Mister De says "Muslims worship who they believe is God, but is none other than the Devil himself."

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My position is a simple one. Muhammad was either insane, lying, was tricked by the Devil, or was the Devil himself. I tend to lean towards option three.

Muslims believe the Qur’an is the word of God. As a Catholic, I would never believe such a thing. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. If the Quran is not God‘s word, who’s word is it then?

Muslims worship the “god” who inspired the Qur’an. If God (the one true God of the Bible) did not inspire the Qur’an, then who are Muslims truly worshiping? Certainly not the God who inspired the Bible. The Qur’an strongly denies Christ, rejects the Trinity, orders the murder of pagans, and encourages violence against Jews/Christians. Sounds like things Satan would order, not God.

Do any Christians actually believe the Angel Gabriel visited Muhammad for 20 years, spoke to him, and relayed the message of “god”? Now, assuming Muhammad wasn’t insane or lying, and assuming Muhammad himself wasn’t Satan, then who was the angel really? I severely doubt it was Gabriel. The angel visiting Muhammad, if there even was an angel, could only have been Satan.

I know Muslims believe they are following the Creator, the one true God, but they are following Satan’s word, not God’s.

“And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.”
– 2 Corinthians 11:14

Muhammad was duped.
 
First of all, before you go saying this or that about the prophet of another religion, please research the history of the prophet and read the holy book of the religion. There’s no law against doing this, and it will actually help you to better understand the religion.

Also, saying that Muslims worship the devil - yes, you are saying this - is contrary to what the Church teaches. The Church says, in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that Muslims worship the only living God.
 
In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
  • Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium, 16
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
  • Catechism of the Catholic Church, 841
 
Did Gabriel visit Muhammad or didn’t he?

Either he did - Which would mean the bible is wrong, the Qu’ran is right, Christianity is false and Muhammad was telling the truth.

Or he didn’t - Which would mean Muhammad was lying, was delusional, or was tricked by an evil fallen angel or demon (I.e. Satan).
 
Mister_De said:
Did Gabriel visit Muhammad or didn’t he?

Either he did - Which would mean the bible is wrong, the Qu’ran is right, Christianity is false and Muhammad was telling the truth.

Or he didn’t - Which would mean Muhammad was lying, was delusional, or was tricked by an evil fallen angel or demon (I.e. Satan).
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Or Muhammah could have been visited by a holy angel but he interpreted the message in his own way, added to the message or took away from it, changed the message, etc. Human beings do have the power to do this. It’s why I’m thankful we have Holy Mother Church, who is infallble.
 
dolphinlove said:
Jesus himself said, there are no other prophets after John the baptist and also the devil can appear as an angel of light.
The ‘angel’ Mohammed saw could possibly be, well, you know who…
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hm, here I thought Jesus, who came after John, wasPriest, Prophet, and King:blush:
 
The fact of the matter is, we don’t know whether Mohammmed was visited by an angel or not, good or bad, or what have you. Muslims believe he was visited Gabriel. The Church is silent on the matter, and for good reason: we ought to not judge lest we be judged, we ought to respect the Muslims and their beliefs and practices, even if we may not agree with them, and we ought to hold dialogue with them on common grounds, for the good of mankind.

Now, when Islam came into the world, the Christians at the time considered it be the religion of the antichrist, because Muslims disbelieved in the Incarnation and the Trinity (In the letter of St. John, the writer tells us that all those who do not acknowledge the triune God and Jesus come in the flesh are antichrists). Now, dose this mean we have to call Muslims antichrists, or treat them in wrongful ways? No. Even if we consider Muslims to be our enemies, we still must treat them well, pray for them, not utter an insult against them - we have to imitate our Lord, Jesus Christ. Over the years, though, guided by the Holy Spirit, the Church has come to understand that the Muslims are not worshippers of the antichrist; they acknowledge the same God, they honor Jesus as a Prophet and Messiah and they love his Mother Mary, they do works of prayer, fasting, and alms, they believe in the last things (resurrection, last judgment, heaven, and hell), and they seek, with us, the greater good of mankind. So rather than persecuting them, judging them, or offending them, we ought to respect them and hold dialogue with them. And yes, pray for them; prayer is always good.
 
wisdomseeker said:
we need to be careful about this. remember what Jesus said to the pharisees when they said that Jesus was with the devil. Jesus said: "any sin would be forgiven, but sin against the HS would not. therefore we must watch when saying someone is with the devil.
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You’re absolutely right, but I don’t remember hearing anyone claim that Muslims are beyond forgiveness, and if they do, they’re mistaken (“Forgive them Father, they know not what they do”). But I think the Quran and Muslim tradition and behavior for the past 1400 years is a pretty good basis on which to make such claims. Don’t you think that denying the very existence of the Holy Spirit while claiming to believe in God is getting pretty close to that most serious sin? Do you think such a thing is beyond the evil of a demon? Because if something really did contact Mohammad, it told him things that an angel of God NEVER would have told someone.
Steven_John said:
I think I follow your post, because the Quran promotes positive virtues such as peace, forgiveness, temperance, etc you know it cant be of the Devil.
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It’s important to remember that the Quran is very specific that such virtues are only to be displayed to fellow Muslims, and provides a very different set of “virtues” for dealing with infidels.
 
Nickkname said:
we ought to not judge lest we be judged
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This is one of my big religious pet peevs. This does not mean that we should not judge others. It means that you should be cautious of the standards by which you judge others, because you will be judged by those same standards. Why do so many people misunderstand this? Is it really that hard? Jesus also said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Does this mean we shouldn’t punish people for crimes?
 
cyberjacques said:
Jesus also said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Does this mean we shouldn’t punish people for crimes?
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No, it means Mary gets the first throw.

I’m kidding, I’m kidding!

In all seriousness, yes, I know what Jesus meant by the words “judge not lest you be judged”. If he was speaking literally, we wouldn’t have the Supreme Court, or any courts for that matter. But he meant exactly how you put it: the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. And that’s exactly what I meant. I don’t think I explained myself very well, though. Sorry about that. And sorry if you’re offended by the joke.
 
Nickkname said:
No, it means Mary gets the first throw.

I’m kidding, I’m kidding!

In all seriousness, yes, I know what Jesus meant by the words “judge not lest you be judged”. If he was speaking literally, we wouldn’t have the Supreme Court, or any courts for that matter. But he meant exactly how you put it: the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. And that’s exactly what I meant. I don’t think I explained myself very well, though. Sorry about that. And sorry if you’re offended by the joke.
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I’m glad you understand, it just annoys me when people use it like that, because there are many people who really do interpret it as meaning we shouldn’t judge others, which makes Christianity look foolish. But thank you for the clarification. And no, the joke doesn’t offend me. I’m sure God appreciates a good sense of humor, so we should too. To quote Willy Wonka, a little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men. 😛
 
Nickkname said:
Or Muhammah could have been visited by a holy angel but he interpreted the message in his own way, added to the message or took away from it, changed the message, etc. Human beings do have the power to do this. It’s why I’m thankful we have Holy Mother Church, who is infallble.
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Ok, I’ll pretend for a couple minutes that the angel really was Gabriel. Why then was Gabriel even contacting Muhammad in the first place? Was Christianity false? Was Jesus not the Messiah? What message could Gabriel possibly of had for Muhammad?
 
Mister_De said:
Ok, I’ll pretend for a couple minutes that the angel really was Gabriel. Why then was Gabriel even contacting Muhammad in the first place? Was Christianity false? Was Jesus not the Messiah? What message could Gabriel possibly of had for Muhammad?
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That’s a very good point. It’s unlikely to convince Muslims or unbelievers, but it should serve as a good reminder to Christians.
 
Mister_De said:
Ok, I’ll pretend for a couple minutes that the angel really was Gabriel. Why then was Gabriel even contacting Muhammad in the first place? Was Christianity false? Was Jesus not the Messiah? What message could Gabriel possibly of had for Muhammad?
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Look, the point is, Muslims worship God, not Satan. That’s the Church’s teaching. You can’t call yourself a Catholic and not believe what the Church teaches.

*In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
  • Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium, 16*
And before you say, “Oh, but it’s not Catholic dogma,” re-read the title of the constitution: Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.
 
You still haven’t answered my question though. Here’s another one.

This is the scenario…

I’m a homeless man. I’m sitting on a park bench late at night, when all of a sudden an “angel” appears. He professes to be Gabriel, of the Bible, and has a message for me from God. He tells me Christianity is false, Jesus was not God, nor was he the Messiah, Christianity is evil and sinful, and I must convert everyone to the true religion, which the angel teaches me. The “angel” tells me I am under the command of God and must carry out this mission.

Now, I’m convinced that the angel was really Gabriel, so I go and I preach God’s new message. When the Vatican gets word of this, would they say I was really visited by Gabriel? Never. They would most certainly say that if there was an angel, the angel was in no way Gabriel, and was not sent from God. So, if the angel was not Gabriel and was not send by God, who was it, and who sent it? It could only be a demon or evil spirit, right? Evil, trying to lead me astray. So by following the “angels” message from “god”, am I following the One True God? Or am I following the demon/evil spirit?
 
This is going nowhere. You don’t believe what the Church teaches, so I doubt you’re even Catholic. I’m done posting in this thread. Good bye.
 
Mister_De said:
I’m a homeless man. I’m sitting on a park bench late at night, when all of a sudden an “angel” appears. He professes to be Gabriel, of the Bible, and has a message for me from God. He tells me Christianity is false, Jesus was not God, nor was he the Messiah, Christianity is evil and sinful, and I must convert everyone to the true religion, which the angel teaches me. The “angel” tells me I am under the command of God and must carry out this mission.
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I agree, its unrealistic, but we Muslims believe such thing and we discard that Jesus mentioned in the Bible before 600 years of Islam that there will be false prophets coming after him.
 
ronyodish said:
Steven John,

Catholics do not believe that Sayadatana Mariam al’Athra’ preexisted God.

The title Mother of God simply means that the Son of the Father, our God and our Savior, became Man at conception in her womb, and was born. It does not mean that she is the source of His Divinity.

You can ask me questions if it is unclear for you what I have just said.

Jesus loves you 🙂

Rony
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Peace and blessings Rony,

Indeed Jesus (PBWH) does love me, so much so the truth of his narrated word says God is greater than Jesus (PBWH).
Thats love he speaks truth, that even a little child can understand.

In my post i must have missed explaining that “It took me lots of time and prayer to have understanding of the words they spoke”.

May God bless you and yours for your sharing of truth.
 
wisdomseeker said:
yes that is what i am say that we never loose our faith on our Lord and in His Body which is the Church instituted by Him like so many has done.

Peace be unto you.
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Neither selling all you have or praying to God 5 times per day will have you lose faith.

The second will increase it and the first proves it.

Peace be unto you and yours
 
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