Missing the essential point (about our Nations's weaknesses)

[Jay74]

I didn’t put this under the Katrina subforum, since it is more about the weaknesses revealed by Katrina than about Katrina itself.

Scary thoughts.

Blessings

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Missing the essential point
By Hal Lindsey​

Posted: September 8, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

The blame games have begun. The Democrats are blaming George Bush and the Republicans for the Hurricane Katrina catastrophe. The New Orleans mayor is blaming the federal government for not acting quickly and adequately enough. The Louisiana governor is also blaming President Bush for insufficient action before the disaster. The Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security are both seeking to dodge blame by pleading that “Katrina was beyond anything their departments could have anticipated.”

All of this quibbling about “who’s to blame” misses the essential point.

The essential point is this: If all of our politicians and agencies could not properly prepare to handle a catastrophe like Hurricane Katrina – when we had at least 48 hours prior warning – how can we possibly handle multiple, simultaneous nuclear strikes by Muslim terrorists on our cities?

To view the entire article, visit worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46210

 

[KathleenElsie]

Jay74:

I didn’t put this under the Katrina subforum, since it is more about the weaknesses revealed by Katrina than about Katrina itself.

Scary thoughts.

Blessings

---

Missing the essential point
By Hal Lindsey​

Posted: September 8, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

All of this quibbling about “who’s to blame” misses the essential point.

The essential point is this: If all of our politicians and agencies could not properly prepare to handle a catastrophe like Hurricane Katrina – when we had at least 48 hours prior warning – how can we possibly handle multiple, simultaneous nuclear strikes by Muslim terrorists on our cities?

To view the entire article, visit worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46210

This commentary just brings home thoughts that many of us have.

The point made here is one that many of us are thinking about. Our (USA) ability to respond with so many governments having responsibility for small IMPORTANT sections of emergency management scares me. The right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. In many cases it seems that they do not want the others to know what they are or are not doing.

Lets work together now to get it right.

 

[vern_humphrey]

KathleenElsie:

This commentary just brings home thoughts that many of us have.

The point made here is one that many of us are thinking about. Our (USA) ability to respond with so many governments having responsibility for small IMPORTANT sections of emergency management scares me. The right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. In many cases it seems that they do not want the others to know what they are or are not doing.

Lets work together now to get it right.

What happened in New Orleans is a worst-case scenario. Without taking sides, we can clearly see that local and state government failed – when they had the resources immediately to hand to both evacuate the city and to reinforce the levees, if they had only used those resources.

I think it would be a mistake to change our system of government because of this – although many have suggested it. The “Three-Thousand Mile Screwdriver” (direct government from Washington) doesn’t work and it isn’t something we should be pushing.

What is required is a thorough review of disaster plans – the New Orleans plan was badly flawed (which is rather by the way – they didn’t follow it.) Plans should be realistic and with enough detail to permit them to be executed. They should be tested in simulation. And they should have specific reporting requirments – so the State and Federal governments can tell if the locals are not following the plan.

We also need a “push” system for disaster response at the Federal level – there should be a package of personnel and resources keyed to each plan, and that package should be moved into position automatically – whether the local or state government calls for it or not.

We also need a disaster registry system – many of the evacuees are still unidentified. Families have been split apart, children are missing, and it is taking too long to find where they are.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

KathleenElsie:

The point made here is one that many of us are thinking about. Our (USA) ability to respond with so many governments having responsibility for small IMPORTANT sections of emergency management scares me. The right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. In many cases it seems that they do not want the others to know what they are or are not doing.

Lets work together now to get it right.

I think we need to build in redundancy of effort… this blame game ignores the fact that no one person or agency should be given the sole responsibility of preventing or coping with huge disasters. The more redundancy of responsibility, the more avenues of communication set up between responsible parties, the better.

First and foremost, though, Americans need to be reminded of our responsibility to prepare to see for ourselves and our immediate neighbors in the short term aftermath of a disaster. No huge outside agency is going to be able to find all the sick elderly people or be able to orient themselves to a particular neighborhood as well as the people who actually live in that neighborhood. We should be asking ourselves not only, “Am I ready for a disaster in which government can’t help me?” but also “How ready are my neighbors? What are their needs going to be? Will they be a position to help me and my family? What kind of disaster is most likely to happen in our neighborhood, and in what ways can we do better together than we could alone?” If you plan it right, you could even have neighbors who are prepared to take care of each other’s children and homes on short notice, freeing some in the neighborhood to lend needed aid to the local community outside the immediate neighborhood. It is a rather exciting possibility.

I would like to see a campaign to get this kind of dialogue going, something along the lines of the nuclear attack preparedness efforts that I hear they tried in the '50s. The payoff would be pennies on the dollar, and years life on the minute… not to mention the side benefit of encouraging communities in which people know and are willing to support their neighbors.

 

[vern_humphrey]

BLB_Oregon:

I think we need to build in redundancy of effort… this blame game ignores the fact that no one person or agency should be given the sole responsibility of preventing or coping with huge disasters. The more redundancy of responsibility, the more avenues of communication set up between responsible parties, the better.

First and foremost, though, Americans need to be reminded of our responsibility to prepare to see for ourselves and our immediate neighbors in the short term aftermath of a disaster. No huge outside agency is going to be able to find all the sick elderly people or be able to orient themselves to a particular neighborhood as well as the people who actually live in that neighborhood. We should be asking ourselves not only, “Am I ready for a disaster in which government can’t help me?” but also “How ready are my neighbors? What are their needs going to be? Will they be a position to help me and my family? What kind of disaster is most likely to happen in our neighborhood, and in what ways can we do better together than we could alone?” If you plan it right, you could even have neighbors who are prepared to take care of each other’s children and homes on short notice, freeing some in the neighborhood to lend needed aid to the local community outside the immediate neighborhood. It is a rather exciting possibility.

I would like to see a campaign to get this kind of dialogue going, something along the lines of the nuclear attack preparedness efforts that I hear they tried in the '50s. The payoff would be pennies on the dollar, and years life on the minute… not to mention the side benefit of encouraging communities in which people know and are willing to support their neighbors.

Living in the Ozarks as I do, more than five miles from a paved road, I ask that question all the time.

We are subject to ice storms here – which can render unpaved roads impassible (my wife and have seen our roads undriveable and covered by a thick sheet of ice for a week at a time), and which can take out power over a wide area. (We have gone for a week without power.)

Our approach to the problem started with building our home – we opted for a full and finished basement, with a wood-burning stove. Being surrounded by earth, the basement stays at 55 to 57 degrees year round, so it isn’t hard to heat. In the “machine room” (a small room where the HVAC, water, electricity, phone lines, etc come in), we keep a shelving unit with canned goods, a Coleman Lantern, a Coleman camp stove, candles, flashlights, batteries, oil lamps and oil, and other supplies.

We keep at least 5 gallons of gasoline in a shed, along with a chainsaw and other tools (last ice storm, I had to cut 16 downed trees to reach the county road.) We also have a small (1.5KW) generator (not to power the house, but for the freezer and refrigerator, to keep frozen food from thawing.)

We also have chains for our vehicles (all 4-wheel drive), a hand-cranked radio, and other survival gear, based on past experience.

And yes, we have the means of defending ourselves, if necesssary.

 

[Jay74]

vern humphrey:

What happened in New Orleans is a worst-case scenario.

I agree that it is a worst case scenario. However, a nuclear attack or an ElectroMagnetic Pulse (EMP) attack would result in comparable or worse devastation. I’m not trying to blame the local, state, or federal government. I’m merely illustrating that we are not prepared to deal with a massive terrorist attack or natural disaster, and should learn from this experience.

I recently broke into a client’s computer system–without going into much detail, lets just say that any kid with a computer could have done it with even moderate knowledge because of poor configurations. The boss wanted heads to roll, and I simply told him “what’s done is done. You can’t change the past, but now you know and you can fix the security structure. Just be thankful it was an consultant and not a hacker.”

Same concept. As bad as Katrina was, and not to minimize the loss and suffering of thousands, let’s be thankful that we found out of our ill-preparedness during this hurricane and not when several nuclear bombs detonated simultaneously in several key locations, or when an EMP attack occured.

Prayers for the victims. And may God help us work together to prepare ourselves (after all, a nuclear bomb won’t discriminate between republicans and democrats, or any one else).

 

[vern_humphrey]

Jay74:

I agree that it is a worst case scenario. However, a nuclear attack or an ElectroMagnetic Pulse (EMP) attack would result in comparable or worse devastation. I’m not trying to blame the local, state, or federal government. I’m merely illustrating that we are not prepared to deal with a massive terrorist attack or natural disaster, and should learn from this experience.

I agree. The real lesson is that major cities may well have both inadequate disaster plans and inadequate leadership.

Jay74:

I recently broke into a client’s computer system–without going into much detail, lets just say that any kid with a computer could have done it with even moderate knowledge because of poor configurations. The boss wanted heads to roll, and I simply told him “what’s done is done. You can’t change the past, but now you know and you can fix the security structure. Just be thankful it was an consultant and not a hacker.”’/quote]

And that’s the way to look at it. We need to study this disaster and apply what we learn across the board.

Jay74:

Same concept. As bad as Katrina was, and not to minimize the loss and suffering of thousands, let’s be thankful that we found out of our ill-preparedness during this hurricane and not when several nuclear bombs detonated simultaneously in several key locations, or when an EMP

attack occured.

Absolutely.

Jay74:

Prayers for the victims. And may God help us work together to prepare ourselves (after all, a nuclear bomb won’t discriminate between republicans and democrats, or any one else).

You’ve got that right. We need to work together, not use this as an opportunity to score political points off the other side.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

Our approach to the problem started with building our home – we opted for a full and finished basement, with a wood-burning stove. Being surrounded by earth, the basement stays at 55 to 57 degrees year round, so it isn’t hard to heat. In the “machine room” (a small room where the HVAC, water, electricity, phone lines, etc come in), we keep a shelving unit with canned goods, a Coleman Lantern, a Coleman camp stove, candles, flashlights, batteries, oil lamps and oil, and other supplies.

We keep at least 5 gallons of gasoline in a shed, along with a chainsaw and other tools (last ice storm, I had to cut 16 downed trees to reach the county road.) We also have a small (1.5KW) generator (not to power the house, but for the freezer and refrigerator, to keep frozen food from thawing.)

We also have chains for our vehicles (all 4-wheel drive), a hand-cranked radio, and other survival gear, based on past experience.

Very good preparations, indeed. It surprises me a bit as I thought that you survivalists lived primarily in the Northwest.

And yes, we have the means of defending ourselves, if necesssary.

Who are your neighbors that you need to defend yourself against them? It seems to me that there’s not much advantage to living “out in the woods” if you have to make your home a fortress against those around you. Of course, after a number of years, you know what sort of folks inhabit the area, but still…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

Very good preparations, indeed. It surprises me a bit as I thought that you survivalists lived primarily in the Northwest.

I’m not a survivialist – I just live on a farm in the deep Ozarks, and I prepare to deal with situations like ice storms. Not much different from laying in hay for the horses, or having smoke alarms and a fire extinguisher – or having insurance.
Arba Sicula:

Who are your neighbors that you need to defend yourself against them? It seems to me that there’s not much advantage to living “out in the woods” if you have to make your home a fortress against those around you. Of course, after a number of years, you know what sort of folks inhabit the area, but still…

Who killed the people in the Superdome and left their bodies in the freezers?

Who can predict what someone you never met would do if he arrived near you and decided you had something he needed?

People should be prepared to defend themselves – if you’re not prepared, what right do you have to ask someone else to risk their lives to do it for you?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

I’m not a survivialist – I just live on a farm in the deep Ozarks, and I prepare to deal with situations like ice storms. Not much different from laying in hay for the horses, or having smoke alarms and a fire extinguisher – or having insurance.

It seems as though you’ve gone a lot further than having smoke alarms.

Who can predict what someone you never met would do if he arrived near you and decided you had something he needed?

You seem like an awfully suspicious man, Mr. Humphrey. Would a stranger who drove by your property and took water from your stream to fill a leaking radiator be in your gunsights all the while? I shudder.

People should be prepared to defend themselves

I’ll not even ask about any cosmoline coated heavy weapons you may have crated down in your cellar.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

It seems as though you’ve gone a lot further than having smoke alarms.

That’s because we have more potential problems than just fire. What would you do if you found a dozen or more trees down across the access road to your home, no electricity, and a sheet of ice covering everything?
Arba Sicula:

You seem like an awfully suspicious man, Mr. Humphrey. Would a stranger who drove by your property and took water from your stream to fill a leaking radiator be in your gunsights all the while? I shudder.

That is a personal and insulting remark. I expect an apology.
Arba Sicula:

I’ll not even ask about any cosmoline coated heavy weapons you may have crated down in your cellar.

Another personal insult – hardly in keeping with the Catholic nature of this forum.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

That is a personal and insulting remark. I expect an apology.

I’m sorry you came to that conclusion. I wasn’t insulting you, but responding to a consequence of what you said: “Who can predict what someone you never met would do if he arrived near you and decided you had something he needed?” I should have included a smiley or a grin to make my intent clear.

Another personal insult – hardly in keeping with the Catholic nature of this forum.

1. Please note the smiley. You appear to be quite touchy, Mr. Humphrey. I’m sorry that I didn’t realize that and do apologize sincerely for my misjudgment. And again, it was a bit of, looks like failed humor, responding to “People should be prepared to defend themselves.” No offense was meant, sorry it was taken.

We New Yorkers are used to a different kind of give-and-take and humor than country folk. Again, sorry.

Probably best to leave out attempts at humor. I’m no Seinfeld and, besides, humor is hard to interpret on a words-only forum where one doesn’t know the readers well enough to judge reactions as would be had in face-to-face discussions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

I’m sorry you came to that conclusion. I wasn’t insulting you, but responding to a consequence of what you said: “Who can predict what someone you never met would do if he arrived near you and decided you had something he needed?” I should have included a smiley or a grin to make my intent clear.

It would be best if we all refrained from making personal comments.
Arba Sicula:

1. Please note the smiley. You appear to be quite touchy, Mr. Humphrey. I’m sorry that I didn’t realize that and do apologize sincerely for my misjudgment. And again, it was a bit of, looks like failed humor, responding to “People should be prepared to defend themselves.” No offense was meant, sorry it was taken.

We New Yorkers are used to a different kind of give-and-take and humor than country folk. Again, sorry.

Thank you.

 

[cainem]

apart from the obvious failures, the essential point for me is why did the place descend into such a barbaric place reports of rape gangs and pop shots at the rescuers?
would these scenes be repeated if god forbid some terror cell were to set off dirty bombs in three major cities, or is the sense of community spirit greater than this part of the us, i do not mean to be insulting so don’t take this the wrong way

 

[Arba_Sicula]

cainem:

apart from the obvious failures, the essential point for me is why did the place descend into such a barbaric place reports of rape gangs and pop shots at the rescuers?

Keep in mind that the criminals were a very small part of the population. It’s not as if the entire population of NO ran wild. And, it’s a city known for its free ways and where one finds more criminals. One might note that such activities were not widespread over the entire devastated areas of both states.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

Keep in mind that the criminals were a very small part of the population. It’s not as if the entire population of NO ran wild. And, it’s a city known for its free ways and where one finds more criminals. One might note that such activities were not widespread over the entire devastated areas of both states.

The fact that the criminals were relatively few in number means nothing to those they victimized. Statistics fail when applied to individual cases.

 

[vern_humphrey]

cainem:

apart from the obvious failures, the essential point for me is why did the place descend into such a barbaric place reports of rape gangs and pop shots at the rescuers?
would these scenes be repeated if god forbid some terror cell were to set off dirty bombs in three major cities, or is the sense of community spirit greater than this part of the us, i do not mean to be insulting so don’t take this the wrong way

The answer to the question is simple – the looting started and was allowed to continue.

It is all well and good to say when people are hungry and thirsty they will take what they need, but we must look beyond that simplistic position and see what really happened:

1. The strong took. The weak went without. (Did you see any videos of elderly people in walkers or pregnant women among the looters?)
2. The failure of government to maintain law and order encouraged predators to test the limits.
3. Finding no limits, the violent and lawless elements wound up doing whatever they wanted.

The lesson is that food and water supplies should have been secured, and issued to people – no one should have been allowed to hog supplies, or to take what they did not need. Criminals should have been apprehended at the first signs of lawlessness. Security should have been established at the Super Dome and all other evacuation points.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

The fact that the criminals were relatively few in number means nothing to those they victimized.

Quite right, but cainem’s question was, “why did the place descend into such a barbaric place?”

The place didn’t descend into barbarism. Most of the population, including the poor, did not participate in looting, shooting, and rape. A small number of criminals took advantage of the opportunity. Though, as you correctly noted, it’s no comfort if you were one of those whose home was looted, overall the population of the city did not run wild.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

Quite right, but cainem’s question was, “why did the place descend into such a barbaric place?”

The place didn’t descend into barbarism. Most of the population, including the poor, did not participate in looting, shooting, and rape. A small number of criminals took advantage of the opportunity. Though, as you correctly noted, it’s no comfort if you were one of those whose home was looted, overall the population of the city did not run wild.

Nobody said the whole population ran wild. But for a while, it was the wolves and the prey – and that’s descent into barbarism.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

Nobody said the whole population ran wild. But for a while, it was the wolves and the prey – and that’s descent into barbarism.

Better to separate the wolves from the prey. The depredations by the Vikings along the European coast was certainly a case of wolves and prey, but not a descent into barbarism - because both sides did not do so. Only the Vikings were the barbarians. Similarly, the population of NO didn’t descend into barbarism though the criminals certainly did.