Modern rabbinic Judaism, Deut.13:1-5 and Yeshua

[Lev23]

HaShem,

I agree most of what Jesus taught was not new to Judaism, I wouldn’t go as far as to call it plagerism though.

This whole “plagerism” excuse is weaker than a wet paper bag. This is just another lie taught to people why they should not believe Jesus is Messiah.

 

[HashemEchad]

and he and his companions were hungry?

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples **were hungry **and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.

do you believe that if you are very hungry on a sabbath, you better starve than break it?

Jews have always been taught that on the day before the Sabbath, you lay aside a DOUBLE PORTION so that you do not HAVE TO gather food on the Sabbath. This is the symbolic meaning of the TWO challot used on Friday evening in religious Jewish homes.

If Jesus and his followers were truly so observant and keepers of the Torah, why did they neglect to do that, as all other religious Jews do?

THAT was what the Pharisses were criticizing him and his followers for…because they neglected to lay aside the double portion the day before the Sabbath.

 

[HashemEchad]

inJESUS;3756049:

Plus, it did not take place on the Sabbath either, as far as we know.

 

[HashemEchad]

;And your sons and daughters will prophesy,**Your old men will dream dreams **Your young men will see visions.

Nowhere does the Prophet Joel say that visions will be the ONLY thing they do. And that is a prophecy for the End of Days, not the time of Jesus anyway.

 

[Lev23]

LIke everyone else, Jesus had plenty of time to prepare for the Sabbath. There is an overriding principle, as you know, that most commandments must be violated if it is necessary to preserve life. Going hungry on Sabbath doesn’t fall under this rule. To harvest grain on sabbath is a violation. It is not difficult. And pointing to David eating bread set aside for the priests/God when his men were fleeing death doesn’t change that.

So how are the poor with nothing, especially moving about, supposed to prepare for the Sabbath?

And don’t forget, Jesus was announcing the Kingdom is at hand to all those in the land of Israel. Something far more significant than fleeing death from the hands of mere men. He was doing the Father’s will, casting out demons, healing the sick, making the blind see, preaching constantly to thousands, tempted by Satan himself, etc.

So when the Sabbath came, there was an opportunity for his men and himself to eat because they were hungary, and all the pharisee’s could think of is not showing mercy by condemning the innocent.

 

[HashemEchad]

So how are the poor with nothing, especially moving about, supposed to prepare for the Sabbath?

And don’t forget, Jesus was announcing the Kingdom is at hand to all those in the land of Israel. Something far more significant than fleeing death from the hands of mere men. He was doing the Father’s will, casting out demons, healing the sick, making the blind see, preaching constantly to thousands, tempted by Satan himself, etc.

So when the Sabbath came, there was an opportunity for his men and himself to eat because they were hungary, and all the pharisee’s could think of is not showing mercy by condemning the innocent.

What you are doing is making excuses for Jesus and the fact that he told his followers it was OK to violate the Sabbath.

In the Torah itself, Jews are told to prepare a double portion on the day before the Sabbath. This is in the TORAH ITSELF, and it applies to ALL Jews. If you want to blame anyone for the “double portion” rule, blame God!

But, wait, you believe Jesus IS divine, so there we go with the circular reasoning of Christians again. You’ll just reply that since he is allegedly divine, he can change his own laws.

Well, at least we have established that he did not “keep the Torah perfectly”, as so many Christians like to claim. Nor did he “fulfill” it.

 

[Lev23]

What you are doing is making excuses for Jesus and the fact that he told his followers it was OK to violate the Sabbath.

In the Torah itself, Jews are told to prepare a double portion on the day before the Sabbath. This is in the TORAH ITSELF, and it applies to ALL Jews. If you want to blame anyone for the “double portion” rule, blame God!

But, wait, you believe Jesus IS divine, so there we go with the circular reasoning of Christians again. You’ll just reply that since he is allegedly divine, he can change his own laws.

Well, at least we have established that he did not “keep the Torah perfectly”, as so many Christians like to claim. Nor did he “fulfill” it.

Alright, you want to call Jesus a violater of the Torah, when in Orthodox Judaism there are so many rules on how to keep the sabbath, it makes one head spin.

Why don’t you respond to my other thread I started earlier today?

If one wants to watch television on the sabbath, all they got to do is leave the tv on or have a self timer set.

There are soooo many “workarounds” when it comes to the sabbath, these things without a doubt are from men, and NOT God.

The Jews had many traditions with respect to the Sabbath and how it was to be kept. They had many regulations restricting behavior that were not found as prohibitions in the Law of Moses. They did not allow the lighting of candles on the Sabbath. They made it unlawful to throw more grain to their poultry than could be eaten lest some of it might sprout and grow and therefore they would be guilty of sowing on the Sabbath. They taught that it was unlawful to swat a fly on the Sabbath.

Jesus did not think that it was necessary to observe all of the trivial regulations that came about through the traditions of men even though it brought criticism of himself and his disciples on numerous occasions. Jesus received more criticism about what he did and did not do on the Sabbath than he got on any other matter.

 

[HashemEchad]

Alright, you want to call Jesus a violater of the Torah, when in Orthodox Judaism there are so many rules on how to keep the sabbath, it makes one head spin.

Why don’t you respond to my other thread I started earlier today?

If one wants to watch television on the sabbath, all they got to do is leave the tv on or have a self timer set.

There are soooo many “workarounds” when it comes to the sabbath, these things without a doubt are from men, and NOT God.

The Jews had many traditions with respect to the Sabbath and how it was to be kept. They had many regulations restricting behavior that were not found as prohibitions in the Law of Moses. They did not allow the lighting of candles on the Sabbath. They made it unlawful to throw more grain to their poultry than could be eaten lest some of it might sprout and grow and therefore they would be guilty of sowing on the Sabbath. They taught that it was unlawful to swat a fly on the Sabbath.

Jesus did not think that it was necessary to observe all of the trivial regulations that came about through the traditions of men even though it brought criticism of himself and his disciples on numerous occasions. Jesus received more criticism about what he did and did not do on the Sabbath than he got on any other matter.

The 'trivial laws" you are referring to are what the rabbis of the Talmud call the “fence” around the Torah.

At one time, when I was a secular Jew, I felt the way you do about that…until (ironically!) a messianic jew explained to me why the rabbis did that, and the way she explained it made sense to me.

She told me that the rabbis were afraid people might break the actual Torah laws, from God, and would be punished by God for it. So, to protect the Jewish people out of their great love for them, they enacted rabbinical laws that are “fences” (just as a fence helps protect a house)…they reasoned that if people learned to be stringent about the “fences”, they would never break the Torah laws, which were from God.

The Catholic religion also has many laws that are not found in their Scriptures, yet Catholics who are religious have no problem following them. Using your reasoning, maybe the Catholic church is also following “traditions of men”, as the fundies like to claim?

 

[Lev23]

they reasoned that if people learned to be stringent about the “fences”, they would never break the Torah laws, which were from God.

Here is the problem, the “fence” ends up simply being a “workaround” to what God said. And these fences are broke they are just as condemning if one breaks a Torah Law.

 

[HashemEchad]

Here is the problem, the “fence” ends up simply being a “workaround” to what God said. And these fences are broke they are just as condemning if one breaks a Torah Law.

The “fence” laws were designed to safeguard the Torah by rabbis who are shomrei Torah. It was done with a GOOD intention and a GOOD purpose, to protect the sanctity of the Holy Torah.

But if a Jew breaks one, it is not anywhere near the same as if (chas ve’sholom) he breaks an actual Torah Law. Any Orthodox rabbi will tell you that.

 

[Lev23]

The “fence” laws were designed to safeguard the Torah by rabbis who are shomrei Torah. It was done with a GOOD intention and a GOOD purpose, to protect the sanctity of the Holy Torah.

But if a Jew breaks one, it is not anywhere near the same as if (chas ve’sholom) he breaks an actual Torah Law. Any Orthodox rabbi will tell you that.

Sure. How complicated these “fence” laws are to. You can wear a coat but cannot carry it, you can walk so many yards, etc.

I agree it had good intentions and a good purpose, but come on.

 

[adstrinity]

The 'trivial laws" you are referring to are what the rabbis of the Talmud call the “fence” around the Torah.

At one time, when I was a secular Jew, I felt the way you do about that…until (ironically!) a messianic jew explained to me why the rabbis did that, and the way she explained it made sense to me.

She told me that the rabbis were afraid people might break the actual Torah laws, from God, and would be punished by God for it. So, to protect the Jewish people out of their great love for them, they enacted rabbinical laws that are “fences” (just as a fence helps protect a house)…they reasoned that if people learned to be stringent about the “fences”, they would never break the Torah laws, which were from God.

The Catholic religion also has many laws that are not found in their Scriptures, yet Catholics who are religious have no problem following them. Using your reasoning, maybe the Catholic church is also following “traditions of men”, as the fundies like to claim?

Now wait. If this is true, than, by Jesus not observing the fence laws, He isn’t breaking one of the Commandments of God, but, discerning traditions of men from what God commanded?

What is a law the Catholics have that is not founded in our Scriptures?

 

[Lev23]

What you are doing is making excuses for Jesus and the fact that he told his followers it was OK to violate the Sabbath.

In the Torah itself, Jews are told to prepare a double portion on the day before the Sabbath. This is in the TORAH ITSELF, and it applies to ALL Jews. If you want to blame anyone for the “double portion” rule, blame God!
:

Again, you miss the whole point. Jesus was obviously being watched closely by the pharisees of his day. They see Jesus and his followers pick grain from the field, and the pharisees are there ready to condemn him. The funny thing is, the pharisees were so closely watching him, how could they prepare their double portions before the Sabbath? I’m sure these particular pharisees had people waiting on them hand and foot. They had all the time in the world to be self-rightous.

In which Leviticus 23:22, it is written-
‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.’ "

In Exodus 20:10, it is written-
…but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

The pharisees knew what Jesus and his followers would probably do. Instead of the pharisees showing mercy and inviting Jesus and his followers to come “within their gates”, they choose not to show any love for their fellow bretheren who were innocent.

This is why Jesus told them they did not understand Hosea 6:6, which is written-"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

 

[Lev23]

The Catholic religion also has many laws that are not found in their Scriptures, yet Catholics who are religious have no problem following them. Using your reasoning, maybe the Catholic church is also following “traditions of men”, as the fundies like to claim?

The last time I checked, catholics build their faith upon Yeshua.

Do you?

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3756106:

i did not say visions are the only thing…remember, we do not take them at face value as well. My point was that visions are not a trick sent by God, as you implied… Visions and dreams are signs from God when He decides the where and when…As to the end of days, who knows when it will be?

 

[inJESUS]

how did you know the circumstances?

Going hungry on Sabbath doesn’t fall under this rule.

if you get hungry on the sabbath, for whatver reason, what do you do? if circumstances happened that you could not prepare food, what do you do? you starve?

To harvest grain on sabbath is a violation.

as a labor, i understand it…you must not labor, do business ecc…but to eat ?

It is not difficult. And pointing to David eating bread set aside for the priests/God when his men were fleeing death doesn’t change that.

of course it does. It proves that the sabbath is not a torture, it can be amended out of necessity and God will not get angry at it. I think God will get angry when you turn the sabbath into a spirit-less commandmant of do and do not, and hence become slaves of it when the sabbath is very beautiful and spiritual commandmant made for man.

 

[HashemEchad]

Sure. How complicated these “fence” laws are to. You can wear a coat but cannot carry it, you can walk so many yards, etc.

I agree it had good intentions and a good purpose, but come on.

Have you ever read the Code of Canon Law (1917 or 1983) of the Catholic church?

Have you ever read Moral Theology by Fr Heribert Jone?

And you want to bash *Orthodox Judaism *for having minutiae when it comes to laws???

 

[HashemEchad]

HashemEchad;3756541:

inJESUS;3756106:

i did not say visions are the only thing…remember, we do not take them at face value as well. My point was that visions are not a trick sent by God, as you implied… Visions and dreams are signs from God when He decides the where and when…As to the end of days, who knows when it will be?

It depends on whether or not they TRULY ARE from God. If a vision tells a Jew to do something contrary to Torah or to follow another religion, he can be CERTAIN it is not from Hashem (God.)

 

[HashemEchad]

how did you know the circumstances?

Yet Christians have seen fit to do away with the 7th day Sabbath ALTOGETHER in their religion.

That just goes to show that when you make exceptions here and there, sooner or later you get rid of the entire thing.

 

[Lev23]

And you want to bash *Orthodox Judaism *for having minutiae when it comes to laws???

Im not bashing anything here nor offended.

Remember this topic is about the use of Deut 13 view to refute Jesus.