Modern Theism, etc., Re: Sister Elizabeth A. Johnson

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It is time to defend the Catholic Church!

Is there anyone who can explain Modern Theism, etc., as found in this document by the Committee on Doctrine, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops?

usccb.org/doctrine/statement-quest-for-the-living-god-2011-03-24.pdf

Topics include:
  1. A false alternative: “modern theism” or radical reconstruction of the idea of God
  2. A God Who suffers
  3. New names for the unknown God
  4. The presence of God in all the religions
  5. Creator spirit in the evolving world
  6. Trinity: the living God of love
Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
It is time to defend the Catholic Church!

Is there anyone who can explain Modern Theism, etc., as found in this document by the Committee on Doctrine, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops?
I don’t understand the question. I think the Bishop’s committee did a pretty good job explaining (and refuting) each term. Is there something that you feel is lacking in the Bishop’s smackdown of this heretical nun’s book?

It seems the Bishops are doing a pretty good job (better than usual) of confronting and refuting heresy from prominent figures, without any help from us. I hope they keep up the good work - there are plenty of heretical nuns/sisters and monks/brothers/priests to go!
 
I don’t understand the question. I think the Bishop’s committee did a pretty good job explaining (and refuting) each term. Is there something that you feel is lacking in the Bishop’s smackdown of this heretical nun’s book?

It seems the Bishops are doing a pretty good job (better than usual) of confronting and refuting heresy from prominent figures, without any help from us. I hope they keep up the good work - there are plenty of heretical nuns/sisters and monks/brothers/priests to go!
Thank you. I agree that the Bishop’s statement is excellent,

However, the manner in which this statement was attacked elsewhere made me wonder if I were in the wrong. So I brought the real issues to the Apologetics Forum.
My original intention was to discuss the real issues as ordinary folk. But I cannot do that right now because I am very angry about the fallout from the errors of certain people who wear the Catholic label. In other words, I am taking a break from CAF.

Blessings,
granny
 
…The manner in which this statement was attacked elsewhere made me wonder if I were in the wrong.
Unfortunately, CAF rules (as you probably know) do not allow public posting of other discussion forums. But I would be happy to defend the Bishops if you would privately tell me (via a private forum message) where you found the Bishops’ statement under attack.

I am very sure that this statement ignited a firestorm. Heretics wearing the “Catholic” label have operated virtually unopposed by the USCCB for decades. They have taught in our universities and seminaries, and have preached poison to our Faithful with impunity. FINALLY the USCCB is taking notice, and has taken one of these heretical theologians to task. This must have ignited sheer panic in the anti-Catholic Catholics.

I KNOW these heretics, because I was once one of them. I can defend our Bishops when they condemn heresy from within, and I am eager to do so. I am their Knight.
In other words, I am taking a break from CAF.
I hope we see you again soon.

Blessings to you, granny. You will be missed. I just noticed that this is my 2,500th post - somewhat of a milestone. I dedicate my other 2,499 posts to you.
 
This topic has been discussed intensively for the past week over in the Catholic News forum, here at CAF. The thread was originally about the bishops’ committee criticism of Quest for a Living God, but didn’t draw many comments until after it author (Sr. Elizabeth Johnson) issued a lengthy rebuttal.

US Catholic theologians, by and large, seem to be lining up behind Sr. Elizabeth. At least two national organizations of theologians have issued public statements in defense of her book. They say that the bishops’ committee has misread the book. And they say that the committee violated the 1989 policy which recommended that the USCCB and theologians negotiate any differences in private, before making formal public statements.

Its been suggested that the discussion thread would be more productive if more people would read the book in question. I’m inclined to agree and have ordered it. However, so far only one person in that discussion thread seems to have read the book.

Of course, there are related issues which don’t require knowledge of what Sr. Elizabeth actually wrote. For example, should an imprimatur be required for texts used in college theology courses? If so, who should require it: the professor, the university, the bishops conference etc? If a formal imprimatur is not to be required, should theologians be encouraged to submit their works to their national bishop’s conference for informal vetting and recommendations? Would doing so put a damper on theology and academic freedom?

However, perhaps the central matter is what Sr. Elizabeth’s book said. Several people in the Catholic News forum have mentioned that if the book was confusing to bishops, it can’t be any clearer to college students. Its a commonsense argument, and a reasonable position. But I think that support for it could be increased (or possibly decreased) if we were personally familiar with the book.
 
Unfortunately, CAF rules (as you probably know) do not allow public posting of other discussion forums. But I would be happy to defend the Bishops if you would privately tell me (via a private forum message) where you found the Bishops’ statement under attack.

I am very sure that this statement ignited a firestorm. Heretics wearing the “Catholic” label have operated virtually unopposed by the USCCB for decades. They have taught in our universities and seminaries, and have preached poison to our Faithful with impunity. FINALLY the USCCB is taking notice, and has taken one of these heretical theologians to task. This must have ignited sheer panic in the anti-Catholic Catholics.

I KNOW these heretics, because I was once one of them. I can defend our Bishops when they condemn heresy from within, and I am eager to do so. I am their Knight.

I hope we see you again soon.

Blessings to you, granny. You will be missed. I just noticed that this is my 2,500th post - somewhat of a milestone. I dedicate my other 2,499 posts to you.
Thank you.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=549353

The links in this thread are very important.
 
This topic has been discussed intensively for the past week over in the Catholic News forum, here at CAF. The thread was originally about the bishops’ committee criticism of Quest for a Living God, but didn’t draw many comments until after it author (Sr. Elizabeth Johnson) issued a lengthy rebuttal.

US Catholic theologians, by and large, seem to be lining up behind Sr. Elizabeth. At least two national organizations of theologians have issued public statements in defense of her book. They say that the bishops’ committee has misread the book. And they say that the committee violated the 1989 policy which recommended that the USCCB and theologians negotiate any differences in private, before making formal public statements.

Its been suggested that the discussion thread would be more productive if more people would read the book in question. I’m inclined to agree and have ordered it. However, so far only one person in that discussion thread seems to have read the book.

Of course, there are related issues which don’t require knowledge of what Sr. Elizabeth actually wrote. For example, should an imprimatur be required for texts used in college theology courses? If so, who should require it: the professor, the university, the bishops conference etc? If a formal imprimatur is not to be required, should theologians be encouraged to submit their works to their national bishop’s conference for informal vetting and recommendations? Would doing so put a damper on theology and academic freedom?

However, perhaps the central matter is what Sr. Elizabeth’s book said. Several people in the Catholic News forum have mentioned that if the book was confusing to bishops, it can’t be any clearer to college students. Its a commonsense argument, and a reasonable position. But I think that support for it could be increased (or possibly decreased) if we were personally familiar with the book.
I am glad to see you here. My apology for losing my temper and leaving that thread.

It is really time for me to take a break, heal from a dislocated elbow, and get back to studying my current area of interest which is the opposition to a real Adam & Eve.
Obviously, I am learning about the “catholic” opposition from CAF posts.
 
I am glad to see you here. My apology for losing my temper and leaving that thread.
Thank you for the kind word, and I totally understand. The discussion in the thread has, at times, taxed my patience as well. :o
It is really time for me to take a break, heal from a dislocated elbow, and get back to studying my current area of interest which is the opposition to a real Adam & Eve.
I take a CAF breaks every now and then. If I notice that I have made two or more uncharitable posts during a week, I give myself a time-out. It does wonders for my peace of mind, I regain my perspective, and it keeps me from getting banned. 😃
Obviously, I am learning about the “catholic” opposition from CAF posts.
Discussing religion via the internet is a challenge because positions are often so deeply held and felt. Some people are able to dialogue charitably, some (unfortunately) are not. Yet we get exposed to both types here at CAF.

You’re one of the good people and I will miss your voice. But I also look forward to your return here, fully restored and revitalized. 🙂

I hope your elbow heals quickly and with a minimum of pain and complications.
 
US Catholic theologians, by and large, seem to be lining up behind Sr. Elizabeth. At least two national organizations of theologians have issued public statements in defense of her book. They say that the bishops’ committee has misread the book. And they say that the committee violated the 1989 policy which recommended that the USCCB and theologians negotiate any differences in private, before making formal public statements.
"The College Theology Society is a professional society of theologians, solidly rooted in the Roman Catholic tradition and with a strong commitment to ecumenical collaboration, dedicated to teaching theology at the undergraduate level. With this mission in mind, we believe that Elizabeth Johnson’s book Quest for the Living God: Mapping Frontiers in the Theology of God exemplifies a compelling style of Catholic theology that engages many different kinds of undergraduate students populating college and university campuses. Her theology is credited with plumbing the depths of the received Catholic tradition as found in diverse scriptural and historical witnesses of faith while investigating pressing issues and searching for ever deeper understanding. This book illustrates what has been a hallmark of all of Johnson’s work: a dedication to exploring the living faith of the Church as it is conveyed in communities in various cultures and contexts in the United States and throughout the world. Her gifts and talents as a highly effective theological educator are clearly displayed in this book.

"Since the membership of the College Theology Society includes a high percentage of younger faculty members and graduate students in theology, we are particularly concerned about the chilling effect the statement by the Committee on Doctrine will have on our younger colleagues. Instead of cultivating a culture of open collaboration and mutual dialogue between bishops, theologians, and the people of God in the advancement of a deeper understanding of the faith, the document of the Committee on Doctrine, as well as the process by which that document was formulated, breeds disillusionment, fear, and mistrust among younger theologians in their relation to bishops and increasing sadness and fatigue among more seasoned scholars.

"Finally, the members of the College Theology Society are engaged in ecumenical and interfaith education and scholarship aimed at promoting mutual understanding among ourselves and with our students of diverse faiths and worldviews. In both substance and process, the statement by the Committee on Doctrine threatens to undermine the credibility of the Catholic Church and its hierarchy among many of our respected collaborators and students of different faiths and worldviews.

“We are honored to have Professor Elizabeth Johnson as a member of the College Theology Society. We fully support her during this period when the arguments advanced by the Committee on Doctrine are debated among theological faculties and in the Church and public at large. We implore the Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine to recognize the deep commitment of this faithful servant of the Church and to adhere to its own processes in seeking clarification about methodologies used or conclusions reached in the work of this highly respected Catholic theologian.”

collegetheology.org/
 
"The College Theology Society
StAnastasia, thank you. Yes, the CTS and the Catholic Theological Society of America are the two organizations I was thinking of.

The discussion thread over in Catholic News mentioned the CTSA quite a few times, but the CTS has also cast its support for Sr. Elizabeth. I appreciate your quoting their statement of support.
 
StAnastasia, thank you. Yes, the CTS and the Catholic Theological Society of America are the two organizations I was thinking of.

The discussion thread over in Catholic News mentioned the CTSA quite a few times, but the CTS has also cast its support for Sr. Elizabeth. I appreciate your quoting their statement of support.
You’re welcome, Dale_M. I haven’t yet joined the CTS, in part because it meets around the same time as the CTSA, and I can’t afford to participate in both. But friends in the CTSA say the CTS is actually a more friendly and intimate group, focused on pedagogical issues. I may attend a conference some time when it’s local to me.

StAnastasia
 
Fr. Thomas Weinandy, who heads the Secretariat for Doctrine at the USCCB has said in an interview that the doctrine committee will thoroughly review Sr. Elizabeth’s rebuttal of the committee’s critique. He expects that this review will take months.
ncronline.org/news/theology/bishops-response-rebuked-theologian-could-take-months
Dale_M, I’m not sure Elizabeth Johnson would employ the term “rebuttal.” I think she regards it as a thoughtful response to the bishops’ criticisms.
 
Dale_M, I’m not sure Elizabeth Johnson would employ the term “rebuttal.” I think she regards it as a thoughtful response to the bishops’ criticisms.
I can the see the need for a different word. I admit I was a bit unsure of how to describe her letter. I don’t think the word “reply” fully captures it, since the word is neutral and doesn’t reflect that she strongly disagrees with the statement from the bishops’ committee.

Is there a word or phrase you would recommend?
 
I can the see the need for a different word. I admit I was a bit unsure of how to describe her letter. I don’t think the word “reply” fully captures it, since the word is neutral and doesn’t reflect that she strongly disagrees with the statement from the bishops’ committee. Is there a word or phrase you would recommend?
That’s why I said “response” rather than “reply.”
 
It is time to defend the Catholic Church!

Is there anyone who can explain Modern Theism, etc., as found in this document by the Committee on Doctrine, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops?
It’s a thoughtful critique–a good starting point for discussion, I think. Unfortunately, I haven’t read Sr. Johnson’s book, and I know that she’s complained that the bishops have not contacted her directly before issuing their condemnation and that they have misrepresented her seriously. Their failure to engage her in dialogue undercuts their pastoral effort by running the risk of condemning views she does not in fact hold. With that caveat, here are some thoughts on the statement itself:
  1. A false alternative: “modern theism” or radical reconstruction of the idea of God
I certainly think that this is a common approach by contemporary theologians–set up a straw man and then present a radical alternative. And if that’s what she’s doing, the bishops are right to object. The “modern theism” she criticizes is alive and well, unfortunately, and I think the bishops are too quick to deny that it has contaminated Catholic theology. But if she doesn’t address the patristic doctrine of God’s impassibility, that’s a serious flaw.

For some reason you omit perhaps the key issue raised in the document: Sr. Johnson’s claim that all language for God is metaphorical. I’d like to hear her side of this, but certainly the position described by the bishops “cuts the Gordian knot” of a very difficult issue. The question of how language about God can be true given God’s transcendence and infinity is one of the most difficult ones in Christian theology. It seems to me that there are two major answers: those of Thomas Aquinas and of Gregory Palamas (the latter being rooted in the Cappadocian Fathers). In the first approach, which is assumed by the bishops and is the dominant one in Western Catholicism, language about God is seen as “analogical,” a third thing between literal and metaphorical. I’d like to hear more about whether and how Sr. Johnson engages Aquinas’s understanding of analogy.

The other view, which I’d like to see Western Christians take more seriously, is the distinction between God’s essence and energies. According to this view, God’s essence is in fact unknowable, but His uncreated energies are not. All language about God is in fact speaking of the uncreated energies.

If Sr. Johnson is really simply bypassing these two orthodox alternatives in favor of a flat denial that any language about God really says anything about God at all, then that’s a huge problem. But given her complaints and the huge complexity of this issue, I wonder if the bishops are representing her accurately here. One point they make that I’d like to see further examined is that (allegedly) she rates different language about God not by how it relates to the unknowable reality of God but purely by its effects in this world. That’s certainly a tendency that I observe in much contemporary liberal theology–I’d like to hear her answer to the charge.

I rather suspect that the bishops are unfairly attributing to her the view that all metaphors are equally inadequate. The theologians I’ve read who think that all language about God is metaphorical certainly do not believe this–I’d be surprised if she does.
  1. A God Who suffers
As the bishops note, Sr. Johnson presents this as “metaphor.” As such, I would defend it.

In a thoroughly apophatic view, language about God is purely metaphorical in its positive sense, but may still be regarded as literally true in its negative sense. (This is something that the bishops don’t seem to address). In this case, that means that it might be true that God does not suffer in the sense that God doesn’t literally suffer as we do. But suffering might still be a good metaphor, and it might be even truer that God is not untouched by our suffering.

Here’s another way of getting at this: think about which of two examples found in creatures is more like the reality of God. In this case, consider these two examples:
  1. A person who compassionately feels the sufferings of others as if they were the person’s own, or
  2. A person who can see another suffer and feel nothing.
Which of these two is more like God? Surely the former. That does not mean that God literally suffers, but the bishops admit that she isn’t claiming that.

There’s a lot more here, obviously, but I’ve gone on quite a bit already. . . . if I have time I’ll come back to the other points later.
 
Oh. 😊

That’s what I get for posting in the middle of the night. Sometimes its better just to stay in bed. :o
That is what I am doing until I can get a grip on why I am so passionate about the feminine issues.

:yawn:
:sleep:
 
It’s a thoughtful critique–a good starting point for discussion, I think. Unfortunately, I haven’t read Sr. Johnson’s book, and I know that she’s complained that the bishops have not contacted her directly before issuing their condemnation and that they have misrepresented her seriously. Their failure to engage her in dialogue undercuts their pastoral effort by running the risk of condemning views she does not in fact hold. With that caveat, here are some thoughts on the statement itself:
Contarini, thank you for your thoughtful comments and provocative questions. The way you discuss Sister Dr. Johnson’s work is exactly how it should be discussed, and how we do it in academe. We don’t do it by issuing a magisterial public critique signed by seven people. A lot of my colleagues at the CTSA last week expressed the opinion that if the author of Quest for the Living God had been a male, things would have worked out differently. As one said, “Dr. Elizabeth Johnson is being convicted of TWF” (thinking while female).

There are 1,200 members of the CTSA, 900 members of the College Theology Society, and 1,500 members of the Catholic Biblical Association. Dr. Johnson enjoys near unanimous support among these scholars, who are opposed to the bishops’ tactics and approach. It will be interesting to see how they respond now that the ball is in their court.

I leave in a few hours for a wilderness trip, and will respond to you when I return next week.

StAnastasia
 
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