Modernizing the Hail Mary

[NeedImprovement]

As I’d mentioned before, my particular point of contention (…hope the OP will forgive me if it is perceived as slightly off topic ) is that in the french language, the equivalent of “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus” is frequently rendered “and Jesus your child is blessed”, by some when they pray the Hail Mary.

I took a cross-section of the different ***english translations ***of the bible and you’d be surprised how many of the more recent translations in english render Luke 1:42 “…blessed is the fruit of thy womb” as “…and blessed is the child you will bear!”.

Here are some which have kept the phrase true to its original form:

Luke 1:42 (New American Standard Bible)
42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

Luke 1:42 (King James Version)
42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1:42 (Darby Translation)
42and cried out with a loud voice and said, Blessed [art] thou amongst women, and blessed the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1:42 (Amplified Bible)
42And she cried out with a loud cry, and then exclaimed, Blessed (favored of God) above all other women are you! And blessed (favored of God) is the Fruit of your womb

Luke 1:42 (Young’s Literal Translation)
42and spake out with a loud voice, and said, `Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb;

Luke 1:42 (New American Bible) USCCB approved
…cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

Unfortunately I’m no expert in Greek , Aramaic or Hebrew, but the Latin Vulgate also says the equivalent of “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”

Latin Vulgate

42 et exclamavit voce magna et dixit benedicta tu inter mulieres et benedictus fructus ventris tui.

As far as I can tell, after the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is on reserve, or the altar when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is being offered,…after these two things, the mother’s womb is the holiest place on earth. Because the incarnation took place in Our Blessed Mother’s womb, her womb is infinitely more holy.

What possible good purpose could it serve to eliminate mention of Her womb. Isn’t that like saying Jesus died without mentioning his Cross ?

… Coincidental, that today in our society life in the womb becomes more and more threatened …?

A little piece I clipped on St. Jerome re Latin Vulgate:

“Among other duties he undertook the revision of the text of the Latin Bible on the basis of the Greek New Testament and the Septuagint, in order to put an end to the marked divergences in the current western texts. This commission determined the course of his scholarly activity for many years, and is his most important contribution to Biblical studies. Jerome exercised an important influence during these three years, to which, outside of his unusual learning, his zeal for ascetic strictness and the realization of the monastic ideal contributed not a little…”

 

[mullenpm]

Thank you Layman, I was beginning to feel that I was in the minority here.:yup:

And, NeedImprovement, I do not think your post is off track; in fact, I believe it is very much on track.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Thanks mullenpm.

Looks like word finally got around, doesn’t it ?

 

[malphono]

Unfortunately I’m no expert in Greek , Aramaic or Hebrew, but the Latin Vulgate also says the equivalent of “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”

FWIW, looking at the Aramaic, the wording translates almost exactly like the the traditional French “entrailles.”

 

[atassina]

Dear Layman: You have indirectly proposed a challenge. In this day and age, February 2009, how do people actually address living kings and queens? How do they address presidents and other high officials? We continue to address judges as “your honor” and not “thou honor”. Let’s see what we can come up with. Peace, Anthony

 

[Ghoti]

Dear Layman: You have indirectly proposed a challenge. In this day and age, February 2009, how do people actually address living kings and queens? How do they address presidents and other high officials? We continue to address judges as “your honor” and not “thou honor”. Let’s see what we can come up with. Peace, Anthony

The Prez is “Mr. President”. I think Secretaries are “Mr. (Madam(e)?) Secretary”.

I dunno about anyone else’s royalty, but HM The Queen is addressed initially as “Your Majesty”, thereafter as “Ma’am”; HRH the Duke of Edinburgh as “Your Highness”, thereafter as “Sir”. Never having been before a judge myself, I only know from television that the ones here in Ontario (at least at one level – either Supreme or Superior) are “M’Lord” (seemingly pronounced “M’Lard”); Donna (a legal secretary) tells me in the other, it’s “Your Honour”.

I can’t think of any title – royal, ecclesiastic, or otherwise – that uses “Thy” instead of “Your” (Your Holiness/Eminence/Grace/Excellency/Lordship/Majesty etc).

 

[Layman]

Using ancient prayers as-is connects me with a long line of holy men and women. I partake of an honourable and ancient practice of pious worship.

Changing these prayers for intellectual reasons connects me with with … others of like mind in the present.

If you want to destroy a man without killing him, take away his family name, his nationality, his profession, his culture, his history, his sex, his religion.

If you did this all at once, there would be an outcry.

Far easier to do it gradually. Change a bit here, alter a bit there, take your time.

**What’s the common complaint of people who go to psychiatrists these days?: “They don’t know who they are any more”. **

I align myself with the TLM and the ancient prayers of the Catholic as a statement of intent, which I hope Heaven will hear. I wish to belong to the line of St. Padre Pio, St. Jean Vianney and St. Antony.

What saints has this new modernising movement made? Where are the legions of seminarians moved by the Novus Ordo and modernised prayers to give up marriage and fatherhood for Christ’s sake?

I wish to enter into the kingdom of Heaven upon the death of my body. Traditional Catholicism is a tried-and-tested means of bringing this about.

I’m not risking my soul on the basis of someone else’s intellectualisms. Give Vat. II 200 years and its true fruits will be known.

I haven’t got that long.

I see the changes made to our religion post Vat. II. as making our worship banal and commonplace; the church as a meeting-house for people sure of their salvation, rather than the temple of a supernatural King whose good will we implore and whose sacrifice we honour.

 

[mullenpm]

I question the relevancy of the posters who list all the titles for judges, presidents, kings, queens, etc.

Who cares what you call them.

I am talking about the Blessed Mother here - the Mother of Our Dear Lord and the Queen of Heaven.

Use your street language if you prefer; but, I expect more respect and reverence for Mary’s prayer from Marian priests.

 

[brigid12]

I question the relevancy of the posters who list all the titles for judges, presidents, kings, queens, etc.

Who cares what you call them.

I am talking about the Blessed Mother here - the Mother of Our Dear Lord and the Queen of Heaven.

Use your street language if you prefer; but, I expect more respect and reverence for Mary’s prayer from Marian priests.

Originally posted by Layman
…Coincidental, that today in our society life in the womb becomes more and more threatened …?

That’s a really interesting thought! I hadn’t considered that, but it makes eery sense!

 

[atassina]

Dear Mullenpm:
The exact point of listing modern day ways of addressing royalty and other high officials was to answer the question, “How do we continue to address royalty?” We no longer use thee or thy. Therefore, why do we continue to use thee and thy in our prayers? So far, nobody has established a consistent, valid intellectual position for the use of thee or thy in our prayers.

Secondly, you need to establish the intellectual ground regarding disrespect for the Holy Mother. Why is using you and your disrespectful towards our Holy Mother or towards Jesus? If you make an assertion, you must intellectually support its foundations. Otherwise your position is merely a feeling, and all feelings are valid, even feelings in opposition to your own feelings. How will we arrive at any practical truth that we can implement in our liturgical activities?

That’s enough for now. Let’s stay focused in our dialog and attempt to arrive at an actual conclusion. Peace, Anthony

 

[fbl9]

Just my penny’s whorth here.
Using you and your just interupts the flow of this beautiful prayer.

 

[Layman]

Well, if you get rid of ‘thee’ and ‘thou’, why would you use ‘Hail’ either? Or bother with archaic language at all?

Bring it up to date:

“Hello, Mary, you are full of Grace,
The Boss is pleased with you,
You are blessed above other women,
And your foetus, Jesus, is blessed too …”

We use archaic language to help us get out of an everday mindsetand into a religious one. It’s not a technical manual we’re reading here. It doesn’t need updating.

It can be argued that this mania for change and modernisation is what’s destroying our religion;** if prayers can be changed, if the Mass can be changed, they must not be that important i.e. sacred.**

 

[rfpapcun]

Whenever you manipulate religious language – even with the best intentions – there are unintended consequences and you open Pandora’s Box.

The best rule is “never change anything.”

 

[brigid12]

Well, if you get rid of ‘thee’ and ‘thou’, why would you use ‘Hail’ either? Or bother with archaic language at all?

Bring it up to date:

“Hello, Mary, you are full of Grace,
The Boss is pleased with you,
You are blessed above other women,
And your foetus, Jesus, is blessed too …”

We use archaic language to help us get out of an everday mindsetand into a religious one. It’s not a technical manual we’re reading here. It doesn’t need updating.

It can be argued that this mania for change and modernisation is what’s destroying our religion;** if prayers can be changed, if the Mass can be changed, they must not be that important i.e. sacred.**

 

[DaveBj]

Respect and reverence is an attitude of the heart, not a matter of word choice. It can influence word choice, (as in shying away from “Hi, Mary! You’re great!”), but clinging to the archaic second-person singular does not prove reverence.

Bear in mind that if the original manuscripts containing the Our Father and the Hail Mary had just been discovered and were being translated for the first time, nobody would even be thinking about using the Elizabethan pronouns. It would be “you’s” all the way.

(For the record, I use “you” when I’m praying by myself, but when I’m with a group, I go with the flow, so as not to call attention.)

DaveBj

 

[Layman]

“Respect and reverence is an attitude of the heart, not a matter of word choice.”

Wrong.

If I say, with a cheery smile, “Get knotted, DaveBJ” instead of “Good morning, DaveBJ” it doesn’t really matter what’s in my heart as far as you’re concerned, does it? Word choice is important.

“Bear in mind that if the original manuscripts containing the Our Father and the Hail Mary had just been discovered and were being translated for the first time …”

But they’re not, are they?

Let’s cut to the chase.

Imagine you have two choices;

1). You can go to a Novus Ordo mass with lay ministers of communion, communion in the hand, ladies in the sanctuary, vernacular language, the priest making up some of the words as he goes along, guitars and drums and modernised prayers (all allowed, currently)

or …

1. You can go to a strict traditional Latin Mass, with Gregorian chant and an organ playing.

If you say you’d be quite comfortable with 1) then I don’t think we’re on the same wavelength.

But to return to your point:

Just what is in the heart of someone who finds it necessary to modify ancient prayers?

 

[Timothysis]

This is one of the silliest threads that I have seen on this forum.

If everyone would have learned the Hail Mary with the “you” and “yours,” you would be objecting if someone suggested using “thee” and “thy.”

If we were really concerned about the most accurate recitation of the prayer, then we would pray it in the Greek of St. Luke’s gospel.

It’s just a translation, folks.

 

[Layman]

Yup, and it’s our translation. It has a past. A history.

I’m not concerned about the most (slavishly) accurate translation. I’m concerned about the one most conducive to piety, the one that brings me closer to Heaven.

Modern translations of the Bible may be more accurate, but the Douay-Rheims is more evocative.

I’m Irish. We still have traces of Elizabethan english in how we speak, I’m told.

A prayer should ideally bring Heaven nearer to the utterer, and the utterer nearer to Heaven.

A rap version of The Hail Mary won’t do that, unless you’re a black ghetto kid. And I wonder if even they’d be happy with such a thing.

Still, modernising tendencies do help flag up which church, parish or devotion you might like to attend. So they have some value.

 

[Timothysis]

Modern translations of the Bible may be more accurate, but the Douay-Rheims is more evocative.

Evocative? As in the passage where Jesus orders the stone to be removed from Lazarus’s tomb and the people reply, “surely, he stinketh”?

A prayer should ideally bring Heaven nearer to the utterer, and the utterer nearer to Heaven.

And “thee,” thy," and “thou” do that?

 

[Layman]

*“surely, he stinketh”? *

That’s actually quite good. Made me smile. Verily, I say unto thee.

And “thee,” thy," and “thou” do that?

Poetry is what’s lost in translation, and I would utter beautiful, mellifluous prayers.

“Hey God, it’s me, Layman” won’t do. I’d be doing Him and myself an injustice. Like the ‘Reithean’ BBC, I think our religion “should be aimed a little over their heads”, to educate and edify.

To lift people up, rather than dumbing down to them.