Military's gay ban is unconstitutional

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But judging by the above post, you have never understood what I was saying. .
Yes Bro, I understand exactly what you’re saying it’s just I don’t understand the double standards?

The military can truck in prostitutes into Camps have massage parlors connected to gyms and you can pay extra for that special massage put have homosexuals in the military find out about them then kicked them out!

If you’re heterosexual it’s ok to be with prostitutes? Just call me a dumb Polock I don’t get it?

Why is no one upset about the law enforcement departments all over this country they hire homosexual men and women who everyday put their lives on the line to enforce the law and protect us?

Homosexuals in our armed forces putting their lives on the line to protect our freedom? No, no, no, kick them out; they’re not good enough.

As for the Australia, Canada, and United Kingdom, I really don’t care about their cultures I care about their armed forces, they’re are professional and equal to ours that’s what counts on the battlefield.
 
Stan, I agree with your overall point, but I have to ask you, When, did they ever truck in prostitutes or have a message parlor in the gyms? It sure wasnt when I was in the army, and if you came back to camp having to go on sick call because of a little indiscretion, well, you were soon paying the “old man” a visit… lol…On a serious note, I think DADT is a good compromise, as when I was in, I didnt care who was gay or not as long as they did their jobs. But it is different now, with everything being " in your face" so to speak, I believe the gays making the most noise about serving in the military openly, really have no intention of doing so, except to make a statement and hopefully audition for a spot on the “Village People”
 
Stan, I agree with your overall point, but I have to ask you, When, did they ever truck in prostitutes or have a message parlor in the gyms? It sure wasnt when I was in the army, and if you came back to camp having to go on sick call because of a little indiscretion, well, you were soon paying the “old man” a visit… lol…On a serious note, I think DADT is a good compromise, as when I was in, I didnt care who was gay or not as long as they did their jobs. But it is different now, with everything being " in your face" so to speak, I believe the gays making the most noise about serving in the military openly, really have no intention of doing so, except to make a statement and hopefully audition for a spot on the “Village People”
All I’ll say is the Far East; I believe they stopped the massage stuff in the Camps in the eighties when more women came into the service.

I remember in the nineties some Admiral in the Far East got fired, three Marines were arrested for raping a school girl, and he commented, “I don’t understand they had money why didn’t they just get a prostitute.”

All I’m saying is the United States military has supported this stuff for years as all militaries have done throughout history—command will look the other way except when VD puts soldiers out of action—then command will get involved.

I’m not even going to get into Central America and Europe!
 
I support gay people serving openly in the military. I also think that the sergeant should have the right to display her marriage certificate. Both those things said, it seems ill-advised to do so, unless the goal is to initiate a conflict. If that was her goal, she succeeded. If it wasn’t her goal, she still shouldn’t be surprised.

On balance, I would rather that the advocacy groups slowed down on suits like this and let the legislature finishing repealing DADT. It looks like that will happen early next year, and it would be a better and less controversial way to address the issue. But I can understand that those directly affected are probably tired of waiting.
I like your points.
 
I guess what I’m trying to say is:

My problem is if it’s a professional soldier or a young kid; that may have made a bad decision just kick them out; these are people’s lives we’re talking about here.

I mean where is the compassion that the Church teaches us? We are just going to throw these people to the curb?

I mean I know people that being in the Army is their life it is their being, they don’t want to do anything but be a Professional Soldier. So if they have same sex attraction? Even though they have never broken a military regulation—but find out about it; kick them out!!!

No man, as a Catholic American; Professional Non Commissioned Officer I would never do that to one of my troopers. Well; God will judge me on that?
 
This really doesn’t work.

The military presently does not purport to regulate the private lives of homosexuals in the service. It merely requires that they keep them private.

I’m not sure 90% of heterosexuals engage in perverted sex. Possibly you might be running with the wrong crowd, and have gotten that impression from so doing. But let’s assume it’s so. The military (as one of the other posters who promote repeal of DADT pointed out) does not allow overt advertisement of one’s perverted sexual practices with members of the opposite sex either. But the homosexual lobby demands, it appears, that it be excepted from that. To advertise that one is an active homosexual at all is to advertise that one engages in sexual perversion. Of course, it is precisely the objective of the homosexual activists to oblige society to formally decree that homosexuality is not perverted, but is equivalent to heterosexuality, (“just a variant of normal”) and that’s what the homosexual lobby wishes to accomplish with the repeal of DADT.

And you’re entirely correct in saying the government now simply expects those in service to carry out their jobs professionally. The homsexual advocates wish to add to it that one may also (if one is a homosexual) announce that one is a sexual pervert and, by action, demonstrate it.
You don’t ever have to “advertise” yourself as gay to be thrown out under DADT. All somebody has to do is report that they heard you say something that made them think you might be gay. That’s enough to launch an investigation. As a gay service member you can go to great lengths to keep your orientation out of the workplace and not push a “gay agenda” and it doesn’t matter a damn bit. More have been discharged und DADT than under the outright bans that came before. Yet, if you’re a hetero pervert, you can advertise that all day long. You can still get busted for outright harassment, but short of that you can talk with your buddies about whatever you did last weekend about any kink you can think of and some you can’t, and you’ll never be at risk of discharge for it…
 
You don’t ever have to “advertise” yourself as gay to be thrown out under DADT. All somebody has to do is report that they heard you say something that made them think you might be gay. That’s enough to launch an investigation. As a gay service member you can go to great lengths to keep your orientation out of the workplace and not push a “gay agenda” and it doesn’t matter a damn bit. More have been discharged und DADT than under the outright bans that came before. Yet, if you’re a hetero pervert, you can advertise that all day long. You can still get busted for outright harassment, but short of that you can talk with your buddies about whatever you did last weekend about any kink you can think of and some you can’t, and you’ll never be at risk of discharge for it…
The double standard is clear. Talk of heterosexual fornication and immorality is openly tolerated.
 
The double standard is clear. Talk of heterosexual fornication and immorality is openly tolerated.
Which means that the solution is not to turn the military into an omni sex phone line, but to “shut the H up,” excuse my French. Everybody.

If a person hasn’t learned good taste before he or she joined the military, there’s no time like the service to learn it for the first time.
 
You don’t ever have to “advertise” yourself as gay to be thrown out under DADT. All somebody has to do is report that they heard you say something that made them think you might be gay. That’s enough to launch an investigation. As a gay service member you can go to great lengths to keep your orientation out of the workplace and not push a “gay agenda” and it doesn’t matter a damn bit. More have been discharged und DADT than under the outright bans that came before. Yet, if you’re a hetero pervert, you can advertise that all day long. You can still get busted for outright harassment, but short of that you can talk with your buddies about whatever you did last weekend about any kink you can think of and some you can’t, and you’ll never be at risk of discharge for it…
I’ve seen a homosexual Sergeant flat out tell a subordinate that he was in love with another man, and nothing came of it except a counseling statement and a few harsh words. In order to be kicked out over DADT you really need to push the envelope.
 
Which means that the solution is not to turn the military into an omni sex phone line, but to “shut the H up,” excuse my French. Everybody.

If a person hasn’t learned good taste before he or she joined the military, there’s no time like the service to learn it for the first time.
If you have a high security clearance and you’re a homosexual that is a security risk under DADT.

BTW I had some kids that couldn’t wipe their noses because at home mommy did everything for them. I had a DI friend and ask why we are getting sub-standard soldiers? He told me, “Stan if I kick too many kids out in BCT I’ll get a bad evaluation report so there goes my career, so we let you guys weed them out.”
 
You don’t ever have to “advertise” yourself as gay to be thrown out under DADT. All somebody has to do is report that they heard you say something that made them think you might be gay. That’s enough to launch an investigation. As a gay service member you can go to great lengths to keep your orientation out of the workplace and not push a “gay agenda” and it doesn’t matter a damn bit. More have been discharged und DADT than under the outright bans that came before. Yet, if you’re a hetero pervert, you can advertise that all day long. You can still get busted for outright harassment, but short of that you can talk with your buddies about whatever you did last weekend about any kink you can think of and some you can’t, and you’ll never be at risk of discharge for it…
And the reliable sources for these conclusions are??? I count five.
 
The double standard is clear. Talk of heterosexual fornication and immorality is openly tolerated.
Then perhaps that, and not DADT is the greater problem to be solved. If the services are as “professional” as some on here seem to think, I would think a solution could be found without undue difficulty.
 
I mean where is the compassion that the Church teaches us? We are just going to throw these people to the curb?
The Church does not teach us that governments should endorse homosexuality.

Nobody is throwing anybody to the curb. A homosexual serviceman or woman has a choice: Keep your private life to yourself, or don’t pursue a military career. That’s not “throwing anybody to the curb”.

Besides, many people are rejected from the military for reasons that have nothing to do with their ability to be good soldiers. Many are also forced out of the military for reasons that have nothing to do with their ability to be good soldiers. Your medical record can doom you, even if you presently have the ability to perform. So can your criminal record. Your career can be cut short by arbirary things as well. Your commanding officer decides to put a black mark, or even a “gray mark” in your efficiency report so you don’t make the cut in the “up or out” system, and you’re finished.

There are lots of things in the military, and in civilian life as well, that can adversely affect a person and which one could consider arbitrary, depending on one’s point of view. Try getting a job with a Wall Street law firm with a law degree from the University of Southern Mississippi and no “book of business” to bring with you. You won’t, no matter how good you might be. Try buying malpractice insurance as an OBGYN if your previous carrier “chickened out” and paid a big settlement in a bogus malpractice claim. Try competing successfully in the “Miss Texas” contest if you stand 4’8". Try working for MSN, even if you’re a brilliant reporter, but are overtly traditional and prolife. Yet, we are not obliged in conscience to have “compassion” to change society in order to accommodate all potential disadvantages, particularly when, as in doing away with DADT, the change involves officially affirming immorality and giving scandal to the young.
 
The Church does not teach us that governments should endorse homosexuality.

Nobody is throwing anybody to the curb. A homosexual serviceman or woman has a choice: Keep your private life to yourself, or don’t pursue a military career. That’s not “throwing anybody to the curb”.

Besides, many people are rejected from the military for reasons that have nothing to do with their ability to be good soldiers. Many are also forced out of the military for reasons that have nothing to do with their ability to be good soldiers. Your medical record can doom you, even if you presently have the ability to perform. So can your criminal record. Your career can be cut short by arbirary things as well. Your commanding officer decides to put a black mark, or even a “gray mark” in your efficiency report so you don’t make the cut in the “up or out” system, and you’re finished.

There are lots of things in the military, and in civilian life as well, that can adversely affect a person and which one could consider arbitrary, depending on one’s point of view. Try getting a job with a Wall Street law firm with a law degree from the University of Southern Mississippi and no “book of business” to bring with you. You won’t, no matter how good you might be. Try buying malpractice insurance as an OBGYN if your previous carrier “chickened out” and paid a big settlement in a bogus malpractice claim. Try competing successfully in the “Miss Texas” contest if you stand 4’8". Try working for MSN, even if you’re a brilliant reporter, but are overtly traditional and prolife. Yet, we are not obliged in conscience to have “compassion” to change society in order to accommodate all potential disadvantages, particularly when, as in doing away with DADT, the change involves officially affirming immorality and giving scandal to the young.
Golly gee, oh boy, thanks for letting me know; I never this. :rolleyes:
 
And the reliable sources for these conclusions are??? I count five.
According to the GAO, 14,000 have been discharged under the policy since it went into effect in 1993. The cost to find and train replacements has run $364 million. 80 of them were linguists whose skills were desperately needed at a tme when foreign terrorists were running circles around us and killing our people at will. Some few of those discharged did in fact announce themselves to try to protest the policy, but most are just the victims of a snitch that didn’t like them. The standards to launch an investigation are, per manuals on the subject, very minimal. If someone heard or saw something, anything at all, that lead them to believe you might be homosexual, your whole life is under the microscope. I think recent changes limit the rank of officer who can initiate an investigation, but we still have a policy which actively undercuts our national defense and which is an insult to the traditions of our nation.
 
According to the GAO, 14,000 have been discharged under the policy since it went into effect in 1993. The cost to find and train replacements has run $364 million. 80 of them were linguists whose skills were desperately needed at a tme when foreign terrorists were running circles around us and killing our people at will. Some few of those discharged did in fact announce themselves to try to protest the policy, but most are just the victims of a snitch that didn’t like them. The standards to launch an investigation are, per manuals on the subject, very minimal. If someone heard or saw something, anything at all, that lead them to believe you might be homosexual, your whole life is under the microscope. I think recent changes limit the rank of officer who can initiate an investigation, but we still have a policy which actively undercuts our national defense and which is an insult to the traditions of our nation.
Well, your source (which you do not link) says 14,000 have been discharged for violating DADT in the last 15 years, ( .0004%/year) and that their doing so cost $364 million in wasted training costs. The rest of your post is just your supposition, unsupported by anything. If we assume the percentage of homosexuals in the military is about the same as in the population at large, about .008% of the homosexuals in the military have been adversely affected by DADT for ALL the reasons they were affected. Some number, you say, “came out” in order to protest, so the maximum percentage of homosexuals you think (but did not prove) were “railroaded” would be an annual rate lower than .008% of all homosexuals in the military.

And for that miniscule effect (if it exists at all) some want the government to officially affirm homosexuality as “normal”. Maybe the homosexual activists would do better to just say they want society to affirm homosexuality as normal by Constitutional amendment or something, and stop trying to make it look like some big injustice is somehow being done with an innocuous policy like DADT.
 
And for that miniscule effect (if it exists at all) some want the government to officially affirm homosexuality as “normal”.
No.

Where are you quoting “normal” from? No one is asking the military to “officially affirm” ANY sexuality as “normal.” This argument is used only as a strawman.
 
Well, your source (which you do not link) says 14,000 have been discharged for violating DADT in the last 15 years, ( .0004%/year) and that their doing so cost $364 million in wasted training costs. The rest of your post is just your supposition, unsupported by anything. If we assume the percentage of homosexuals in the military is about the same as in the population at large, about .008% of the homosexuals in the military have been adversely affected by DADT for ALL the reasons they were affected. Some number, you say, “came out” in order to protest, so the maximum percentage of homosexuals you think (but did not prove) were “railroaded” would be an annual rate lower than .008% of all homosexuals in the military.

And for that miniscule effect (if it exists at all) some want the government to officially affirm homosexuality as “normal”. Maybe the homosexual activists would do better to just say they want society to affirm homosexuality as normal by Constitutional amendment or something, and stop trying to make it look like some big injustice is somehow being done with an innocuous policy like DADT.
Well, now that I know that injustice, betrayal of trust and weakening of national defense is only happening in modest doses, I can rest easy and let the whole thing drop. Now that we look at it in the warm light of moral relativism, what was it those blacks were griping about in the 60s anyway? Only a tiny percentage of them were being lynched, and it was usually the ones who made trouble for themselves. All that unpleasantness could have been avoided if they’d just have kept their nose to the grindstone and followed a few simple boundaries…
 
No.

Where are you quoting “normal” from? No one is asking the military to “officially affirm” ANY sexuality as “normal.” This argument is used only as a strawman.
Possibly you really do think that. But I don’t see how you could.

By repealing DADT, the government is saying, as an official act, that there is no distinction between heterosexual relationships (which all non-homosexual soldiers have had throughout the ages) and homosexual relationships. It will be as clear a message to society as could possibly be imagined that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equivelant; just two variations of “normal”. In an age in which parents are fighting (and often losing) to keep their children from having to read “Heather Has Two Mommies” or some other homosexualist propaganda imposed on them by some governmental unit or other, does anybody who has attained the age of reason actually think there won’t be additional propaganda about “G.I. Joe and his spouse, Ken” when DADT is repealed? Does anybody truly believe there won’t be uniformed soldiers in gay rights parades, or citations that “Well if the military is okay with it, why not adopt it in other ways in society, like marriage”? Does anybody actually think the next thing after DADT will not be post housing for one’s “other” and spousal allowances, homosexual couples at official functions, etc?

The current government would surely like to impose homosexual “equivalency” in every way in this society. DADT is one of those ways, because it is a radical government that wants to change society in many ways; that being one of them. The homosexual lobby has a lot of clout with this administration, and it will get it done in every way the two of them can manage. DADT is only one of those ways.

I am just thunderstruck that people who argue (here and elsewhere) that, well, there really is no significance in official government affirmation of things; that it has no societal effect. Here we are, in what is possibly the most orthodox Catholic site on the internet, and yet we do see some affirm abortion, fetal stem cell research and “homosexual marriage”, notwithstanding that all are considered extremely immoral by the Church.

Yes, I know. “You can’t impose your morality on society”. I have heard that one a million times if I have heard it once. That argument would work for murder as well as homosexual proselytizing. But you can certainly do it negatively, and it happens all the time. Governments can certainly have a negative influence on the mores of a society, and history (including our own) is replete with examples of it. And so, if a person advocates the promotion of homosexuality by superimposing it on a heretofore revered institution like the military, then he is free to do that as a citizen. As a Catholic, however, I cannot favor something that my Church teaches (and I believe) is is immoral, and I cannot favor the government endorsement of that thing. I cannot personally approve government affirmation of homosexuality any more than I can approve its affirmation of abortion or fetal stem cell research. Nor should any Catholic. I’ll grant, there are those who do.

It would be refreshing, I think, if homosexual promoters really were just honest about it and said their objective is to equate, in the minds of the public and particuarly the young, that there is really no difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality. But I’ll grant it is easier to eat away at public mores around the edges than it is to come clean and just say they’re just as okay with “Barbie and Suzie” as they are with “Barbie and Ken”, in every way, and that they really want to teach that to children.

But again, never fear. This president has promised his homosexual activist constituency that he will repeal DADT and he will make good on that promise. Why hasn’t he done it yet? Well, we still have two wars going in Islamic countries, and he’s a bit sensitive about creating negative images of U.S. soldiers in that area right now. Maybe he’ll repeal DADT before he has withdrawn from those wars. Certainly, he will do so after.

I remember reading long ago about the plight of parents in Eastern Bloc countries, particularly Poland, timorously awaiting that day when they felt they finally had to tell their children “No, what the government is telling you is all lies.” We’ll get there too, and government affirmation of homosexuality as “normal” is just one of those lies.
 
Yes Bro, I understand exactly what you’re saying it’s just I don’t understand the double standards?

The military can truck in prostitutes into Camps have massage parlors connected to gyms and you can pay extra for that special massage put have homosexuals in the military find out about them then kicked them out!

If you’re heterosexual it’s ok to be with prostitutes? Just call me a dumb Polock I don’t get it?

Why is no one upset about the law enforcement departments all over this country they hire homosexual men and women who everyday put their lives on the line to enforce the law and protect us?

Homosexuals in our armed forces putting their lives on the line to protect our freedom? No, no, no, kick them out; they’re not good enough.

As for the Australia, Canada, and United Kingdom, I really don’t care about their cultures I care about their armed forces, they’re are professional and equal to ours that’s what counts on the battlefield.
They may be equal to your US Army but not the US Armed Forces. Also, the British Royal Marines follow the DADT “plan” and will actively discharge those with a lifestyle incompatible with military life.

Just because it’s popular in society does not mean it’s compatible with military life.
Semper Fi
 
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