Miserable with NFP!

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1234 said:
Why do you assume that those who oppose the RC church’s stance are lazy secular materialists?
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:hmmm: speaking of assuming…where did she ever state that "those who oppose the RC church’s stance are lazy secular materialists?
1234 said:
We oppose the stance because we feel that the RC church is wrong and that it is dangerously wrong.
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Again, the teachings of the Church are not up for debate and since you have reached a point in your life that you feel that it is okay to take a stance againt the Catholic Church, then by all means, continue to practice what you preach, but that does not mean that those that choose to follow Her teachings are wrong.
1234 said:
We feel that the control of human population is vital not only to the health of this planet but to its very survival and that of the human race.

You think that you are the only ‘principled’ person or group in the world because of your position; you are not.

Environmentalists, like me, do a great deal that is difficult and expensive and uncomfortable to create a better world. Our house is cold in winter, hot in summer. We pay 25% more for electricity powered by wind; we buy expensive local organic food, and will buy an expensive hybrid car the next time around. We don’t ‘shop’, travel (much), buy stuff; what we do buy is usually used. We live far below our means. Our credo is reduce, reuse, recycle. We also give a lot of money to environmental groups and charities which will help pull people, mainly women, out of poverty to a better life. Education of women, along with sex education and contraception, has been shown to decrease their birth rates, poverty and abortion.

You can support your stance all you want, but the vast majority of people in the world and of the RCC do not support you. The RCC’s stance threatens the stability of the world’s population and many couple’s happiness. Fortunately, couples and populations move on and find their own solutions.
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Also, you still have yet to provide any support for your any of your claims. To this point they have merely been an opinion.
 
1234 said:
newbetx;3409336:
What you say is true. Even the last statement. At least in America.

I’m curious. 1234, Are you of any particular faith? What DO you feel about families with more than two children?
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Do you believe that if the RCC “allowed” ABC, the world’s “population problem” would go away?
What do you think the biggest problem with NFP might be?

*This thread *was started and is perpetuated by ***Catholics ***who are "Miserable with NFP". that’s the title of thread.

I posted a summary about how a non-Catholic approaches family planning, using ‘artificial’ contraception, much easier, more reliable, safer and with much more predictable outcomes.

I did not start this thread or give it the title.

I am not miserable with NFP because I don’t practice it.

If YOU want to argue about NFP, argue with those who have posted on this thread, complaining bitterly about how this ‘method’ has fouled up their marriages and family life.

Don’t try to pick a fight with me.

I wasn’t trying to pick a fight. I’m sorry if you’ve felt attacked. It was not my intention. There are enough around to pick fights. I don’t find the need to pile on, but I do wish to have healthy debate on issues and accusations against my Church.

Yes, people do have problems with NFP. As some have problems with any other method, too. And in a way, this thread has gone awry with some people arguing against those with NFP issues instead of giving them support. And by arguing with you about ABC.
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1234 said:
Why do you assume that those who oppose the RC church’s stance are lazy secular materialists?

We oppose the stance because we feel that the RC church is wrong and that it is dangerously wrong.

We feel that the control of human population is vital not only to the health of this planet but to its very survival and that of the human race.

You think that you are the only ‘principled’ person or group in the world because of your position; you are not.

Environmentalists, like me, do a great deal that is difficult and expensive and uncomfortable to create a better world. Our house is cold in winter, hot in summer. We pay 25% more for electricity powered by wind; we buy expensive local organic food, and will buy an expensive hybrid car the next time around. We don’t ‘shop’, travel (much), buy stuff; what we do buy is usually used. We live far below our means. Our credo is reduce, reuse, recycle. We also give a lot of money to environmental groups and charities which will help pull people, mainly women, out of poverty to a better life. Education of women, along with sex education and contraception, has been shown to decrease their birth rates, poverty and abortion.

You can support your stance all you want, but the vast majority of people in the world and of the RCC do not support you. The RCC’s stance threatens the stability of the world’s population and many couple’s happiness. Fortunately, couples and populations move on and find their own solutions.
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Okay, why are you attacking me? May I ask what I said to make you so crabby this morning?

What has prompted you to post on a thread titled “miserable w/ NFP” when you yourself have no first hand experience with it? Kind of bizarre, don’t you think??
So do you even realize that at this moment in time that the population of Middle Eastern countries is going to be far above and beyond that of the USA in the next 20-30 years? No, I am not making this up, this is an article from Fox news… I will be searching for it.
Help!! Anyone else ‘save’ the article??

There you have it, we are killing ourselves off, are you happy now? NOw there are even more people to bomb the “whole lot less of us Americans” due to the ‘over population fear’ that mongrals like you put in people’s minds!! And by the way, since when does the RCC’s stance threaten couples happiness?? It sure hasn’t mine or any of the 50+ other couples that I personally know first hand that practice NFP!! 👍

Have a lovely day! And don’t forget to only wipe w/ one square, save some trees will ya!! 😃
 
1234 said:
There is no scientific justification for any of this.

The purported relationship between spermicides and birth defects was debunked in the late 1980’s.

general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/long/1987/828/3

–quoting among other things, the New England Journal of Medicine, the most prestigious journal in the United States.
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Well that’s a relief. I had some trouble with the link that you provided (thank you for that) so I’ll take your word for it. Maybe I’ll try the link again later as I am quite intersted. The birth defects lawsuit involving contraceptive jelly that I read about was in 1985, so what you’re saying makes sense.
1234 said:
Re diaphragm reliability, the failure rate is 6%, that is, pregnancy in 6 women out of 100 women using it* for a year,* and is most reliable in educated women who have been trained in its use. The spontaneous pregnancy rate in the same group would be 85%. Any woman trained in palpating the cervix in NFP would have no trouble in learning how to insert a diaphragm.

ref: aafp.org/afp/20040101/97.html American Family Physician
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6% is with perfect use, right? I doubt that I would have any problem using a diaphragm properly but a 6% failure rate would just be too risky for me, personally.
 
1234 said:
We feel that the control of human population is vital not only to the health of this planet but to its very survival and that of the human race.
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Wouldn’t it, therefore, have been a more principled environmental stand to not have biological children but to adopt?

Then you could have been a counter force against all those rainforest-depleting Catholic families, bumping up those environmental credentials even more! 👍

Michelle, who buys organic, has one car, uses cloth diapers, all that good green stuff, but ruined it all by having three children (so far!)
 
1234 said:
There is no scientific justification for any of this.

The purported relationship between spermicides and birth defects was debunked in the late 1980’s.

general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/long/1987/828/3

–quoting among other things, the New England Journal of Medicine, the most prestigious journal in the United States.

Re diaphragm reliability, the failure rate is 6%, that is, pregnancy in 6 women out of 100 women using it* for a year,* and is most reliable in educated women who have been trained in its use. The spontaneous pregnancy rate in the same group would be 85%. Any woman trained in palpating the cervix in NFP would have no trouble in learning how to insert a diaphragm.

ref: aafp.org/afp/20040101/97.html American Family Physician
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There are side effects to every form of ABC you use, including pregnancy! Even with the condom, I used to get yeast infections every time we used one. So the same thing would probably happen with the diaphram, since you also have to use spermicide. I never got a yeast infection in my life, until I used a condom.

The pills are not only the worst offender when it comes to side effects, but they also pollute our waters, and I KNOW they are not very good for you. Our fish are being destroyed by this.

When you do something surgical, you are destroying a perfectly healthy part of your body, which ends up effecting the rest of your body as a whole. Look up www.tubal.org or don’tfixit.org.

Personally, even if it weren’t sinful to use ABC I wouldn’t have any other options that I could comfortably live with.

It’s amazing to me that people who are so environmentally friendly are the same people harming their own bodies. They want to do so much to keep the environment intact, but destroying the bodies God gave them is ok.🤷
 
1234 said:
You can support your stance all you want, but the vast majority of people in the world and of the RCC do not support you. The RCC’s stance threatens the stability of the world’s population and many couple’s happiness. Fortunately, couples and populations move on and find their own solutions.
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Really? the vast majority of people in the world support contraception? Got something to back this up? Sometimes, I think people in the US think they are the only people in the world and the EVERYONE must agree with them because we are just soooo smart. :rolleyes: Many people around the world actually VALUE children.
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/nov/07113009.html

Found this in a search for something else, thought it fit in this conversation:
blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2007/03/on-christian-environmentalism.html
 
Jennifer_J said:
Really? the vast majority of people in the world support contraception? Got something to back this up? Sometimes, I think people in the US think they are the only people in the world and the EVERYONE must agree with them because we are just soooo smart. :rolleyes: Many people around the world actually VALUE children.
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/nov/07113009.html

Found this in a search for something else, thought it fit in this conversation:
blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2007/03/on-christian-environmentalism.html
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:clapping: :yup: :clapping:
(I will get slammed again for applauding your post:rolleyes: )
 
1234 said:
Why do you assume that those who oppose the RC church’s stance are lazy secular materialists?

Well I never said that. I don’t think they are lazy. I just think their work is wasted. As for “secular materialist”, gee, could it be the view that it’s better to agree with the population than God’s church and to value a big lump of dirt (earth) more than a life?

We oppose the stance because we feel that the RC church is wrong and that it is dangerously wrong.

Yeah, but it’s not up to you. If you don’t want to be Catholic, that’s your choice. Free will and all that.

We feel that the control of human population is vital not only to the health of this planet but to its very survival and that of the human race.

And yet you go on spreading your own hot air around. oh the irony. The human race can only survive if we stop having babies! If we aren’t having children, then what the heck are we saving the stupid planet FOR?
Environmentalists, like me, do a great deal that is difficult and expensive and uncomfortable to create a better world.

But it’s not any better is it? Like I said wasted efforts. And by the way, I don’t know any people who reduce, reuse and recycle more than a large family. With very rare exception everyone who has less children than me used for more resources than I do.
Education of women, along with sex education and contraception, has been shown to decrease their birth rates, poverty and abortion.

**Yeah. I don’t think so. Why is it everyone thinks that if you give some poor 3rd world woman a birth control pill she’s suddenly going to find clean water and food and be able to read english or do algebra? What a waste! Send a bag of rice and some books next time and do some actual good. **
You can support your stance all you want, but the vast majority of people in the world and of the RCC do not support you. The RCC’s stance threatens the stability of the world’s population and many couple’s happiness. Fortunately, couples and populations move on and find their own solutions.
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What blarney. The RCC stance is the same stance that has carried the world through plagues and war and famine and assisted people in seeing the real goal of living is to live ABUNDANTLY and GENEROUSLY for God. Asians, africans, south americans (all regions that are a part of this world, btw) look at large families as a great joy in their old age and valuable asset to their communities.
rick43235 said:
Wow. Now THAT would be one miserable place to live. :eek:
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**Hey! Bite your tongue. Don’t you know God blessed Texas special?😉 Rob happens to be a Texan so I just couldn’t let that slide. Not when I have his framed Native Texan birth certificate hanging over my desk!😃 **
 
Rob_s_Wife said:
**Hey! Bite your tongue. Don’t you know God blessed Texas special?😉 Rob happens to be a Texan so I just couldn’t let that slide. Not when I have his framed Native Texan birth certificate hanging over my desk!😃 **
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I’ve only been to Texas twice in my whole life, and I really liked the place. But…I bet it would lose most of it’s charm if one had to share it with 6.5 billion others.
 
johnnyjoe said:
But I find it ironic that you come to this board confessing your lapse in your faith, and see no connection to that lapse and this practice in your marriage? It seems you see enough of a disconnect to recognize the hypocrisy.
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I clearly see that the lapse in my faith is related to the church’s teaching about contraception. As an adult it was my first hurdle to make a decision on. I have always tried to live my life with integrity. My lapse though is based not on this one subject but many. I feel that there is much hypocrisy in the teaching’s of the church. These stem from its being a political being that has transcended time and geographic boarders. I have spent MUCH time studying these issues and just plain don’t have the faith that is required. You see, the things I disagree with require faith that I just don’t have. You agree with the church and are willing to adjust your behavior and or sacrifice in your lives due to your faith, I do not, and/or am not willing to take the risk.

I do have great respect for those of you who stick to your guns and your faith.

As to the practices in our marriage…we are very happily married, for over 20 years. We unlike most of our age group actually studied NFP before we were married and had sex. It was quite informative and taught us much about the womans body & fertility cycle. I would actually recommend the classes without religious overtones to my children or freinds. We have always been open to children. We have a great family that we love dearly. Given the right circumstance we would also be open to more (adoption).

I also make it a priority within my sphere of influence with young people to talk with them about responsible behavior and in one case with a young lady who was un-wed and pregnant at work to take her under my wing as a friend, a friend who was there the day the baby was born!

Others in this thread have posted about statistics, the facts are available in many studies:
95% of those who say they are Catholics use ABC
75-85% say its always ok
50% of marriages end in divorce
under 3% of those who use NFP end in divorce

My point is that with about 4% of Catholics using NFP the small resulting divorce rate among those folks is most likely related to the fact that they are very religious and their faith abhors divorce. They stay married, and given that conviction probably started on the right foot in the beginning.

Recent studies have reported a much lower than the average 50% divorce rate in college graduates. Maybe everyone should just go to college.

I do think that fact that contraception has changed womens roles in society has had a major impact on divorce rates. Women have opportunity’s and power that they didn’t have 40 years ago. The role of women in society has changed. It is unlikely that there is any way to put the contraception genii back in the bottle! It is a major change that will define our age.

In my mind the church can choose to go the way of the Amish (who I also admire and do not slight in this comparison) or it can accept that it is wrong about this and change to reflect the norm of society. It will be interesting to watch what happens.

Peace!
 
According to 1234’s profile, 1234 is a Unitarian Universalist, so it’s unlikely that the Catholic Church would consider 1234 to be Christian (although there are variances in individual beliefs.)

What is it about this thread that’s attracting all the non-Catholics, anyway? I thought the Family Life forum was for Catholics to discuss family and relationship issues with other Catholics. Such discussions would be meaningless to a non-Catholic, because non-Catholics are not aiming to implement Catholic teaching in their lives.

It’s not a surprise that most non-Catholics don’t feel compelled to practice NFP…that goes without saying…so I guess I don’t understand the point of this thread…
mamacita said:
1234,

I just wanted to ask you, are you Christian?

Thanks! 🙂
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1234 said:
THAT is what raising a family is like with access to ‘artificial’ contraception and sterilization.
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I have read all the posts, and haven’t read anything that mentions that this is not always what you get when you try to “plan” your family. That all sounds real nice and neat, but I know plenty of people that had that same schedule only that is not the way it worked out for them. Some were not able to have children after years of ABC. Some had surprise pregnancies anyway. Just because your body behaved just like you planned doesn’t mean you can promise that to the world.
 
Jennifer_J said:
Really? the vast majority of people in the world support contraception? Got something to back this up? Sometimes, I think people in the US think they are the only people in the world and the EVERYONE must agree with them because we are just soooo smart. :rolleyes: Many people around the world actually VALUE children.
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/nov/07113009.html

Found this in a search for something else, thought it fit in this conversation:
blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2007/03/on-christian-environmentalism.html
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Best line of the debate: “Sabe nada, estupida Americana!”👍
 
kage_ar said:
… The population of the world, 6.5 billion folks, could all be moved to the State of Texas and each person would have room to build a house.
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Well, from what I see here, the developers are working on that right now!:rolleyes:
 
rick43235 said:
Not meaning to add to the increasing level of hostility in this thread, but I find myself doubting your 3% statistic. Do you have a source your could refer me to?

Thanks.
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I was in a presentation for the Creighton Method of family planning two months ago. I saw many statistics and charts, and scribbled down the information as fast as I could. The information was a legitimate source, but my notes are handwritten. I did not follow through by contacting the organization. I also heard something like this in my protestant church before I converted.
 
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