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Rau
Guest
Equality of opportunity is a myth. The family into which you are born is the major determinant of opportunity. It can provide you with a “free” education (at the best school), no debts a good first job and more.
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Rau
Guest
I understand you have read some “real” history. But I suspect you are not seeing modern reality so clearly.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
What business can better afford a high minimum wage…Walmart, Target or the small neighborhood store???
A hike in minimum wage is the best political investment large business can make. It will guarantee the elimination of competition.
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jimmy
Guest
The only thing it would do is turn a 15 dollar an hour job into a minimum wage job. The people who will be hurt by raising the minimum wage will be the middle class. 15 dollars will be worth far less. So those who currently make 15 dollars an hour will still only make 15 dollars an hour, but their 15 dollars will be worth what is now 10 dollars. The rich will remain unaffected.
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JimG
Guest
If the government is going to engage in price fixing, economic distortion is inevitable. If it sets a minimum wage, can a maximum wage be far behind?
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sallybutler
Guest
A maximum wage was tried during WWII. That is when many employers started offering other benefits besides wages.
Many of the laws are based on moral issues. Think of minimum wage laws as similiar to laws that prevent/punish robbery, burglary, assault, fraud, etc. Most people do not do these things because they don’t want the punishment that goes along with being caught. However, that does not mean that they wouldn’t do it if they could get away with it, nor does it prevent everyone from doing it (there is always someone available to break any law). However, it does help the vast majority of us a) know what is the right thing and b) do the right thing.
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JimG
Guest
Well it’s true that even laws prohibiting moral absolutes like murder are not always adhered to, especially if there are economic incentives for murder. I think of the drug trade, for example, where the economic incentives apparently outweigh both the law and the moral imperatives.
But economic laws like minimum wage tend to be followed more widely, because no company wants to be fined or have sanctions. Not only that, but the mere existence of a minimum wage means that potential workers will not work for less. It also means, however, that those who would be willing to work for less but can’t find jobs will in fact be deprived of work which they might willingly have taken if offered. So it tends to shrink total job availability.
If the minimum wage is below what the existing market would support, it will have little effect, but if it is an above market wage, it will tend to drive inflation. (Just as automatic cost of living adjustments also drive inflation.)
Your mention of the WW-II attempts to hold down maximum wages illustrates too that when one thing is capped, like wages, the market responds in some other way—like offering health care and other perks. Trying to control for all the variables is, I think, beyond the capability of bureaucrats.
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jimmy
Guest
So it is fine for us to all be dirt poor, as long as we know that it is bad to have money.
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sallybutler
Guest
I’m not sure how you got that from what I wrote. I think we need a minimum wage and it should be higher than it is now and it should be indexed to inflation. I think there are too many people who would like to pay people next to nothing if they could.
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DarkLight
Guest
I think we’re already having to account for other factors. For example I think there’s been an upwards creep of who’s offered the jobs. A lot more places are saying workers must be 18 or older and have a high school degree just for entry-level jobs. You need a college degree to get a job above the minimum but a bachelor’s degree doesn’t guarantee you a job above minimum wage.
Similarly, a lot more places are unwilling to work around school schedules or public transit schedules. Not having a car outside an urban center might make you ineligible for a job. Not having a cell phone of some sort might also, especially with apartments often not having landline hookups. 30-hour a week part-time (and thus benefit free) jobs that require open availability are more common as well, meaning young adults have to make other arrangements for insurance and often may not be able to get a full work week.
Similarly, a lot more places are unwilling to work around school schedules or public transit schedules. Not having a car outside an urban center might make you ineligible for a job. Not having a cell phone of some sort might also, especially with apartments often not having landline hookups. 30-hour a week part-time (and thus benefit free) jobs that require open availability are more common as well, meaning young adults have to make other arrangements for insurance and often may not be able to get a full work week.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
If the government forces an employer to pay a wage that is higher than what the employee or the job is worth…that is blatant THEFT.
It is morally wrong for us to forcibly take that which is not ours. (Thou shalt not steal) Since we establish the government, we cannot empower the government to do what is morally wrong…(take from others) When government oversteps its limitations it is acting beyond its authority and contrary to reason.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
Actually, there is no way that the government can force someone to pay more for something than it is worth. It would be a pretty stupid business who would hire people and pay them more than they are worth. If the minimum wage is $20 an hour and a business agrees to pay me that, nobody has any right to complain about theft because the business was not forced to hire me in the first place.
Nobody is forcing companies to hire people at the minimum wage.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Oh sure there is a way…it’s called a LAW.
That is very true.
If the business finds someone who will work for $10 an hour, and the business is FORCED (by law) to pay $20 then the business has every right to complain. As a very wise man once said : " It would be a pretty stupid business who would hire people and pay them more than they are worth."
The minimum wage law (the FLSA) applies to employees of enterprises that have annual gross volume of sales or business done of at least $500,000. It also applies to employees of smaller firms if the employees are engaged in interstate commerce or in the production of goods for commerce, such as employees who work in transportation or communications or who regularly use the mails or telephones for interstate communications. Other persons, such as guards, janitors, and maintenance employees who perform duties which are closely related and directly essential to such interstate activities are also covered by the FLSA. It also applies to employees of federal, state or local government agencies, hospitals and schools, and it generally applies to domestic workers.
The Dept of Labor, Wage and Hour Division investigators can bring criminal or civil charges against employers for violating the min wage law.
THAT IS FORCE!!!
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styrgwillidar
Guest
I think their point is the business can just opt to not hire new workers, or fire any of those whose wages would be raised unaffordably under an increase to the minimum wage.
You’re not forced to hire new people or raise wages, you can shut down your business instead, choose not to expand, fire those employees which aren’t affordable…
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stinkcat_14
Guest
They may complain, but it is not theft. The business can choose to hire nobody, it can choose to use more capital and less labor. If a business chooses to hire someone for $20 an hour, it is certain proof that there is no theft.
In my business, I hire nobody, at the minimum wage or otherwise. So how is the government going to force me to hire people at the minimum wage? They cannot. If I do hire someone at the minimum wage, it will because they are worth more than the minimum wage, nobody will be stealing from me.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
But that thinking goes against everything private business stands for.
Business wants and needs to expand. Without prospects for growth, business moves elsewhere (overseas) or closes down.
Are you suggesting that the “Detroit Syndrome” should be the goal of American business???
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sallybutler
Guest
Generally, there needs to be an actual or expected demand for a product that is greater than what can be currently supported that causes growth. If there are no potential clients why would one hire at any wage. Customers are responsible for growth or lack thereof. If one can’t afford minimum wage, maybe the business model being used is wrong.
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JimG
Guest
Yes, this is true, and it explains why minimum wage laws tend to have an overall depressive effect on employment.
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