Modesty is partly cultural-true or false?

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After reading all the arguments on here, I’m going to say the following:
  1. Is modesty partly cultural? Subjectively speaking, yes it is.
  2. Are there any universally, objective standards to modesty? Yes there are.
For example:
  • there are some outfits (I’m not going to detail them) where it doesn’t matter who wears them, from what culture; they are 100% immodest and sinful. Period.
  • At the same time, one outfit can show X part of the body and not be considered immodest, while another outfit can show the same body part but be 100% immodest.
With clothes, it is often not what body parts are showing, but rather what message (intentionally or unintentionally) is being sent by the selection of clothes.

Another example:
  • I’ve seen clothes where every inch of the body is covered, but the outfit is totally immodest, while I’ve seen natives who were 98% naked & covered in dust/dirt who were NOT immodest.
For me, the biggest issue people fail to understand with modest dress is this:
  • Immodest dress is based on BOTH what the wearer’s intent is AND/OR what others will interpret the choice of clothes to mean. Far too many people are only concerned with what the wearer’s intent is or what members of the same sex think. It’s important to remember that we must also consider what other demographics will think based on the choice of dress.
Finally, I know some will totally disagree with me here, but the sin of scandal is NOT limited to just our intent.

God Bless
 
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It’s not a line. It’s a 100% legitimate example. A woman showing her ankles IS immodest in much of the Middle East and would have been so in ancient Israel. Yet it is not immodest for a 21st century Western woman to show her ankle.
Simply dismissing my argument and declaring that no one is convinced by it is not, itself, an argument at all.

You haven’t even defined your premise. You believe, contrary to the Catechism, that culture does not play a role in defining modesty. Yet you have not defined what the universal standard is. Is covering one’s hair and ankle a universal standard? What is your absolute line and what magisterial documents back up your definition?
 
clclnn said:
The obvious question is why do women go without tops on the beach in some places? No reason? I doubt that. The Catechism is clear.
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sunbathing, comfort… and not being obsessed with breasts as sexual objects? Or were you thinking of something else?
 
clclnn said:
The obvious question is why do women go without tops on the beach in some places?
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The obvious answer is that in some places it is allowed by law and in some places it’s not.
 
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The question has to do with an action that is legal in country A but illegal in country B. For instance, there are countries where civilians are free to carry handguns and countries where they’re not. So the same woman who carries a handgun in country A will probably take care to leave it at home when she travels to country B. Does that surprise you?

Similarly, when she goes to the beach, she will feel free to wear a bikini of a certain size and shape in one country that she will take care not to wear in another country. She is a law-abiding citizen!
 
twf said:
Yep. Ankles incite men in some culture and a woman who shows her ankles would be condemned as a harlot. On the other hand, breasts don’t cause a stir at all in some tribal cultures.
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This really exemplifies the cultural aspect. It can be conditioning as well, if the only flesh exposed is the ankle that is going to incite.

I wonder if tribal culture is much more proficient at custody of the eyes so to speak.
 
clclnn said:
Tribal culture survives without artificial birth control and abortion. Those people know what to do and have been doing the right things since before the discovery of America.
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I mean globally, not just regionally
 
Plenty of cultures don’t perceive anything sexual about breasts.
 
clclnn said:
That is living.
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I thought we were discussing dress rather then eating?

To the OP , Australia has a beach culture for those who live on the coast and near to it. Norms at the beach have been dictated by fashions and they have changed over time. Those fashions are set at the Fashion shows of Europe. So in that respect, fashions at the beach will have a common denominator. That being said though, some countries have different standards. For example, Australia had nudity on TV long before USA did. I don’t know about different parts of Europe and Asia, some would have more flexible standards.

It really is up to the Christian to set their own standard, and be comfortable with it , within each culture. I believe we practising Catholic women have a duty and responsibility to be an example to others, but that is just my humble (or not so) opinion.
 
whatistrue said:
a sense, yes. The catch is that “what should be hidden” is definitely influenced by culture
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clclnn said:
Nuns in Africa wear suitable clothing. No breasts or other body area that should be hidden is exposed
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@clclnn
Personally I love that African nuns wear the nun habit and show the world that they are Christian nuns.
Croatian nuns still wear habit too,but generally speaking there are less women wanting to become nuns today.

Regarding “everyday people” I see it the same way @whatistrue has phrased it.
Ie:modesty itself isn’t cultural but the what(level of modesty) can be.
 
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@po18guy
We know the cultures which are most modest dress but interestingly they are still plagued with issues of leering-or worse-towards women.
I think because in those cultures,too much emphasis has been disproportionately socially placed on the modesty and chastity of women with not as much expectation on the men.
The mens dress and behaviour are addressed in their religion,but not as much “taken to task” socially.
 
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Is this referring to a brand logo like “adidas” or do you mean some other kind of statement on the T-shirt’s that people in USA are wearing?
 
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clclnn said:
It is not part cultural. Clothes that cover what should be hidden is the universal standard. Europe is returning to its cultural roots. I am seeing more photos of people in traditional/regional dress, which has great variety in Eastern Europe. No reason to go to Church in jeans. When meeting the Queen, does one wear jeans? Going to the House of God to be with God requires the utmost respect, not anything else.
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I doubt her children would wear even as much as jeans for a summer family poolside barbecue. And I am sure they are no less respectful in bathers or shorts.

And we are ALL God’s children. And He is not just our Father, but our “Abba”, which was an informal term akin to “Daddy”. Imagine our God wanting us to call Him Daddy! Doesn’t sound like He insists on formality or ceremony, at least not all the time.
 
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I do not see it so much as a dress issue with men - their lusting and the behavior it begets is the issue. Men are extremely visual - thus the power of pornography over them. Custody of the eyes is much of the solution. Yet, both sexes are held to the same standard of thought and action.
 
clclnn said:
It is not part cultural. Clothes that cover what should be hidden is the universal standard. Europe is returning to its cultural roots. I am seeing more photos of people in traditional/regional dress, which has great variety in Eastern Europe. No reason to go to Church in jeans. When meeting the Queen, does one wear jeans? Going to the House of God to be with God requires the utmost respect, not anything else.
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On the other hand, if you go to Church in a place like Brazil, it’s not uncommon to see girls and women in shorts.

Sometimes even singing in the choir.

So, yeah, cultural.
 
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clclnn said:
Yet breasts are defined as being part of the body that needed to be covered.
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By whom? Remember that not all people on Earth are Christian. Now if you are one who believes that there should be a worldwide Christian theocracy, then we have nothing further to discuss.
 
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