Missouri House moves to further restrict abortion

[robertmidwest]

Missouri House moves to further restrict abortion

 

[myhathaswords]

Every time I read something like this I am so glad that Hillary Clinton did not get the Supreme Court picks. She very clearly stated during her campaign and at least one debate that state regulations were a threat to abortion and she would pick justices that would limit that threat.

It was interesting to read the following. People don’t like to think about it but it happens.

Other provisions in the Missouri bill include a ban on abortions based on race, sex or an indication of Down Syndrome.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Will bet you a ham sandwich these proposed laws have loopholes.

 

[myhathaswords]

I’m no longer the idealist I once was. I’ll take laws with loopholes over no laws at all. Main party candidates over third party. Every little inch counts.

I’m not knocking idealists : ) I think they’re very important. They help us remember the true goal. It’s important to be reminded. We might forget while caught up in the fray.

 

[TheLittleLady]

On the other hand, I have seen that decades of loopholes, that incrementalism, does not work. They are only putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[robertmidwest]

Will bet you a ham sandwich these proposed laws have loopholes.

The whole point of the law is be a challenge to Roe. It will need loopholes to be constitutional.

 

[TheLittleLady]

It will need loopholes to be constitutional.

Then it is a paper tiger. A toothless law.

 

[MidwestGuy]

Then it is a paper tiger. A toothless law.

Baby steps - I will take anything that moves in the direction of banning abortion. After all, wasn’t it baby steps that got us to this situation in the first place?

 

[TheLittleLady]

Almost half a century of baby steps have not moved us closer, but, further.

 

[MidwestGuy]

Almost half a century of baby steps have not moved us closer, but, further.

That was my point, except I was referring to baby steps by the Abortion rights legislators that got us where we are today. We are at a point now that some of them are trying to pass bills that include infanticide. It has definitely moved us away from pro life.

 

[robertmidwest]

Then it is a paper tiger. A toothless law.

Not if it makes it to SCOTUS and is upheld.

 

[Victoria33]

That was my point, except I was referring to baby steps by the Abortion rights legislators that got us where we are today. We are at a point now that some of them are trying to pass bills that include infanticide. It has definitely moved us away from pro life.

Absolutely, we have some states that are moving towards what you describe. The whole USA potentially could have those kinds of laws with infanticide. Some people may not realize this.

Oh and by the way, Missouri, Mississippi, I think there are about 5 states with one clinic. You have ultrasound laws. So, yes, there has been progress made.

The danger are some of these other laws in the opposite direction.

 

[Victoria33]

On the other hand, I have seen that decades of loopholes, that incrementalism, does not work. They are only putting lipstick on a pig.

Incrementalism is what these bills on potential partial birth abortions, late term abortions and even infanticide are. Yes, incrementalism is working to the other extreme.

It would be nice to see that other extreme criticized rather than telling us, none of this works.

People go to pro-life marches, peacefully pray outside clinics, even say pro-life rosaries. I certainly have not heard others in the movement say such things, they are generally happy when little victories come.

I really think there are those in the pro-life movement and I doubt if many of them, if any, would say such things. I think the word is “counter-intuitive”.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting different results. For some reason there is a contingent of the pro-life crowd who thinks that if they keep doing the same thing over again, well, insanity.

Late term abortion has been legal since the early 70’s, right up through the 40th week. To believe this is something that just happened in the past few weeks is to disregard history. Some states have given lip service to limiting late term abortions, through laws with exemption clauses that can be negotiated. Life of the mother? well, will having this baby make you sad? Sadness leads to depression which can lead to suicide, so, we can use the “Life of the mother” exemption. Will your baby be born funny looking, like a dwarf or with a cleft palate? That is a gross genetic malformation so we can use that exemption.

Recently some states have relaxed or removed their limits on very late term abortion. No state has legalized infanticide, this is language meant to keep our eyes distracted. Don’t buy in.

 

[robertmidwest]

Oh and by the way, Missouri, Mississippi, I think there are about 5 states with one clinic.

That is technically true about Missouri. There are clinics just across the border though. Here in KC, PP has a large clinic just a couple blocks across state line. So one of the largest metro areas of Missouri is “serviced” by an out of state organization. There is another private practitioner on a few block west of PP that performs abortions too.

 

[Victoria33]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting different results. For some reason there is a contingent of the pro-life crowd who thinks that if they keep doing the same thing over again, well, insanity.

Late term abortion has been legal since the early 70’s, right up through the 40th week. To believe this is something that just happened in the past few weeks is to disregard history. Some states have given lip service to limiting late term abortions, through laws with exemption clauses that can be negotiated. Life of the mother? well, will having this baby make you sad? Sadness leads to depression which can lead to suicide, so, we can use the “Life of the mother” exemption. Will your baby be born funny looking, like a dwarf or with a cleft palate? That is a gross genetic malformation so we can use that exemption.

Recently some states have relaxed or removed their limits on very late term abortion. No state has legalized infanticide, this is language meant to keep our eyes distracted. Don’t buy in.

But there are issues, the Virginia governor was clearly talking about something that smacks of infanticide. Now, if one favors the Democrats over the Republicans, such might be said, that’s the argument of the Democrats, funded by Planned Parenthood donations, so no, I don’t buy that.

You seem to try and rely on some legalese, talking of clauses.

France has no abortions as a rule after 12 weeks, our laws are very lenient in comparison.

Many clinics have closed, some planned parenthood clinics have closed. These are victories. States defund planned parenthood.

If one is always relying on clauses as a persuasion as to why something doesn’t work, I don’t think I will find that very persuasive.

Do nothing? Planned Parenthood and the Democratic party at times, don’t want there to even be crisis centers. How narrow-minded can that be? And it’s been shown, Planned Parenthood often counsels for abortion rather than a pregnant woman choosing life.

Again, these points are rather bewildering.

 

[Victoria33]

That is technically true about Missouri. There are clinics just across the border though. Here in KC, PP has a large clinic just a couple blocks across state line. So one of the largest metro areas of Missouri is “serviced” by an out of state organization. There is another private practitioner on a few block west of PP that performs abortions too.

I brought up this exact point, that even if a state has one clinic, there is a chance that there are private practitioners involved. I was trying to ask a more knowledgeable pro-life proponent what the significance of these private practitioners were.

 

[TheLittleLady]

You seem to try and rely on some legalese, talking of clauses.

Because laws are made up of legalese. I advise no one to support a bill or law until they have read all of the text, all of the fine print, for themselves. Don’t rely on any one else’s interpretation.

Be aware of the amendments that are hung on a law. Sometimes a Congressperson votes “no” not because of the law but because of the additives that have been attached.

If more people read laws it would change the nature of our laws.

 

[Victoria33]

Concerned Women of America has called President Trump the most pro-life president ever, I think they know something.

The Susan B. Anthony list has praised Trump’s efforts, perhaps even the Knights of Columbus have and certainly some priests have.

But we know, some points to some interview 20 years ago about what Trump said on abortion.

Respectfully, I’m going to go with what people like the Susan B. Anthony list and Concerned Women of America say. I"m sure there are experts on both sides but it is hard to fathom what some people are saying and its significance if they are truly pro-life.

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

That is simply not true. States with large conservative majorities, such as most states in the southeast, have passed these incremental laws to chip away at Roe and their abortion clinics and abortion rates have dropped. For example, when looking at 3 types of incremental pro-life laws:

State rescricted funding for abortion:

Overall, Cook et al. concluded that 37 percent of the women who would have otherwise had an abortion carried their child to term when funding was not available.

Overall, the authors of the Guttmacher literature review acknowledge that the best research indicates that Medicaid funding restrictions reduce the incidence of abortion. In the discussion which follows the literature review they state that “the best studies…used detailed data from individual states and compared the ratio of abortions to births both before and after the Medicaid restrictions took effect. These found that 18-37 percent of pregnancies that would have ended in Medicaid funded abortions were carried to term when funding was no longer available.”

Parental Notification:

The findings of these studies are very similar. After the passage of a parental involvement law, the research shows there is a statistically significant reduction in the in-state minor abortion rate ranging from 13 percent (Henshaw 1995) to 42 percent (Cartoof and Klerman 1986). Most studies found a decline in the in-state minors’ abortion rate ranging from 15 to 20 percent (Colman, Joyce, and Kaestner 2008; Ellertson 1997; Haas-Wilson 1996; Joyce, Kaestner, and Colman 2006; Levine 2003; New 2011; Ohsfeldt and Gohman 1994; Tomal 1999).

Informed Consent:

This would translate to a decline in the abortion rate of approximately 3.7 percent to 5.6 percent. New’s 2014 study analyzed specific types of informed consent laws. He found that Planned Parenthood v. Casey -style informed consent laws, which require women to view color photos of fetal development prior to the abortion reduce abortion rates anywhere from two percent to seven percent. Additionally, informed consent laws that require two separate visits to the abortion facility reduce abortion rates anywhere from seven percent to 12 percent.

How the Legal Status of Abortion Impacts Abortion Rates - Lozier Institute

On the flip-side, states that don’t bother with incrimental pro-life laws, states where people say abortion should be legal so it’s safe, states where people believe abortion should be widely available, states like New York, Vermont, Connecticut, and California- these states are stumbling over themselves to codify unrestricted abortion into states law, to decriminalize any killing of an unborn child.

I will take the documented reductions from incremental pro life laws in my state over the results evident in states where pro-life restrictions are scorned or deemed unnecessary.