Miracles in other religions

[josie_L]

So, life doesn’t really begin until we die.

So, this real life in the visible world, is just a trial, until our invisible spirit life that lasts for eternity begins after we die.

Yeah, when I put it that way, it doesn’t sound so plausible, now does it.

Yes it does sound plausible, you lack faith my friend to see it.

P.S. Although I never said that our life here doesn’t have meaning or purpose, it is in many ways a preparation of things to come, emphasis should be put on the afterlife.

 

[josie_L]

This is a thread about divine miracles directly from Gods intervention. I am aware that many Christians put themselves to work to help out all kinds of people.

But what if by prayer we ask for God to bring about a great harvest, or a cure, or that more people would be willing to help and sacrifice, or that He ease the pain of one suffering, or that he get rid of corrupt governments who greedily take from the poor . . .etc.

 

[phantasm]

But what if by prayer we ask for God to bring about a great harvest, or a cure, or that more people would be willing to help and sacrifice, or that He ease the pain of one suffering, or that he get rid of corrupt governments who greedily take from the poor . . .etc.

Nothing will happen by that prayer.

 

[josie_L]

Nothing will happen by that prayer.

I feel sorry that you don’t believe that. What makes you so certain they are not answered?

 

[phantasm]

I feel sorry that you don’t believe that. What makes you so certain they are not answered?

Please, don’t feel sorry for me, I don’t need your pity.

I am certain that prayers are not answered, for the simple fact that nothing supernatural happens in our natural world and in our natural universe.

 

[DLClark]

What do you mean by “miraculous” occurances?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

…I am certain that prayers are not answered,

Muslims believe , prayers are answered in several ways.

1. God will give us what we want
2. God will grant what is good for us
3. God removes our sins because of prayers
4. some dangers those were supposed to take place won’t happen
5. We will get best rewards on the Final Day.

So , please don’t think that our prayers are not answered . Sometimes we can’t understand it but it’s impossible that God , the most kind , Ever merciful don’t listen to our prayers.

 

[deb1]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Muslims believe , prayers are answered in several ways.

1. God will give us what we want
2. God will grant what is good for us
3. God removes our sins because of prayers
4. some dangers those were supposed to take place won’t happen
5. We will get best rewards on the Final Day.

So , please don’t think that our prayers are not answered . Sometimes we can’t understand it but it’s impossible that God , the most kind , Ever merciful don’t listen to our prayers.

God knows what we really want even when we don’t understand ourselves. When I was 19, I was madly in love with a young man. We broke up and I prayed that he would come back. He didn’t. Instead I met my husband who is the best match for me. God knew that my deep desire was not that particular young man but to meet someone who I was comfortable with, enjoyed their company and shared their values with. God is pretty amazing.

 

[wcknight]

My real world includes the supernatural, your world is limited to what you personally can see, touch or feel. You don’t believe what you personally have not experienced. If there are spirits you personally want to see it. If there are miracles, you personally want to be there.

The fact that many other folks have seen or experienced them is of no consequence to you, so you discount them as lies, delusions, or hoaxes. But the really sad thing is, even IF God were to show you some miracles, or you were to experience an apparition, chances are you would think your mind was playing tricks on you. You are the ultimate doubting Thomas. Sadly you are not alone, there are millions of folks like you out there, including myself about 25 years ago and including my kids now.

Miracles happen for folks similar to you, but your cynicism has narrowed your acceptance of what is a miracle down to a very narrow view of what is supernatural. I personally have not experienced a first hand bona fide miracle, but I know a few folks who have. I know a couple of folks who had so called near death experiences and I know a couple of folks who meet and talked to relatives or friends who had passed away.

But even if I didn’t hear of these things, I still would believe in the miracles performed by the various saints. For a long time, I too doubted whether Christianity was what it claimed to be, but the more I read about the various folks who performed hundreds of miracles, the more I came to realize that these folks all were incredibly holy people (not to mention that they were all Catholic). None of them did it for fame or fortune (unlike some of our modern day charlatans). And all proclaimed that what Jesus and His Church was telling us was absolutely true.

The consistentcy of the message, the fact that none of these folks contradicted the Church (even though at times some of them were poorly treated by some of its hierarchy), and the fact that various saints have been in every century since the time of Christ convinces me that Jesus and His Church, are what they claim to be.

IF one were to conclude that Jesus and His Chruch were a complete fabrication, then they would have to show that ALL of the holy and upright folks were lying and perpetrating a centuries long hoax. A hoax in which most of the folks lived lives of abject proverty and self imposed suffering and hard ship merely for the sake of trying to fool everyone around them. I find it much more impossible to believe that all of these folks were delusional and carrying out an on going hoax than I find it to believe that what they were all saying is true.

 

[josie_L]

Please, don’t feel sorry for me, I don’t need your pity.

I am certain that prayers are not answered, for the simple fact that nothing supernatural happens in our natural world and in our natural universe.

That is because you refuse to see the supernatural, I myself have experienced the supernatural. Also, there have been many cases of the supernatural which have no scientific explanation, case in point, the Lanciano miracle.

 

[phantasm]

My real world includes the supernatural, your world is limited to what you personally can see, touch or feel. You don’t believe what you personally have not experienced. If there are spirits you personally want to see it. If there are miracles, you personally want to be there.

The fact that many other folks have seen or experienced them is of no consequence to you, so you discount them as lies, delusions, or hoaxes.

By your logic, I can assume that you absolutely believe in alien abductions. The fact that some many other folks have experienced them, is of absolute consequence to you and by your logic, you must believe their stories as valid.

I am not trying to be crude, but there is also a perplexing obsession by alien abductee’s to
insist that aliens performed anal probes upon their paralyzed bodies.

Again, by your logic, you must absolutely believe that is truth, reality and is presently happening, as so many people report to have experienced this personally and so many people believe it.

I can also assume, that you have never personally seen an alien abduction, yet, by your logic, that is no reason to discount this amazing truth.

Am I correct, in that you do believe in alien abductions and the anal probing that is said to take place or do you find those claims ridiculous and you pay them no mind.

If it is the former, then congratulations, you are at least consistent in applying your standards.

If it is the latter, you do have some explaining to do, as there is no difference when your logic is applied.

You have freely entered this debate and I do expect an honest answer.

 

[phantasm]

That is because you refuse to see the supernatural, I myself have experienced the supernatural. Also, there have been many cases of the supernatural which have no scientific explanation, case in point, the Lanciano miracle.

and alien abduction. It’s true, you just refuse to see it. Lots of people have personally experienced being abducted by aliens.

Your just blind to the truth and you refuse to believe in alien races who visit us and abduct humans.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Of course, you all scoff and chuckle at my inane analogy, yet you are truly blind in understanding that your insistence in the divine, is no different than an alien abduction devotee.

 

[phantasm]

IF one were to conclude that Jesus and His Chruch were a complete fabrication, then they would have to show that ALL of the holy and upright folks were lying and perpetrating a centuries long hoax.

It only takes a handful of liars to take a myth, turn it into a reality, and the rest of the believers are not liars, but misguided sheep.

Don’t be so hard on the believers or even the clergy, as they are unwitting victims and not, as you suppose, deliberate liars.

 

[dianaiad]

It only takes a handful of liars to take a myth, turn it into a reality, and the rest of the believers are not liars, but misguided sheep.

Don’t be so hard on the believers or even the clergy, as they are unwitting victims and not, as you suppose, deliberate liars.

Actually, miracles happen all the time…and those who report and believe in them are not liars.

Nor are such miracles restricted to one specific belief system; they are the result of faith. Perhaps someday we will come to understand the process behind it, but for right now? Faith. Jesus told us that if we had but the faith of a mustard seed–so very tiny–we can move mountains.

(shrug) I believe that this has been proven over and over again, both anecdotally and (here’s a swear word for you…) scientifically.

For instance…my mother and I picked a truck up off of my father after it had fallen off the blocks and pinned him. He couldn’t breathe. Now my mother is five feet two inches, and I’m 5’8"…and at the time, between us, we didn’t weigh 230 pounds. After we lifted the truck, I held it and she dragged him out from underneath it. He’s 6 feet and at the time he weighed 180 lb. of muscle. When the ambulance got there, three firemen attempted to lift that truck the way we had, and they could not do it.

Now THAT is a miracle. Even if you start talking about adrenalin and all, it’s still a miracle–because no matter what the physical process was that actually allowed us to do it, it was our faith that we COULD do it that mattered. It’s becoming a fairly ‘ho-hum’ sort of miracle, because science is beginning to understand the process of what happens to the body when someone performs such a feat. What it has not yet, and can’t seem to get a handle on, is what happens to the mind to prompt such a thing. Why can some people do this…and some can’t? Why can they do it sometimes, and not at others? Trust me, I haven’t been able to pick up a truck since that day.

It’s faith…and faith prompts miracles.

There are some people who laugh at the idea of Christ’s image on a potato chip–but to the person who sees it, and believes in it, it is a true miracle. If that image prompts the faith required for a miracle, then who are the rest of us to laugh at it? I may not get all excited about a weeping statue, but to those for whom such events are faith building, they truly ARE faith building, and the miracles that may result from them are true miracles.

As for me, my miracles are simpler, easy to find, and very common; every time someone has faith enough to think he can do something–something others don’t think he can do–that’s a miracle.

It may or may not qualify as ‘supernatural,’ but it is, nevertheless, a miracle.

 

[phantasm]

Actually, miracles happen all the time…and those who report and believe in them are not liars.

Actually, alien abductions happen all the time…all those who report and believe in the are not liars or deluded.

For instance…my mother and I picked a truck up off of my father after it had fallen off the blocks and pinned him. He couldn’t breathe. Now my mother is five feet two inches, and I’m 5’8"…and at the time, between us, we didn’t weigh 230 pounds. After we lifted the truck, I held it and she dragged him out from underneath it. He’s 6 feet and at the time he weighed 180 lb. of muscle. When the ambulance got there, three firemen attempted to lift that truck the way we had, and they could not do it.

Now THAT is a miracle. Even if you start talking about adrenalin and all, it’s still a miracle–because no matter what the physical process was that actually allowed us to do it, it was our faith that we COULD do it that mattered. It’s becoming a fairly ‘ho-hum’ sort of miracle, because science is beginning to understand the process of what happens to the body when someone performs such a feat. What it has not yet, and can’t seem to get a handle on, is what happens to the mind to prompt such a thing. Why can some people do this…and some can’t? Why can they do it sometimes, and not at others? Trust me, I haven’t been able to pick up a truck since that day.

I do not believe this story, not for one second. You make this claim…

"When the ambulance got there, three firemen attempted to lift that truck the way we had, and they could not do it. "

Your father was dragged out from under the car and the firemen stood around, performing out feats of strength by attempting to lift the truck.

That is laughable, as your father is nearly crushed to death and being tended to by paramedics, a bunch of firemen start performing feats of strength.

Regardless, your story ( which I don’t believe) such a feat is possible without the divine intervention from a supernatural invisible God.

It is simply a physiological response to stress, in which the brain floods the body with endorphins and adrenalin, allowing the human body to perform outside of its normal limitations.

So, there is a natural explanation as to why such a thing is possible, therefor it DOES NOT FALL IN THE CATEGORY OF A MIRACLE. Miracles must have no natural explanation, and thus, the explanation is one of the divine.

There are some people who laugh at the idea of Christ’s image on a potato chip–but to the person who sees it, and believes in it, it is a true miracle.

There are some people who laugh at the idea of alien abductions, but to the person who has been abducted by aliens and believes it, it is a true and real supernatural event.

As for me, my miracles are simpler, easy to find, and very common; every time someone has faith enough to think he can do something–something others don’t think he can do–that’s a miracle.

So, a youth making a competitive baseball team, contrary to what most people thought, is, a divine miracle from the creator of the universe and there is no natural explanation as to how that youth made the ball team?

 

[dianaiad]

Actually, alien abductions happen all the time…all those who report and believe in the are not liars or deluded.

I do not believe this story, not for one second. You make this claim…

"When the ambulance got there, three firemen attempted to lift that truck the way we had, and they could not do it.

Your father was dragged out from under the car and the firemen stood around, performing out feats of strength by attempting to lift the truck.

That is laughable, as your father is nearly crushed to death and being tended to by paramedics, a bunch of firemen start performing feats of strength.

Well, I can’t control whether you believe it, but I do have to ask…what makes you think that anybody was around desperately working on Dad at the time? The point of the story was that he was ‘nearly’ crushed to death. That’s rather like saying that he was ‘nearly’ shot, but the bullet missed him. If it missed him, it doesn’t matter how close it came, there’s still no hole that needs patching up, right?

Since Mom and I were able to get the truck off of him, and Mom got him out from underneath it, he was in no danger, was he? No truck on him. He was taken to the hospital, checked out. told he had some bruised ribs and possibly a bruised lung (more serious by far than the ribs…) and to take it easy for a few days. He was sitting up and describing the incident to the paramedics, and the firemen decided that if Mom and I could pick the thing up off of Dad, then THEY could pick it up and put it back on the blocks.

They couldn’t. They had to use jacks.

(shrug) You believe as you wish; it’s not as if I have pictures or anything. However, incidents like this are not all that uncommon. Usually they involve one very small person, not two, and far more impressive feats of strength.

Regardless, your story ( which I don’t believe)

You said that already.Whether you believe my story or not, I suggest you do some research; incidents like my ‘story’ are not a bit unheard of in scientific and/or medical circles. In fact, I know very few people who don’t have something similar that they could relate in their own lives…including, I’ll bet, you if you think about it. You’ve never had a time in your life when you performed to a level that you didn’t think you could, and that later was very difficult, if not impossible, to repeat?

Or, since you have no faith in anything except what you ‘know’ you are capable of in daily life, perhaps you haven’t.

such a feat is possible without the divine intervention from a supernatural invisible God.

You need to make up your mind; if it is possible at all, then there is really no reason for you to be so adamant about disbelieving my claim. After all, it’s not as if I were telling you that I had a friend who told me that she did it, or that I had a friend who told me her cousin did this. *I *did it. First hand knowledge, first hand experience.

Nor is it improbable; such things happen all the time.

By the way, I said that it was faith that was the cause; I didn’t mention that it had to be faith in a “supernatural invisible God.” For Mom and me, it was, but hey…whatever. Believe me or not as you wish.

It is simply a physiological response to stress, in which the brain floods the body with endorphins and adrenalin, allowing the human body to perform outside of its normal limitations.

Ok, you are quite right; that is the mechanism. However, what is it that prompts the release of those endorphins and adrenalin in one person in such a situation, thus making him capable of extraordinary feats, and another in the same sort of situation does not get that–and can’t do whatever it is that needs doing? What is it in the mind that flips the switch that releases the chemicals?

I will call that faith; the belief that you can do whatever is needed even though ordinarily you cant, and the willingness to go do it. The endorphins you talk about are simply the response to that faith, not the cause of it.

So, there is a natural explanation as to why such a thing is possible, therefor it DOES NOT FALL IN THE CATEGORY OF A MIRACLE. Miracles must have no natural explanation, and thus, the explanation is one of the divine.

Why can’t miracles have a natural explanation? Or rather, why can’t we identify the processes by which miracles are accomplished? Who died and made you God’s boss, so that you can dictate to Him how to do things?

If we are gaining a small glimpse of how those processes work, that doesn’t mean that they are any less miraculous than they were a thousand years ago when we had no other explanation than ‘divine intervention.’ It just means that we are getting to a point where we can begin to describe some of what happens. (shrug)

There are some people who laugh at the idea of alien abductions, but to the person who has been abducted by aliens and believes it, it is a true and real supernatural event.

Well, that’s fine for him. I’ve never been abducted by aliens, so I can’t tell you. I have, however, lifted a truck off of my father. Do with that what you wish.

So, a youth making a competitive baseball team, contrary to what most people thought, is, a divine miracle from the creator of the universe and there is no natural explanation as to how that youth made the ball team?

Depends on the youth and the team, seems to me…

 

[josie_L]

and alien abduction. It’s true, you just refuse to see it. Lots of people have personally experienced being abducted by aliens.

Your just blind to the truth and you refuse to believe in alien races who visit us and abduct humans.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Of course, you all scoff and chuckle at my inane analogy, yet you are truly blind in understanding that your insistence in the divine, is no different than an alien abduction devotee.

The difference with alien abduction is that the only person purported to have seen and experienced it, is the abductee, the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano on the other hand has been seen by countless people and verified by many scientists from the WHO. All of them concur that science cannot explain this singular phenomenon. Try harder, next time Phantasm. God bless.

P.S. The Vatican has allowed (Catholics can entertain the thought) for the possibility of extra terrestrials.

 

[dianaiad]

The difference with alien abduction is that the only person purported to have seen and experienced it, is the abductee, the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano on the other hand has been seen by countless people and verified by many scientists from the WHO. All of them concur that science cannot explain this singular phenomenon. Try harder, next time Phantasm. God bless.

P.S. The Vatican has allowed (Catholics can entertain the thought) for the possibility of extra terrestrials.

So does science.

So does pure common sense…and that would be especially true if you happened to be an atheist. After all, if our presence on this planet is because of sheer luck…or the natural result of understandable physical and biological processes, the sheer size of the universe demands that there is life out there other than our own.The true ‘miracle’ wouldn’t be that there IS life—but rather that there isn’t.

Whether any of 'em are using earth as a wilderness vacation spot?

(shrug) Don’t see the sense in it, myself, but I suppose it takes all kinds.

As to the idea that these aliens would be out to ‘get’ us for the purpose of conquering the planet; who’d WANT it? If they (whoever ‘they’ might be) had the technology to get here, they have the technology to find another place that wasn’t quite so…infested.

 

[Detales]

Phantasm,

I see that you have some meaningful things to contribute. Nevertheless, the general tone of your posts is, in my interpretation, dirisive. I have read them on several threads, and that one word, to me, seems a fairly accurate discriptor. I’m guessing that there are emotional factors involved in what seems a defensive and generally reacitve attitude. It is why I haven’t responded to other of your posts, even ones that contained useful material.

Nevertheless, I feel it necessary for me to jump in on this one, as your negativeity is blinding you from at least some aspects of actuality. I’m speaking here specifically of your denial of Dianaiad’s story. I’m here to support that on the following grounds:

I worked in a bakery in Tucson, AZ. The owner was a German woman who was, by any assesment, on the frail side. She had started the bakery as an income source after her husband had died of cancer. One day we wer talking about unusual events in our lives and she told this story:

She was in the kitchen at home and heard a loud thump and her husband screaming. He had been working under their car when the supports collapsed, pinning him. She ran out, and seeing the situation, grabbed the back bumper of the car, and lifted it off her husband. Her husband was able to get out from under the car before she dropped it. This was one of those cars from the old days the was made of steel with those heavy chrome bumpers. Her daughters, who were there as witnesses to the incident, verified this, as they were working there at the bakery that day. I have hears similar stories of feats of such strength in emergencies. They are not to be scoffed at, whatever the explanation.

In fact, though I am a great sceptic in terms of believing many alleged phenomenon, and being someone who has debunked a few such incidents, I must yet say that there are stranger things in the world than our mind can explain. There are books that catalog documented cases of these, eg, *The Book of the Damned *by CH Fort. I myself have experienced both an OBE and NDE. I know people who are competent, sane, and reliable in their observations who have reported things that are nothing short of amazing, from levitations to physical impossibilities.

We might also note here that perspecitve has an effect on our perception of neutral objects. An easy example here is the optical illusion. In a classic one we can see either a vase or two profiles. It is in where we put our attention. What if we are culturally trained to see only one way and not the other, therefore being unaware of an existing dynamic? EG, there is the case of the forest dweller who as an adult took his first trip up a mountain on the plains. He noted the impossibly small buffalo on the plain, refusing to understand that they were full sized animals, but very far away. He had just never seen anything farther that a couple of hundred feet away. True story. Similary, an Inuit translation of the Bible had to use the phrase “seal pup of God,” no one in that culture understanding what a lamb is. Same with “magic pictures” I know people who to this day cannot see them in their 3-D phase. Yet, if you look correctly, it is there.

Now granted that many such reports as we hear of, as I will attest, are illusions. Yet there are those that are genuinely inexplicable. I have seen a few of these as well. My Mentor said that “Miracle is the lessening of the objective confinement.” And Isaac Asimov said that “any technology, sufficiently advanced, appears to be magic.” It may be that miracles are not circumventions of the laws of physics, but manifestations of laws we don’t yet understand. It is also reasonable, since we expereince only a very small portion of the EM spectrum, that there is a continuity beyond our senses of sensient beings. We cannot rule that out.

Again, it used to be that it took years to overcome phobias. I have learned a way that even serious PTSD manifestations can be reduced in about ten minutes. Compared to how those are commonly treated, that seems a miracle. But it is knowledge. Certainly there are other areas where similar “shortcuts” can happen in the world. I’m not advocating, necessarily, that they are interventions authored by a Divine “person”, but that such things do occur cannot be denied. It is arrogance to summarily dismiss the bizzar because we don’t believe or can’t explain it. Just remember the farmer who didn’t see the steam engine in front of him because it was “impossible.” Is there a bit of him in you?

 

[wcknight]

I’ve never met anyone who claimed to be abducted by aliens, however I have personally seen an UFO, not up close but traveling at an incredibly high speed, so since I obviously believe that UFOs exists and probably alien visitations as well. I do NOT exclude the possibility of alien abductions.

But the thing about some myths from saints is the reliability of the so called witnesses and the folks who experienced these things. The saints quite obviously are of a very high moral character, most if not all have been examined by doctors and psychologists. It is your opinion that these very holy people are prone to lying and perpetraing hoaxes. That is certainly a possibility but given their moral character very unlikely. Most times outrageous claims cause a lot more pain and suffering than they cause honor or glory. The Church takes all such claims very seriously, and are more likely to persecute than honor these folks.

If the abductees are of a similar reliable background, I would see no reasin for them to lie either. Your supposition that it only takes a few liars to make the supernatural all a hoax is way off base. IF all of these folks are lying then you are talking about hundreds and probably thousands who have witnessed the supernatural events. Take Padre Pio who lived in the 20th century (died around 1960). Many folks saw and examined his stigmatata type wounds including several doctors. But on the day after his death his mounds miraculously healed instantly. For one day to the next, they were gone.

For another, let’s look at St. Anthony of Padua. His father was on trial for murder, St. Anthony was still enroute to the trial but he was able to bi-locate and appear at his father’s trial. There he had the magistrate exhume the body of the victim. And the dead man sat up and testified that the father was not his murderer. Several dozen folks probably witnessed this multi-faceted miracle, so all would have had to be lying to collaborate on this hoax.

The truth is no matter what you may define as a true miracle, even IF some one were to grow a new arm or new leg, or even a new head, you would not believe. It has already happened that several people have been raised from the dead and not just Christ. Yet you do not believe. Is it more impossible for someone to grow a new limb or to be brought back from the dead ?

You obviously think the later because you think one is a normal event while another is not. That’s where you are wrong God is perfectly capable of either event, why he sometimes does one and not the other is anyone’s guess. Maybe it’s simply to give you skeptics something to hang your hat on.