Miracles to convince me, a non-believer

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I have several online friends in Oz. My dream to actually visit there. Somewhere, there is a mystical connection.
 
I love miracles, but they are just the icing on the cake. The foundation of faith is realizing that all things of this world pass away. Our existence is so fleeting and a blip on the radar of time, what is the point of it all? Ask yourself how and why human beings have evolved into a higher level of consciousness. Ask why there are universal truths and values. Why is murder wrong? Why is life good? We are meant for more than just existence.

Faith is giving up the idea that everything is about me and what I want. Faith is about interconnectedness between us, God, and the other people of God. Faith is trust that there is a loving and benevolent plan after death. Would I want nothingness instead of all that? Heck no.
 
Eddie18 said:
What other miracle do you have in mind?
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The miracle itself is of secondary importance to the question that it raises. That if a well documented, contemporary miracle with what every reasonable person would grant as having a greater weight of evidence than, for example, Fatima, and is rejected as a supernatural event by those you would accept as being authoratitive in this area, then it casts serious doubt on less well documented miracles.

And within the question lies the answer. That those miracles which can be tested and examined at time they occur by disinterested observers are passed over. The ones that are brought to the fore are those which cannot.

Miracles are believed as an act of faith. People have faith that what they have been told is true. That reports of what people say they saw is accurate. That what they actually saw was an accurate representation of the facts.

The problem with some miracles is that they are too well defined. That too many people saw them. That it was all too easy to check what was actually happening. When there is too much information there is a danger that you will look foolish in accepting an event as a miracle when it could easily be shown to be blind faith pulling the strings.

The church doesn’t want to look foolish. It requires a leap of faith to believe in that which it declares to be a miracle. Anything that could be.proved is left very well alone.

I find that to be entirely understandable. If not entirely honest.
 
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FiveLinden,

I have been given the gift of faith. You apparently have not. You will loose nothing if you ask almighty God for this gift. If you ask and nothing happens, oh well. Ask again and again. If still nothing is revealed, so what. However, if you receive the gift, it will bring much joy to your life.
 
Bradskii said:
Nothwithstanding that let’s try this…

If Fatima occured within living memory so that we have the ability today to interview people who actually saw it, would that make it more or less credible?

If Fatima was seen by very many more people, some whose character and credentials could be descibed as being impeccable, would that it make it more or less credible?

If Fatima, rather than relying on eye witness acounts was actually photographed, would that make it more or less credible?

If Fatima, rather than occuring as a one off event, happened very many times over a period of months, would that make it more or less credible?

If Fatima was examined at the time it was happening by church and government officials and declared to be a miravle with no apparent natural cause, would that make it more or less credible?

Now I would suggest that any reasonable person would be in no doubt whatsoever that the miracle, in the conditions I have just given, would be much more credible. And if indeed those conditions had been met, you would be more than happy to use them in any argument to show that the miracle had definitely happened.

Would you not agree?
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The reality is, if the evidence was even better that the “miracle” happened, the faith community would JUMP all over that and shout at the top of their lungs, “See! Look at the great evidence we have! We told you all along!”

They would not just shrug it off and say “Meh, it’s nice to have more evidence, but what we had was already good enough before.”

So anyone denying the importance of better evidence in either in denial due to bias, or completely dishonest.
 
FiveLinden, I am afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. Or, rather, you are using the wrong sort of bark. You cannot come to a belief in God through demonstrable experiment the way you can come to a belief in gravity, or relativity, or a heliocentric system. Belief is only possible through faith, and faith is only possible as a gift of grace from the God whose existence you doubt. If He deems it necessary to give you such a gift, so much the better. If not, then you are, I fear, ‘up the creek without a paddle’.
 
kill051 said:
Belief is only possible through faith, and faith is only possible as a gift of grace from the God whose existence you doubt. If He deems it necessary to give you such a gift, so much the better. If not, then you are, I fear, ‘up the creek without a paddle’.
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So this gift is just purposely denied to certain individuals, as part of the better plan? And don’t give me no, “You have to try harder” because that is BS. That is cult-like verbiage to drive the person into a victim-state so that control and corrosion can be readily impressed on the individual. Hey, as long as you don’t call it free will, I’m good.
 
laylow said:
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kill051:
Belief is only possible through faith, and faith is only possible as a gift of grace from the God whose existence you doubt. If He deems it necessary to give you such a gift, so much the better. If not, then you are, I fear, ‘up the creek without a paddle’.
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So this gift is just purposely denied to certain individuals, as part of the better plan? And don’t give me no, “You have to try harder” because that is BS. That is cult-like verbiage to drive the person into a victim-state so that control and corrosion can be readily impressed on the individual. Hey, as long as you don’t call it free will, I’m good.
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Wow, the straw man rears his ugly head. To attribute words to me that I have never said and then berate me for saying them strikes me as sophistry of a particularly repugnant sort. I don’t think I’ll be engaging with you, thanks, if these are the rules of engagement.
 
Look up the Miracle of Fatima seen by hundred of people including aetheists. Of the sun moving across the sky quickly, getting bigger, shrinking, instantly drying up all the rain (there was a downpour prior to it), and hundreds of aetheists seeing Our Lady holding the Baby Jesus in her arms.
 
Ask God to give you a sign that He is real.
Pray that prayer once. and then a few times a day pray: Thank you God for giving me a sign.

Jesus answered Saint Thomas the Doubter this way, saint Thomas asked for a sign, and got one.
 
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If you cannot find evidence that God exists,

Jesus said: ‘If you do not believe Me. Believe my deeds.’

Go to a Catholic Charismatic Renewal Healing service and in Jesus Name you will see the lame walk, the blind see, the dead hear, the sick made well,
(The Vatican meticulously investigates all miracles before they approve them as being scientifically impossible), (and the Vatican Doctrinal Commission into the Catholic Charismaric Renewal have approved these prayer groups as manifesting the miracles of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Pentecost.)

Once such famous catholic healing priest is Fr Robert De Grandis,


Or Irish Layperson Eddie stones who has permission from his bishop and the Pope to exercise his miraculous healing ministry:

2008 Eddie Stones Eucharistic Healing Service


Or Bob Canton (who is a member of the Vatican ICCR catholic charismatic renewal doctrinal commission investigation) and who is active in the miraculous healing ministry:

Bro. Bob Canton - Healing Session, Worship, Ending


The bible says: ‘God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.’
Jesus said: ‘Believers will do the same works I do, they will heal the sick, cast out demons, speak in miraculous tongues,’
Jesus said: ‘If you do not believe Me, believe My Works.’

You cannot speak off miracles as being ‘psychological mutant powers’. People do not have magic powers. And neither do you.

You should give God a chance.
What have you got to lose?

If you discover the TRUTH of the catholic faith and live forever in Heaven it is worth it,
 
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Do not just push off this evidence without watching each of the links. You will see sick people being cured after being prayed for in a catholic charismatic healing service (which is approved by the Vatican’s ICCR Doctrinal Commission into the Catholic charismatic renewal).
 
I think that something that gets missed in these discussions is faith. An omniscient being would not place faith in such high regard. Faith is often spoken of as a net positive attribute, but why? The inclination to believe in things that have no evidence or are logically not sound is actually a bad thing. It’s not something to be praised. Unfortunately where faith is needed, where faith has to be the single most important thing, is when there is no God, but you need to sell people one. In that scenario faith is king. In that scenario faith must be paramount and rewards and punishments need to pushed to beyond the veil of death because no one can attest to what happens after death. That’s why miracles always appear so deficient.
 
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You asked for some evidence and some was provided which you ignored.

Check out the above evidence, and youtube clips,

Otherwise you fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah:

‘These people shall look but never perceive. Listen but never hear.’
 
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YoungCatholicGuy said:
You asked for some evidence and some was provided which you ignored.

Check out the above evidence, and youtube clips,

Otherwise you fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah:

‘These people shall look but never perceive. Listen but never hear.’
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I’m not sure you understand what evidence is.
 
kill051 said:
Wow, the straw man rears his ugly head. To attribute words to me that I have never said and then berate me for saying them strikes me as sophistry of a particularly repugnant sort. I don’t think I’ll be engaging with you, thanks, if these are the rules of engagement.
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Have it your way. It only confirms my suspicion.
 
wkj_123 said:
I think that something that gets missed in these discussions is faith. An omniscient being would not place faith in such high regard. Faith is often spoken of as a net positive attribute, but why? The inclination to believe in things that have no evidence or are logically not sound is actually a bad thing. It’s not something to be praised. Unfortunately where faith is needed, where faith has to be the single most important thing, is when there is no God, but you need to sell people one. In that scenario faith is king. In that scenario faith must be paramount and rewards and punishments need to pushed to beyond the veil of death because no one can attest to what happens after death. That’s why miracles always appear so deficient.
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Exactly. The importance of faith is amplified at the time of starting a new religion, or the religion fails. Not hard to see why it exists with such zeal.
 
laylow said:
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Bradskii:
Nothwithstanding that let’s try this…

If Fatima occured within living memory so that we have the ability today to interview people who actually saw it, would that make it more or less credible?

If Fatima was seen by very many more people, some whose character and credentials could be descibed as being impeccable, would that it make it more or less credible?

If Fatima, rather than relying on eye witness acounts was actually photographed, would that make it more or less credible?

If Fatima, rather than occuring as a one off event, happened very many times over a period of months, would that make it more or less credible?

If Fatima was examined at the time it was happening by church and government officials and declared to be a miravle with no apparent natural cause, would that make it more or less credible?

Now I would suggest that any reasonable person would be in no doubt whatsoever that the miracle, in the conditions I have just given, would be much more credible. And if indeed those conditions had been met, you would be more than happy to use them in any argument to show that the miracle had definitely happened.

Would you not agree?
Click to expand...
The reality is, if the evidence was even better that the “miracle” happened, the faith community would JUMP all over that and shout at the top of their lungs, “See! Look at the great evidence we have! We told you all along!”

They would not just shrug it off and say “Meh, it’s nice to have more evidence, but what we had was already good enough before.”

So anyone denying the importance of better evidence in either in denial due to bias, or completely dishonest.
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The problem is that your miracle has a few thousand people. And you personally grant that a certain weight. Mine has many more times that. You say that it was reported at the time and give that weight. Mine is still available in contemporary reports. You say that it happened once yet for a few minutes and give that evidence yet more weight. Mine happened many times for an hour or more at a time and for months. You say yours was investigated when actually only the reports were. Mine was investigated as it was happening.

So on those criteria alone, the miracle that should be treated as valid is mine. Every piece of evidence I have available trumps yours. Even the Coptic church accepts it.

So if one miracle is turned down by the Catholic church with such a weight of evidence, then why should I accept another with less?

That’s a question you need to ask yourself. The miracle was in Zeitoun incidentally. Imagine the mother of Jesus making an appearance and hardly anyone knows about it.

Too easily falsifiable I’m afraid.
 
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