awesome. 👍
Click to expand...
Contrary to the perception we sometimes give, the Church is a free gift from God. We just need to accept it. I’m confident that we are getting so many things right. Our new Pope will be a great impetus in this regard.
 
For anyone studying the Catholic Faith, I highly recommend getting the Catechism series on tape of Father Corapi, who is exciting, 100% correct, enjoyable, a real Apostle among us! Maybe the group could share the cost - its not that expensive and then your group could donate the set to the parish for the next RCIA class. I am pretty sure you can order these through EWTN’s catalog.
 
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snowman10:
Maybe it is just me, but my RCIA group is not very good. The Priest is nice, but sortof dry. His idea of teaching us was popping in a video of Bishop Donald Wuerl, who is very good and orthodox. However, that is all Father really does. Then tonite, we had a woman come in who sat down and read from about a thousand papers about salvation history, and not even in the correct sequence. So far in RCIA, we have not really even had a question and answer day. In their defense however, RCIA runs on the college schedule, so we take a break over Christmas. But I am just annoyed with the way RCIA is run.

Then I remember though, I learned more about the Faith from books and the wonderful people here on CAF…😃

Love you all,
dxu…:blessyou:
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I have a hunch God is drawing you to become a RCIA instructor / leader, so pay close attention to what you are going through.

Get to know other Catholics, especially those you admire and respect their “Fruits of the Holy Spirit”.
Ask them questions you are genuinely curious about.

God knows we need RCIA people who are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes we get people trying to “evangelize” while they themselves have not been evangelized.

When I say “evangeloze” I refer to John Paul II and what He says about “The New Evangelism”.
or
What Jesus says about **"I have come to cast fire upon the earth and how I wish it were already ablaze ! ** (Luke 12: 49)

You already have the most important ingredient in RCIA…
you have Love !

God Bless,

gusano
 
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Orionthehunter:
I

Anyway, in an effort to be helpful as this is a curriculum used by my Parish
Class #'s below
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OK, since we’re sharing, here’s how my parish does it:

Phase I: Pre-Catechumenate

9/6 The Journey of Faith
9/13 What do Catholics Believe?
9/20 What is the Meaning of Mass?
9/27 The Bible & How Catholics Interpret the Bible
10/4 Mary and the Saints
10/11 Catholics and Prayer
10/18 Catholic Practices & Catholics and Church
10/23 Rite of Acceptance

Phase II: The Cathechumenate

10/25 The Sacraments
11/1 Baptism
11/8 Confirmation
11/15 The Eucharist
11/22 Penance
11/24 Anointing of the Sick
12/6 Marriage
12/13 Holy Orders
12/20 The People of God
1/3 Who is Jesus Christ?
1/10 The Early Church
1/17 History of the Church
1/24 Christian Moral Living
1/31 Social Justice
2/7 The Consistant Life Ethic
2/14 The Dignity of Life

Phase III: Enlightenment

2/21 1st Sunday of Lent (Instuction)
What is Lent?
2/26 Retreat–Rite of Sending
2/28 2nd Sunday of Lent (Readings)
Saying Yes to Jesus
3/1 Ash Wednesday
3/5 Rite of Election–St John Cathedral
3pm Bishop Pill
3/7 3rd Sunday of Lent (Readings)
Take a Look
(Sun) Scrutinies
3/14 4th Sunday of Lent (Readings)
Nicene Creed
(Sun) Scrutinies
3/21 5th Sunday of Lent (Readings)
The Way of the Ctoss
(Sun) Scrutinies
3/28 Passion Sunday (Readings)
The Lord’s Prayer
4/2 Retreat
4/4 The Meaning of Holy Week
4/15 Rite of Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist
The Easter Vigil

Phase IV: Mystagogy

4/25 Conversion: A Lifelong Process
5/2 The Laity: Called to Build God’s Kingdom & Your Special Gifts
5/9 Family Life
5/16 Your Prayer Life
5/23 Discernment & Holiness
5/30 Evangelization & Evaluation
6/4 Pentecost
 
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axolotl:
OK, since we’re sharing, here’s how my parish does it:
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I’ve printed this out and will discuss how we can get soem of your ideas worked in. We only meet 3 of 4 weekends a month while you go all four. None of us have all the best answers and as we exchange our curriculums like this, we’ll all get better. Be patient w/ us! 😉 We are trying.

BTW, our parish is lucky as this is one of my Pastor’s charisms. Not every Parish has a Pastor with the ability to be a good teacher but he will have a different charism like ministering to the sick and dying or some other strength. We have to accept what we have and as laity try to mitigate his weaknesses and enhance his strenghts.
 
So you guys don’t meet every week? We meet once a week. Class can go from 1-2 hours, depending on when the teacher finally gets everything started. This goes till Easter and then there’s a couple sessions afterwards that you can go to to talk about, I’m not sure, how you feel now that you have the sacrament(s). We don’t know if we’ll go to that. I doubt it will be beneficial, but we’ll see. So yes…8 months of this…I try not to think about it. :eek: 🙂
 
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gusano:
I have a hunch God is drawing you to become a RCIA instructor / leader, so pay close attention to what you are going through.

Get to know other Catholics, especially those you admire and respect their “Fruits of the Holy Spirit”.
Ask them questions you are genuinely curious about.

God knows we need RCIA people who are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes we get people trying to “evangelize” while they themselves have not been evangelized.

When I say “evangeloze” I refer to John Paul II and what He says about “The New Evangelism”.
or
What Jesus says about **"I have come to cast fire upon the earth and how I wish it were already ablaze ! **(Luke 12: 49)

You already have the most important ingredient in RCIA…
you have Love !

God Bless,

gusano
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Thank you so much!

Dxu
 
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Celia:
So you guys don’t meet every week? We meet once a week. Class can go from 1-2 hours, depending on when the teacher finally gets everything started. This goes till Easter and then there’s a couple sessions afterwards that you can go to to talk about, I’m not sure, how you feel now that you have the sacrament(s). We don’t know if we’ll go to that. I doubt it will be beneficial, but we’ll see. So yes…8 months of this…I try not to think about it. :eek: 🙂
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No but our classes are 2.5 hours of instruction plus usually 15-30 minutes of social afterwards. So I guess we get in as many “hours” as you but don’t cover as much ground. Seems to work for us.
 
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Orionthehunter:
No but our classes are 2.5 hours of instruction plus usually 15-30 minutes of social afterwards. So I guess we get in as many “hours” as you but don’t cover as much ground. Seems to work for us.
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That’s a good system, I think I would prefer that. Sometimes people can’t make all of our classes.

👍
 
The RCIA I went through left me believing in just about nothing! The way they did the sacraments for protestants coming into the Church was so screwed up that there are still repercusions from this in my family and this was 20 years ago. I am more than mildly annoyed!:mad:
 
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